Gameday Round 10- Etihad Stadium: St Kilda vs Adelaide

[Boundryump]

The crows don't play as a team there is definitely something going on with the players.
In one passage of play i think it was Sloane who made a great smother and none of the crows players come over to give the guy a pat on the head and some encouragement.
Someone should also teach them to shepherd instead of running along side their team mates and watching them get tackled......WTF is up with these guys.

 

[jenny61_99]

For gods sake, prior to this week we've won every last quarter for the month fairly convincingly, and yet all of a sudden when we go to water its a fitness issue? How many excuses can we make before we begin to question mental application?

As far as these so called positives... i heard this exact same routine after the bulldogs game. 5 weeks later and NOTHING has changed.

I dont think the blindness is in the people who think somethings very wrong. Id say the 'oh we're going along swimmingly, milkshake and cookies for all' crowd are the ones with their vision lacking.

Some good points there ST... but here's some others to consider?

• Have we had the same team for the last 5 weeks enabling us to build on a "team" plan or have we been peppered with constant changes to the side which hasn't allowed any level of continuity? It's not an excuse, but it can maybe account for the appearance that nothing has changed? Things have changed, and we are making some progress but we still can't put a 4 quarter effort together.
• I don't think you can argue that fitness isn't a problem when it very clearly is. WHY is it a problem is the question, not whether it is a problem or not. There are clearly guys out on the park who are not physically right. Playing them is a mistake. Not playing them could result in BIGGER drubbings than what we've had. Lose/Lose situation.
• You say we've won every last quarter in the last month... against top 5 teams? Big difference.

 

[pjcrows]

The gold continues in this thread.

We're fortunate to follow a team that has played finals in 7 of the last 8 years. And what a bunch of morons we turn into when we have a bad year.

 

[pjcrows]

Some good points there ST... but here's some others to consider?

• Have we had the same team for the last 5 weeks enabling us to build on a "team" plan or have we been peppered with constant changes to the side which hasn't allowed any level of continuity? It's not an excuse, but it can maybe account for the appearance that nothing has changed? Things have changed, and we are making some progress but we still can't put a 4 quarter effort together.
• I don't think you can argue that fitness isn't a problem when it very clearly is. WHY is it a problem is the question, not whether it is a problem or not. There are clearly guys out on the park who are not physically right. Playing them is a mistake. Not playing them could result in BIGGER drubbings than what we've had. Lose/Lose situation.
• You say we've won every last quarter in the last month... against top 5 teams? Big difference.

Of course fitness is an issue. It was always going to be. When 15 of your 24 main group of players have severely interrupted pre-seasons, you don't catch up. Since '06 we've always been a side that has to play at it's absolute peak to win stretches of games. We have not been able to "plod out" wins like we have in the past.

We're a month behind most other teams in terms of preparation, and it shows. Two examples:
- Hawks win the bloody flag in '08. Follwing that, no pre-season. Are still feeling the effects, 2 years on.
- Fremantle shut up shop in Round 9 last year and begin to genuinely builf for 2010. Look at 'em. Same as us in 2004 - had an amazing pre-season over 2004/early 2005, a brilliant run with injury, get to a Prelim.

It's a combination of events that have lead to a shocking year. Just live with it and hopefully we get a solid pre-season in. If we do, we'll play finals.

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

My thoughts

1. For what ever reason we are suffering from inconsistency from qtr to qtr, 1st and 4th qtrs were poor and 2nd and 3rd qtrs were very good

2. Too many passengers, Walker, Petrenko, Macca, Stevens, Doughty, Porpy and Sloane

3. Lack of Star Power is hurting us, IMO Montanga, Da Santo and Hayes took the game away, we need Tippett, D-Mac and Danger to rise to the top shelf asap

 

[Cap]

I reality I can't see us winning enough games to get above 15th-13th.

Isn't it typical that we won't be getting a draft pick good enough to get a top range midfielder....unless Bock is leaving to GC.

 

[SugarShane]

• Have we had the same team for the last 5 weeks enabling us to build on a "team" plan or have we been peppered with constant changes to the side which hasn't allowed any level of continuity? It's not an excuse, but it can maybe account for the appearance that nothing has changed? Things have changed, and we are making some progress but we still can't put a 4 quarter effort together.
• I don't think you can argue that fitness isn't a problem when it very clearly is. WHY is it a problem is the question, not whether it is a problem or not. There are clearly guys out on the park who are not physically right. Playing them is a mistake. Not playing them could result in BIGGER drubbings than what we've had. Lose/Lose situation.
• You say we've won every last quarter in the last month... against top 5 teams? Big difference.

1. Every team has changes. It's super rare to see a team go unchanged for more than 2 weeks. Hell, Richmond had 4 changes this week and flogged Port.
2. So fitness is a problem this week, why hasn't it been for the last 3 games where we were putting on 5+ goal quarters?
3. Doesn't matter who we were playing, if we weren't fit, we wouldn't be able to run the games out like we did. If anything, the game being on the line should've provided a shot of adrenalin so to speak.

 

[DirrtyBee]

The crows don't play as a team there is definitely something going on with the players.
In one passage of play i think it was Sloane who made a great smother and none of the crows players come over to give the guy a pat on the head and some encouragement.
Someone should also teach them to shepherd instead of running along side their team mates and watching them get tackled......WTF is up with these guys.

I know this has nothing to do with actual playing. But why do the players run off the ground pre-game training, individually, then maybe 2 more then another 1 etc. The girls in front of us were paying out on us along the lines of "wow what a united team.."

Is this something all teams do or just us? It's probably nothing, just a thought.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Some good points there ST... but here's some others to consider?

• Have we had the same team for the last 5 weeks enabling us to build on a "team" plan or have we been peppered with constant changes to the side which hasn't allowed any level of continuity? It's not an excuse, but it can maybe account for the appearance that nothing has changed? Things have changed, and we are making some progress but we still can't put a 4 quarter effort together.

We need an unchanged team for 5 weeks? What a ridiculous standard! How many teams have had an unchanged team for 5 weeks straight this season!

I don't think you can argue that fitness isn't a problem when it very clearly is. WHY is it a problem is the question, not whether it is a problem or not. There are clearly guys out on the park who are not physically right. Playing them is a mistake. Not playing them could result in BIGGER drubbings than what we've had. Lose/Lose situation.

Im arguing that we cant selectively apply the 'fitness' excuse when we lose a last quarter, forgetting the games which we won the last quarter. I also dont believe we exist in a vaccum when it comes to injured players. Saints had people hurting out there last night too.

You say we've won every last quarter in the last month... against top 5 teams? Big difference.

Self fufilling prophesy.

Brisbane beat us and they're sitting at 6-4 and well within striking range of the top four. We beat St Kilda and they're suddenly back in the pack.

BTW, either we're fit or we're not. Saints being a good team shouldnt make us any more or less fit.

 

[pjcrows]

Yeah, we're fortunate to not have won anything this decade.

Here is a list of clubs that have won a Premiership and played finals in 10 of the last 15 years:

Adelaide (2 Premierships, 10 finals series)
West Coast (1 Premiership, 10 finals series)
Geelong (2 Premierships, 10 finals series)
Sydney (1 Premiership, 10 finals series)

Teams that haven't:

The other 12.

Like it or not, our supporters are acting like a bunch of spoilt kids this year.

 

[StuPendus]

Oh, Im sorry for coming onto the Port Power board, I thought I'd clicked the Adelaide board.

Sorry once again.

 

[Crow-mo]

Some good points there ST... but here's some others to consider?

• Have we had the same team for the last 5 weeks enabling us to build on a "team" plan or have we been peppered with constant changes to the side which hasn't allowed any level of continuity? It's not an excuse, but it can maybe account for the appearance that nothing has changed? Things have changed, and we are making some progress but we still can't put a 4 quarter effort together.

• 
  
  when does anyone have the same team for 5 weeks, have our opposition?
  
  
  

  [*]I don't think you can argue that fitness isn't a problem when it very clearly is. WHY is it a problem is the question, not whether it is a problem or not. There are clearly guys out on the park who are not physically right. Playing them is a mistake. Not playing them could result in BIGGER drubbings than what we've had. Lose/Lose situation.

  
  it very clearly is not. what it is, is not clear.
  
  it wasn't an issue in recent weeks.
  
  

  [*]You say we've won every last quarter in the last month... against top 5 teams? Big difference.

big difference? says who.

are you now saying the distinction between top 5 and other teams is a superior fitness base? that's a new one.

 

[Crow-mo]

Of course fitness is an issue. It was always going to be. When 15 of your 24 main group of players have severely interrupted pre-seasons, you don't catch up.

please link to when you first said that?

thanks

 

[Crow-mo]

1. Every team has changes. It's super rare to see a team go unchanged for more than 2 weeks. Hell, Richmond had 4 changes this week and flogged Port.
2. So fitness is a problem this week, why hasn't it been for the last 3 games where we were putting on 5+ goal quarters?
3. Doesn't matter who we were playing, if we weren't fit, we wouldn't be able to run the games out like we did. If anything, the game being on the line should've provided a shot of adrenalin so to speak.

precisely.

 

[Crow-mo]

Here is a list of clubs that have won a Premiership and played finals in 10 of the last 15 years:

Adelaide (2 Premierships, 10 finals series)
West Coast (1 Premiership, 10 finals series)
Geelong (2 Premierships, 10 finals series)
Sydney (1 Premiership, 10 finals series)

Teams that haven't:

The other 12.

Like it or not, our supporters are acting like a bunch of spoilt kids this year.

look that is just clumsy. everyone knows we won a couple of flags 13 years ago. nor did anyone think that gave the club a get of jail free card for the next 15 or so years.

ps. will be looking forward to seeing that link.

 

[kickavic]

I mostly agree... but I would also say more than any other game I have seen this year... the umpires added about 4 goals to the Saints score line. So would assess this as about a 4 goal loss. Add to that we had a number of passengers in Stevens, Sloane, Walker, Porplyzia and a few others that faded in and out (i.e McLeod, Thompson) with some school boy errors from school boy players (Schmidt, Davis)...

That there was the game... I only hope the run added to the fitness/development of our players rather than further injure them.

and how many potential goals for us were saved by the umps?

 

[sworc36]

[/LIST]We need an unchanged team for 5 weeks? What a ridiculous standard! How many teams have had an unchanged team for 5 weeks straight this season!

None of course but that depends on who is out. Do you think that Port are more a chance to win with Brogan or without? I knew as soon as he wasnt playing that Port were going to lose. Of course you can replace some players but not having Stiffy in the backline, I believe has cost us our running power. Our defence has had Bock and Stiffy missing in certain games this year and has being replaced by kids. When you start unsettling postions on a team, especially in one area, every team will suffer.

Im arguing that we cant selectively apply the 'fitness' excuse when we lose a last quarter, forgetting the games which we won the last quarter. I also dont believe we exist in a vaccum when it comes to injured players. Saints had people hurting out there last night too.

We seem to have one bad quarter each game...Brisbane being the exception..Last night reminded me of the Showdown, we played 3 good quarters then run out of steam in the last..Self fulfilling prophesy?????


Self fufilling prophesy.

Brisbane beat us and they're sitting at 6-4 and well within striking range of the top four. We beat St Kilda and they're suddenly back in the pack.

BTW, either we're fit or we're not. Saints being a good team shouldnt make us any more or less fit.

I dont think the Saints made us look any more fit..they just took full advantage of it..just like Port did a few weeks back.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Here is a list of clubs that have won a Premiership and played finals in 10 of the last 15 years:

Adelaide (2 Premierships, 10 finals series)
West Coast (1 Premiership, 10 finals series)
Geelong (2 Premierships, 10 finals series)
Sydney (1 Premiership, 10 finals series)

Teams that haven't:

The other 12.

Like it or not, our supporters are acting like a bunch of spoilt kids this year.

So if we keep extending our measures further and further back to include premierships that we won long ago, we look impressive? Did those two premierships mean that this entire decade was meaningless, and we had no need to win a premiership during it? I dont think so.

How about a list of clubs that have won premierships in the naughties. We're not on it, correct? Thats despite having a period of time in which we enjoyed the peak of many of our clubs greatest players, all at once?

We shouldnt be thankful that we've failed to deliever the major prize this decade, and we now seem further away from it than ever before. Simply making the finals is not good enough. Win cups.

 

[pjcrows]

So if we keep extending our measures further and further back to include premierships that we won long ago, we look impressive? Did those two premierships mean that this entire decade was meaningless, and we had no need to win a premiership during it? I dont think so.

How about a list of clubs that have won premierships in the naughties. We're not on it, correct? Thats despite having a period of time in which we enjoyed the peak of many of our clubs greatest players, all at once?

We shouldnt be thankful that we've failed to deliever the major prize this decade, and we now seem further away from it than ever before. Simply making the finals is not good enough. Win cups.

I'm a realist, and I'm not going to try and convince you of otherwise because I generally enjoy reading your posts on here. Cheers

 

[Macjoe]

Is it the case that anything except a Premiership is failure? For whom are Cups the ONLY issue?

Is it the players? I know most players say the greatest thing that can happen is to win a premiership. Fair enough, but there must be other rewards that keep them playing, or how else would the perennial bottom-runners keep a list? And a good enough list to develop into front-runners over time, in some cases?

Or is this the view of the Clubmen – the committee-men, board members, coaches and staff who feel they have an extra right to determine what THEIR club does? After all, they’ve put their heart and soul into it, haven’t they? But it is still true that no club wins cups very often, so they must have other motivation as well. Perhaps it is their pride in their club, their insider status and monetary rewards. Or perhaps the buzz of each individual win, great goal, mark or developing player that keeps them going on when cups seem a distant memory.

Is it the supporters for whom Premierships are the ONLY issue? If so, not for me, and I am a supporter. Like most, I support the club through the bad times as well as the good. Like most, there are aspects of the club I would like to see changed. But I am not happy for the club to stop striving to win the moment a premiership season seems unlikely. That generates the Carlton/Richmond culture that doesn’t attract me – the one that says striving be dammed, ethics be dammed, the cup is all. That leads to cheating, club disintegration and horse poo on the doorstep.

When we watch the home games, in good weather or bad, Friday night, Saturday arvo or Sunday evening, we want to watch the team win, and if they can’t we still want to see them play well. I do expect young players to be blooded, and understand that they must have chances to learn at the highest level. Much as I love the club champions and stalwarts, I have understood the need to move them on – often before they think they are ready, so that younger legs have positions in the side to strive for. But the balance between developing new players and maintaining a winning mindset in a side where positions need to be earned must be kept. And always, making the finals should still be a major goal.

Because for any team that makes the finals, those cups are still a possibility, even if remote. Of course top four is better, but 8th is still better than 9th, or more to the point of this debate, better than 16th. The wins on the way and the glorious anticipation of September make a top 8 position of value in its own right, even at the expense of that high draft pick.

If only Cups matter, and the Club hasn’t won one in 12 years, why are we still supporters? It was not the anticipation of glory that led us to join the club in the first place, although we desired it. We followed the Crows from day 1, but didn’t become members until the kids were old enough for the rigours of travelling to matches, around 95/96. Crows were 11th in 95, 12th in 96, so 97 and 98 were unexpected and glorious bonuses. There was the mounting excitement during the season, the build-up, living on the edge during the finals, plotting and planning (unfortunately without success) how to get to the ‘G. When the Crows won we drove down to Adelaide with the kids for the processions and got over-excited (plus some autographs) when the cup came to Whyalla.

But the thrills and joy weren’t confined to that one week in September – in 98 particularly the anticipation over the whole year was almost as important as the result. Yes, the Cup is the Grail: that prize above all prizes to be yearned for and fought for. But it isn’t the only prize. Each win is a prize, each week after a win is happier and more fun. And having achieved the ultimate, the possibility of doing it again, the wins on the way, the time spent studying the table working out the possible futures are all small prizes.

That potential to revisit the Grail is what makes supporting this club so important for me, and over the 12 seasons since 98 it has happened 8 times – including every year since 05. And in the five years: 05 to 09 we won 72 out of a possible 110 home and away games. That is effectively 2 out of every 3 games. Considering the many of us who sit in the stands cheering home games and avidly watch the away games on TV week in, week out for season on season, 2 wins out of every 3 games is another huge prize. (Yes, Commander, I know to a mathematician it is really something like 1.9636367 out of 3, but it’s very close to 2/3).

The fact that finals results have not been up to this standard has made September less fulfilling, but the good months from March to October have still been gratefully received. I can be disappointed with the failure to achieve the ultimate prize and still be grateful for the lesser prizes of a season. To value those lesser moments as well as the ultimate in no way equates to being satisfied with mediocrity. As supporters we hope for better, but if mediocrity occurs we don’t give everything up and quit supporting until next year, we look for improvement: immediate, medium and long term improvement.

Even this year, at 2 and 8: only 1 win in 5, knowing that the Club will TRY to do the impossible and win 10 of the last 12 makes dreaming possible, and that is a prize, too.

I don’t believe for a moment it will happen, and I am sure that we will go to the break needing to win every match in the second half of the season to get into the finals, but I am proud that our club will keep trying. Listening to NC presser Saturday, I know that even after we can’t make the finals, trying to win with a team of players who deserve their selection will still be the goal. And that pleases me, because we supporters haven’t quit either. We will still be at every home game, and want to know the team will be planning and expecting to win. It will be a bonus that young players will be getting needed game time, not the only goal.

Reading this, I could understand you asking if I think it is all about me.

And the truth is: Yes, my support and membership IS all about me. It is a choice, not a duty, and I am willing to pay highly for it. I support the club for the pleasure and added meaning the whole deal of being a supporter (including the BF experience) gives to my life. I expect the Club to work with values similar to mine, and to consider my welfare as one of their goals. In return, I will respect their efforts, respect our people and contribute as I can.

 

[jenny61_99]

Absolutely BRILLIANT!

Thank you for sharing your insights.

 

[Allefgib]

Good post MacJoe. Lots of great emotional content and inspriation.

Picking up on some of your themes, as I've been thinking of how to artciulate this lately myself, I like to boil it down and say we are all supporting the guys to 'win'. And we always living in 'hope of a win' (and I'd argue thats 50% of the emotional satisfaction if its true hope)

So what is 'win'?

Well week to week we have a chance to win games and each week that's what keeps us cheering and yellling and living with optimism. Each week we live in hope (that 50% factor, something you alluded to feeling alot in '98) of that 'win' as well.

If we do enough of that we are good enough to play finals. We then live and hope for the winning of those games. We also live in the hope of making the finals each year.

If we win enough of those we are playing for grail and hope to win that.

So in some kind of perverse mathematical model of the emotional drive behind that you might say:

1 finals win is the emotional equivalent of winning 5-10 regular season wins
1 cup win is equivalent to winning 100 regular season wins
(thinking of a player having a long successful career of 100 wins that he would trade for one premiership)

Numbers obviously arguable and clumsy - but I think you can see the point I'm making.

So looking at it in that context what you hope the club is doing is threefold:
1. Doing their best , each week to win the game they are playing with the players playing. Even if we lose we can still have 0.5 'joy factor' by having EACH week, our BEST on display
2. Managing the various factors to play finals to get the 'five-fold to ten-fold' reward of winning a final. Also looking each week like we are a finals side keeps another 2.5 -5 joy factor on top of the 0.5 joy factor for winning the next game. You're sitting in the 8 and steady you're carrying 4.0 -6.0 joy factor in your pocket each and every week! (1 for the win and 1-5 for the hope of winning the next and to play and win finals)
3. Manging the various factors to ensure we are building to the 'hundred-fold' reward of a cup. So if you're a Geelong supporter you're probably carrying around 50+ joy factor with you at the moment They have great hope that if they make the finals they play a brand of football and have proven ability to win the cup. Aka 98 - what a feeling eh!!!

Where things go haywire and need careful management:
You can't get to 3 without 2.
You can't get to 2 without 1.
You can't get to 2 without planning OUTSIDE of what is required to do 1.
To get to 3 you need to manage things a little differently than just getting to 2.

What some people are saying is that maybe we've done enough to achieve alot to put us in a situation to get to 2.
However we dont' seem to have done enough to actually achieve 2 often enough, and therefore had no chance for the big one-hundred fold return of 3.

That's why many crows supporters the last few years, and especially this year, have a 'diminished' joy factor - they believe that whilst we can do 1. pretty well for a reasonable 'joy factor' return - are we actually doing enough to provide hope of and reality of the big returns?