Geelong vs Collingwood - 2011 Grand Final

[TheLip]

But no one is. All that writing for nothing, ey TheLip

Oh dear, it took 3 seconds to find someone who begs to differ and in this very thread!

They were outscored and outplayed in both Round 8, Round 24 and the prelim.

 

[Churros]

Funny, I didn't see where anyone did blame round 8 on umpires.

Yeah?

Quite right. The Pies didn't look the same in that game or since. No coincidence that they have won every game that mattered this year bar one and that was stolen from us by the umps and you guys are crowing about a dead rubber. Oh well we shall see what we shall see but I personally hope the cats go in brimming with confidence!

Straight into your own trap

I simply pointed out that it would be foolish to draw any confidence from a game which if correctly umpired would most likely have been a win to us. Nice to see that you agree with me though.

I agree, I don't take any confidence from Round 8. Simple May football. But a win is a win, and to blame it on the umps is stupid.

I still don't see who is taking any confidence from the two games, but okay keep up this unbacked drivel

 

[Churros]

Oh dear, it took 3 seconds to find someone who begs to differ and in this very thread!

Did Maxy say "Collingwood was outscored and outplayed in round 8 and round 24. Therefore Geelong is better and I have full confidence we will beat them in the GF"? No. You misread the comment. Take things as you see it, don't jump to conclusions

 

[TheLip]

Yeah?

Straight into your own trap




I agree, I don't take any confidence from Round 8. Simple May football. But a win is a win, and to blame it on the umps is stupid.

I still don't see who is taking any confidence from the two games, but okay keep up this unbacked drivel

Of course if you couldn't read you'd have missed this...

The point being that whilst we were outplayed statistically we were good enough to find a way to win or to at least give ourselves a chance. I am happy to concede round 8 regardless because I recognise that umpires make mistakes all the time but if you're drawing some great feeling of superiority from that or from round 24 then I think your confidence is misplaced.

but fortunately most people who come here can. How very embarrasing for you that you clearly can't.

 

[maxy87]

Hilarious. Because I This means I somehow believe that my side is superior or all conquering. Nice of you to paint your comments as somehow a reasoned analysis of events whilst the same coming back at you is somehow to be regarded as unreasonable ramblings. I have said all along that Geelong have form coming in and are even now favourites to win. I am certainly not writing them off nor have I ever. I have simply pointed out that if you draw confidence from a game that clearly could have gone either way based on a single umpiring decision or a dead rubber in which one side clearly went in with completely foreign structures in place and a number of players missing then I believe you're delusional.

Pots and kettles, pots and kettles.

I never said you believe they are all conquering. I said perhaps you are not used to criticical discourse and FWIW I don't believe it was the same coming back at me but that's fine we'll move on. Let's just stick to the topic shall we.

I agree with you that uncertainty and subjectivity around umpiring decisions goes both ways, which is why I made my original point that the Pies were lucky on Friday, as the Cats arguably were too in R8. But remove those incidents and look at KPI's, it paints a very different picture and provides a very valid discussion point.

 

[TheLip]

I agree with you that uncertainty and subjectivity around umpiring decisions goes both ways, which is why I made my original point that the Pies were lucky on Friday, as the Cats arguably were too in R8. But remove those incidents and look at KPI's, it paints a very different picture and provides a very valid discussion point.

The problem with KPI's is that they so frequently lie. Last year it was stated emphatically on a few occasions by commentators (Blight comes to mind) that there was no way Collingwood would win a flag with it's style of kicking around the boundary. This year there have been equally as many occasions when the statistically superior side has failed to capitalise on that superiority. In the end finals are won on pure guts and determination unless there is a gulf between them skill wise or confidence wise. Saturday starts as a pure fifty-fifty and much will hinge on which team handles the pressure best. Both have shown that they can.

 

[TheLip]

Did Maxy say "Collingwood was outscored and outplayed in round 8 and round 24. Therefore Geelong is better and I have full confidence we will beat them in the GF"? No. You misread the comment. Take things as you see it, don't jump to conclusions

No, Clearly he said that because he wanted me to know how inferior Geelong were and didn't draw anything from it at all.

 

[randomhero24]

God people are dumb.

"Well...Collingwood nearly lost last week, so i think Geelong will win."

The most infantile train of thought you could have.

 

[Churros]

The point being that whilst we were outplayed statistically we were good enough to find a way to win or to at least give ourselves a chance. I am happy to concede round 8 regardless because I recognise that umpires make mistakes all the time but if you're drawing some great feeling of superiority from that or from round 24 then I think your confidence is misplaced.

If you're so happy to concede it, why would you complain about it in the first place? Why couldn't you mention that you could deal with it then?

Of course if you couldn't read you'd have missed this...

but fortunately most people who come here can. How very embarrasing for you that you clearly can't.

How nice. I point out a flaw in your argument, and even tell you how I agree with you in another post, and then I get told I can't read. Leave that stuff for Bay 13. Your slight attempts at humor would be better appreciated there

 

[Churros]

No, Clearly he said that because he wanted me to know how inferior Geelong were and didn't draw anything from it at all.

He was pointing out a flaw in your argument by calling it a dead rubber and blaming the game on the umps. He never subscribed to anything.

We don't need to prove that we're better than you on current form. Can't see any Cats fan trying to either.

 

[Churros]

God people are dumb.

"Well...Collingwood nearly lost last week, so i think Geelong will win."

The most infantile train of thought you could have.

Agree Still a 50/50 game in my eyes, but our form in the past 2 finals were undoubtedly better. Has no say in the GF though.

 

[maxy87]

The problem with KPI's is that they so frequently lie. Last year it was stated emphatically on a few occasions by commentators (Blight comes to mind) that there was no way Collingwood would win a flag with it's style of kicking around the boundary. This year there have been equally as many occasions when the statistically superior side has failed to capitalise on that superiority. In the end finals are won on pure guts and determination unless there is a gulf between them skill wise or confidence wise. Saturday starts as a pure fifty-fifty and much will hinge on which team handles the pressure best. Both have shown that they can.

I agree in a sense that in the absence of qualitative analysis or interpretation, KPI's are just numbers and figures. It would be very naive to suggest that intangible factors that can't have a number placed on them (fitness, courage, emotion etc) do not play a part.

But in this context, the pies were said to be the best in the league by a country mile. Statistically, this was thought to be true also. What we've since seen is I guess a criteria for matching (or superseding) the pies on a given day. KPIs make up a large part of that criteria because they enable us to interpret why the pies were so far ahead, what others need to do to bridge the gap and why the gap was bridged (If it has been) In terms of why they are so damaging, you look at the midfield numbers and the stats that indicate the effectiveness of the forward press (tackles inside 50, inside 50s, scoring shots, time in forward half, pressure acts). When looking at how well a side can counteract this you could look at kick to handball ratio, long kicks, contested marks, clearances and probably contested possession

 

[frantelle]

Should be no excuses from the losing side. At the minimum I'm expecting a tough bruising affair with both teams giving it their all. I'm content with Geelong going in as favourites, they deserve it and are flying, but thats not to say we don't have a claim to the flag either, after all we have had a fantastic season also.

Best team on the day will win, plain and simple and anyone who is certain of a result going either way is blinded by prejudice.

 

[TheLip]

If you're so happy to concede it, why would you complain about it in the first place? Why couldn't you mention that you could deal with it then?

Pardon me if I don't happen to post everything I have ever thought about everything in the world in every post I make! It might wind up taking up a bit too much space on the BF server!

How nice. I point out a flaw in your argument, and even tell you how I agree with you in another post, and then I get told I can't read. Leave that stuff for Bay 13. Your slight attempts at humor would be better appreciated there

WTF??? As far as I can tell there have been no flaws and I don't understand why you would point it out as a flaw anyway and then agree with it in another post. Someone once mentioned to me that there is a concept on internet forums called self pwnage. Never quite understood it until now!

 

[TheLip]

I agree in a sense that in the absence of qualitative analysis or interpretation, KPI's are just numbers and figures. It would be very naive to suggest that intangible factors that can't have a number placed on them (fitness, courage, emotion etc) do not play a part.

But in this context, the pies were said to be the best in the league by a country mile. Statistically, this was thought to be true also. What we've since seen is I guess a criteria for matching (or superseding) the pies on a given day. KPIs make up a large part of that criteria because they enable us to interpret why the pies were so far ahead, what others need to do to bridge the gap and why the gap was bridged (If it has been) In terms of why they are so damaging, you look at the midfield numbers and the stats that indicate the effectiveness of the forward press (tackles inside 50, inside 50s, scoring shots, time in forward half, pressure acts). When looking at how well a side can counteract this you could look at kick to handball ratio, long kicks, contested marks, clearances and probably contested possession

Not sure what you're trying to say here. The media say lots of things. It doesn't make them true by any stretch. Results are what count from where I sit.

 

[HandyHawks94]

im not happy thats its a channel 10 telecast, im going to have such an anxious time in the last quarter with that 5 minute warning they use

 

[Adz]

Imagine if it was a draw! Would be an outcry!

 

[winty]

im not happy thats its a channel 10 telecast, im going to have such an anxious time in the last quarter with that 5 minute warning they use

I'm glad 10 are telecasting it. We've previously been televised twice in grand finals on 10 for 2 wins (2007 and 2009), while Collingwood have been televised twice in grand finals on 10 for 2 losses (2002 and 2003).

 

[topic97]

im not happy thats its a channel 10 telecast, im going to have such an anxious time in the last quarter with that 5 minute warning they use

Yeah it frays nerves alright - try watching the 09 Grand Final......

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

Whatever the analysis, KPI's, preperation or previous result; it all counts for nothing unless you get up on Saturday!

50-50 down the middle, about as even a contest as you could possibly hope for.

 

[maxy87]

Not sure what you're trying to say here. The media say lots of things. It doesn't make them true by any stretch. Results are what count from where I sit.

Yes results are the final measure of course but it's still interesting to read stats and get an idea for how things are going. For example, what inference could you draw from Geelong having a much lower kick to handball ratio this year? Or Collingwood having a high time inside forward fifty earlier in the year? They won't tell you the result of a game but can indicate why certain things happen or can go some way to indicating form.

 

[Twenty 11 Pies]

I'm glad 10 are telecasting it. We've previously been televised twice in grand finals on 10 for 2 wins (2007 and 2009), while Collingwood have been televised twice in grand finals on 10 for 2 losses (2002 and 2003).

I'm not. Its not being telecast in HD. Not on One this year due to moto grand prix.
HD makes a massive difference.

 

[caitsith01]

I'm not. Its not being telecast in HD. Not on One this year due to moto grand prix.
HD makes a massive difference.

Are you serious? That is %#$^ pathetic.

 

[maxy87]

Whatever the analysis, KPI's, preperation or previous result; it all counts for nothing unless you get up on Saturday!

50-50 down the middle, about as even a contest as you could possibly hope for.

Is it uncomfortable sitting on that fence?

But seriously, form, KPI's, fitness must count for something even if it's just to kill time shooting the breeze about the game in anticipation

 

[Churros]

Stevie J has been named in the official Cats team for the GF.

That guy is not human, I swear