No Oppo Supporters General AFL Discussion #12 - Carlton Posters ONLY!

[AceAndy]

It’s not helped that in a panic Gil said he’d have the committee set up in 24 hours. We’re all still waiting.


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I thought he said 48 hours but it was over a week ago and there hasnt been any announcement yet. I wonder if they are having trouble finding people tp participate in the review.

 

[My Hat]

We have reached a sad point as a society if we are now prepared to assume that somebody is guilty of anything based purely upon another person's allegations.

I think the issue is that we humans don't do well with uncertainty. We hear allegations, which are by definition uncertain -- maybe they did it, maybe not, maybe something in between. So we instinctively want to collapse the uncertainty to something definite, either treating the person as if they were guilty or treating the person as if the accusations didn't exist. Saying someone is 'innocent until proven guilty' can be an example of the latter -- that's a legal concept which means you don't subject someone to legal punishment until allegations are proven, but it often gets used far more broadly.

As a society we don't really have a good handle on what it means to appropriately treat someone not as unquestionably innocent, not as unquestionably guilty, but as if serious, as yet unproven allegations have been made against them.

 

[Gethelred]

I hope you aren't suggesting that I am being unfair in my post - Clarkson has reserved his right and in fact makes it clear that he will he will not hesitate to protect his position and reputation....

Nah. Wasn't a crack at any particular post, more against the emerging narrative that the statement was any measure of a change to the status quo.

 

[RedFury]

Without the original investigation and subsequent report from Russell Jackson - would we ever find out about this? Who has faith in the AFL to run their own internal investigation that threatens the reputation and image of not just the league but two very high profile coaches. Did we learn nothing from the * drug scandal on the lengths the AFL will go to manage a situation to protect their image.

Without the ABC investigation, this would still be hidden within the AFL integrity unit to be buried permanently or quietly dealt with some payouts and non-disclosure agreements and a media release during the xmas break with a 'we have acted on a small misunderstanding, nothing to see here'.

So true.

The AFL try to put out the vibe of impartial referee/investigator/mediator but in reality they have massive skin in the game - it's all about brand damage control.

 

[DangerousD]

I was flicking through the HS today whilst having a coffe and came across an article featuring Newbold, the article had pictures of emails sent to his email address, showing proof the lady in the ABC article sent multiple emails and was dismissed by Newbold.

If anyone hasn’t read it, have a look.

Despite physical evidence of Newbold receiving the emails, replying to the emails, he denies that it was him, claims someone replied on his behalf.

He then goes on to say he checked his email in the month of May and there was no email, to which he was told, it was March. His response was, Whatever, I didn’t write it.

Its 2022, what is it with people in positions of authority getting caught out, then deapite evidence, just claiming it didn’t happen.

The whole article smelt of a guy in panic mode

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

How is this the AFLs fault?
Isn’t this a Hawthorn report leaked to the ABC?

The AFL rules the roost....

and i'm not talking about the 'leak'.

 

[RPCB]

Inb4 Collingwood takes on 60% of JDG’s contract when they get rid of him in 2 years because they realise they can’t afford the entire 100%.

 

[FRUMPY]

Inb4 Collingwood takes on 60% of JDG’s contract when they get rid of him in 2 years because they realise they can’t afford the entire 100%.

haha yeah clubs lining up for a 2024 firesale trade as we speak

 

[lily of laguna]

Not saying it is their fault, but Hawthorn (rightfully) handed the report to the AFL a couple of weeks before Jackson's article was published, which was 9 days ago. They still haven't set up an investigation into the report/events.

This is a great point. It has been stated that the afl had the report from hawks for 2 weeks prior to the abc releasing their exposè.
Despite the hawthorn report being 'sickening' and 'disturbing' and whatever else Gil described it as, it was only when this was brought to public light that they afl decided to set up a panel.
*ing afl again just playing at doing the right thing, when they should set up a panel to investigate as soon as they had read and digested the report.

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[FRUMPY]

This is a great point. It has been stated that the afl had the report from hawks for 2 weeks prior to the abc releasing their exposè.
Despite the hawthorn report being 'sickening' and 'disturbing' and whatever else Gil described it as, it was only when this was brought to public light that they afl decided to set up a panel.
*ing afl again just playing at doing the right thing, when they should set up a panel to investigate as soon as they had read and digested the report.

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they set up their usual panel of 4 -

 

[skadoosh]

Papley signs a 5 year contract extension with the Swans until 2028.

 

[FRUMPY]

Papley signs a 5 year contract extension with the Swans until 2028.

only 26, figured he'd be 28 by now.

great for the swans

 

[Aphrodite]

 

[Stamos]

Question, how many AFL clubs have senile drunks on their Board?

(Mods, feel free to move this post to the * thread if it is more appropriate)

 

[blue healer]

Some of the responses in here prove how dangerous and effective it can be at tainting at an individuals long earned stellar reputation.

The damages will be huge in this one. Clarko has fired off a warning shot across the accusers bows.

Civil or criminal, there are consequences if you are found to have defamed someone.

Not like we haven't had more than a few stellar reputations left in tatters when some truths emerge.

 

[blue healer]

Completely disagree on this. It's literally the role of the 4th estate to ask questions and investigate issues that may not otherwise come to light.

Pretty important noting that said journo isn't quoting just one person as well.

 

[blue healer]

Yes. This should have all been kept behind closed doors because we all know that’s the only way the truth comes out and justice is served

You forgot to add......in the AFL

 

[RPCB]

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

The problem and dangerous issue about the ABC 'leaked' report about the the alleged scandal at the Hawthorn Football Club is that it not only encourages victim blaming and shaming, but also automatic assumptions of guilt (or otherwise) against Clarkson, Fagan and other people involved in those allegations

Unfortunately, given prior history and precedence, Gil and the AFL commission would have likely buried this scandal under the carpet and tried to pay the alleged victims off, the reporter in question (Russell Jackson) had every right to take his findings to the ABC, I really don't care about the feelings of Clarkson and Fagan at this point given how severe the allegations are, they do not deserve the benefit the doubt until conclusively proven otherwise.

 

[sbwan]

The problem and dangerous issue about the ABC 'leaked' report about the the alleged scandal at the Hawthorn Football Club is that it not only encourages victim blaming and shaming, but also automatic assumptions of guilt (or otherwise) against Clarkson, Fagan and other people involved in those allegations

Unfortunately, given prior history and precedence, Gil and the AFL commission would have likely buried this scandal under the carpet and tried to pay the alleged victims off, the reporter in question (Russell Jackson) had every right to take his findings to the ABC, I really don't care about the feelings of Clarkson and Fagan at this point given how severe the allegations are, they do not deserve the benefit the doubt until conclusively proven otherwise.

The benefit of the doubt is an interesting point. In reality, we all make judgments on how likely we think allegations are to be true and there's nothing necessarily wrong with this. I personally make an initial assessment based on how credible the allegations are, any motivations people have to lie, any corroboration, other possible explanations, how it lines up with peoples' past behaviours. My personal evaluation is that the allegations seem true enough that there are real issues for the people involved. There's some possible grey as well - for example around the abortion talk if it was raised as a possibility by Hawthorn staff and the player involved given the context perceived pressure in favour of the option where perhaps those involved would argue there was not. The supposed corroboration by the assistant coach and Sam Mitchell that there was an unhealthy level of control over players on the one hand may make it less of a 'race' issue (debatable), but on the other hand provides pretty strong tendency evidence that support these allegations having truth to them. I.e. that Hawthorn coaching staff were willing to very much overstep into players' lives, including in regards to families.

That's a long way of saying that there is enough in the public for me not to give Clarkson et al the benefit of the doubt. Just from what I know from what is public and using my own logic, it seems more likely than unlikely that they've done the wrong thing here. But I'm open to my mind being changed, I just don't think the 'default' in the eyes of public opinion needs to be that they are completely innocent.

With regards to any consequences they face in the meantime (e.g. being stood down), I think it should be treated similarly to how we treat bail where people are charged but haven't been proven guilty of anything yet. It's more of a protective measure - is there any risk of harm being done to players if they came back to coach now but are found guilty later? I'd say pretty unlikely, so I don't have an issue with Clarkson/Fagan going back to coach if those clubs want them to. But they'd have to accept the distraction and disruption of the inquiry/ies.

 

[BigFrizz36]

I feel a bit for North. Like us they got themselves into a bad spot by making poor decisions. Unlike us they don't have a huge supporter base to lean on to help them out.

They work hard to get a coup by signing Clarkson which blows up in their faces through no fault of theirs.

Then Horne-Frsncis confirms that he is s bot of a sooky la la by requesting a trade home after one year of being a petulant child.

Fair enough appointing Shaw and Noble were poor decisions as was their last CEO. However imagine if Bryce Gibbs had bailed on us in year 1 - we would have been gutted. Similarly we could now be in limbo having appointed Clarkson.

 

[Coona Blues]

I feel a bit for North. Like us they got themselves into a bad spot by making poor decisions. Unlike us they don't have a huge supporter base to lean on to help them out.

They work hard to get a coup by signing Clarkson which blows up in their faces through no fault of theirs.

Then Horne-Frsncis confirms that he is s bot of a sooky la la by requesting a trade home after one year of being a petulant child.

Fair enough appointing Shaw and Noble were poor decisions as was their last CEO. However imagine if Bryce Gibbs had bailed on us in year 1 - we would have been gutted. Similarly we could now be in limbo having appointed Clarkson.

Absolute lunacy Port offering JHF $800,000 per season on what he has displayed. Ultra debatable if he is as good in field as many thought. To reward his petulant behaviour and refusal to buy in to basic club standards is a massive red flag. So much projects a kid believing his own press, who will never toe the line. Those standards apply to the rank and file, not to ME.

 

[BigFrizz36]

What north need to do is get on the front foot as quickly as possible.

Appoint Yze as Co coach on the understanding that he will be coach if Clarkson is wiped out. From all accounts he is the best of the remainders.

Gives them tge opportunity to keep operating now, recruiting players etc rather than the stalemate that they are currently in.

 

[Jatz]

What north need to do is get on the front foot as quickly as possible.

Appoint Yze as Co coach on the understanding that he will be coach if Clarkson is wiped out. From all accounts he is the best of the remainders.

Gives them tge opportunity to keep operating now, recruiting players etc rather than the stalemate that they are currently in.

Why would Yze agree to that?

 

[BigFrizz36]

Why would Yze agree to that?

Because there is a 98% chance that he will be the senior coach by the start of next season.? There aren't many that think that some of the mud wont stick to Clarkson.

At worst he would be co coach - provided he gets on with Clarkson that's a win. Better than being stuffed around by the Giants and * for no outcome.