Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Brett C]

Whatever the outcome of this inquiry the AFL is now undertaking, Fagan, Clarkson and several others are going to be tried and convicted by media and will be labelled racists for the remainder of their lives. This isn't isolated to just them either. Their families will have to live with this shadow hanging over them as well.....found guilty or not guilty....it wont matter.

I support this investigation by Hawthorn, but I dont support the way it has been reported or the results presented until everyone has been investigated and an overall summary has been done along with a plan moving forward.

One thing is for sure 100%, we need to find a new coach.

Completely agree with most of this, one thing we need to do is stop calling whatever the Hawthorne report is an investigation.

Not a lot of investigations would avoid speaking to all parties involved, not substantiating information and just blinding accept as fact claims however implausible they are.

 

[Clarkythelion]

So here we are the day after, I've read through everything I can find - here is my thoughts.

(1) The perception of what happened by the families of the players and players themselves is real for them, I feel sorry for them and hope they get closure of this in some way.

(2) If Brisbane did the same interview of ex-players what would Albert Proud

Albert Proud

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11.5

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3.2

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2.4

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T

3.0

5star

and Ryan Hooper have to say as their perception? Every club will have stories that have 2 sides for both First Nations players and the rest of the kids drafted to clubs. Lets no judge clubs or people without all the evidence.

(3) The ABC is not a credible media outlet, they have form doing these one sided stories and have recently had to pay compensation for doing it. The are a very niche media outlet with falling ratings, their track record is not good. It is not balanced journalism to report one side of events with the outcome to destroy careers without the opportunity to defend.

(4) Hawthorne probably saw what happened at Collingwood and wondered if they have an issue. The report was commissioned, people now external to the club were interviewed and in the perception of some of those people, yes, Hawthorn had an issue. You would think due course would be for Hawthorn to continue their process of investigation and look internally to find both sides of the story. But that first step got leaked to the journalist - why, how, by whom and who would benefit from that and why that particular timing.

(5) How can those accused ever clear their names? If this could get to a court room and everyone give evidence under oath then may yes the public would see the truth but as this is, reputations will be tainted forever. I'm also sorry for those involved that may never now have an opportunity to defend themselves in a way the public can accept it.

(6) I can see with a slight twist of the situation how the staff at Hawthorne would be helping any young player that came to the club and said they needed some help. Were there other young players interviewed or just First Nations players? We have seen other clubs try so hard, some with success, some without, to keep young players on track. GWS, Eagles and the Swans for example are some that have struggled recently, a review of those cases from each side could also perceive to be against public opinion.

(7) As yet, no senior player from that era at Hawthorne has supported that there was an issue, not even they best First Nations player whom has in fact said he saw nothing but feels he should have know as he considered it his role to help young players. But maybe Rioli has hinted at something. Will we, as the public, get to see the other side of the story since this is being played out in the Public Perception court so we can judge for ourselves? At a club that had so much success in the period mentioned, that was full of great leaders now spread across the league, and that all shared a great bond, how was this kept quite there would have been a hundred or so players sharing the 'heat of battle' relationships at the time and no one said anything.

Finally - As a supporter of footy and with a partner whom is a lawyer working in the field of First Nations People I ask myself where will this end? How can it end and will it ever really end? What process can now happen that gives us all the details we need to set our conscious free. For me, only people in a situation where they are compelled to tell the truth, and what they say can be cross examined, and the consequences of what they say is evident will clear this situation up. The players and coaches that were at Hawthorn at the time are now disbursed across almost all of the other clubs in some way and many of them are in the highest of positions with many young men under their control as employers/coaches. Please AFL find a way to bring this out, have a public inquiry with some witness protection or something, maybe some Government intervention to allow a broader review given this is not really historical.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

So it's been about 24 hours, everyone comfortable with this being enough time to know how to respond to allegations of this nature, or reckon we hit send and end some careers

Yeah, pretty easy to confirm or deny if you were present in those conversations.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

(3) The ABC is not a credible media outlet, they have form doing these one sided stories and have recently had to pay compensation for doing it. The are a very niche media outlet with falling ratings, their track record is not good. It is not balanced journalism to report one side of events with the outcome to destroy careers without the opportunity to defend.

This is straight up just shooting the messenger because you don't like what they have to say. Russell Jackson has a very good reputation and broke the stories on Rod Owen and Robert Muir. You know full well that he contacted Fagan and Clarkson for comment and they didn't respond, and yet you still comment that he didn't give them an opportunity to defend themselves. How does that work?

 

[fugitive]

Fox Footy is all over it like a pack of vultures, for them it’s probably not even about the core of the issue that is racism, just whatever gets views and clicks, can’t stop that unfortunately.

Whatever the outcome of this inquiry the AFL is now undertaking, Fagan, Clarkson and several others are going to be tried and convicted by media

 

[Fitzroy bears]

Well this makes Fagan now either completely useless with electronic appliances or extremely guilty asf for not replying back to his email/voice message, regarding the allegations around him & Clarkson

Either way, this isn’t gonna be a pretty off-seasons for the AFL and the relevant clubs involved, that’s for sure

Not necessarily. He would have been advised legally not to comment in a public forum.

In this particular situation his comments should be on a legal record where they can't be miss quoted.

These are serious allegations and TBH should have been handled differently by the media. I hope they have got it right, cause if not Chris Fagan and Clarkston will have a hell of a deformation case after being named without due process

 

[Fitzroy bears]

HAving heard the likes of Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell and Burgoyne speak today, would I be naive in saying that I find it odd that these ex-Hawks are completely distancing themselves from all of this and saying they had no knowldege of this which I admit I find it hard to believe that such massive allegations didnt find its way to one, some or if not all of these players and b/c they did nothing they are all claiming ignorance - perhaps that is a long bow to draw - but I feel like I can't buy that players dont hear about this

Work places are like toilets sh#$ flows through it. There is no way that a single player, especially a first nations player and leader like Burgoyne, would not have been spoken to at some point by the players involved......this is a critical component in my view of this review

 

[Mighty Lions]

Yeah, pretty easy to confirm or deny if you were present in those conversations.

No, not if its going to be a legal challenge.

 

[pod17]

Rendell actually didn’t say it.

Adam Simpson said it, and Rendell was asked to explain what Simpson meant, on Trade Radio.

Apologies, I thought I recalled that he had spoken with Jason Misfud who then spoke with Davey (the 2012 event). However, original point still stands.

 

[Mighty Lions]

This is straight up just shooting the messenger because you don't like what they have to say. Russell Jackson has a very good reputation and broke the stories on Rod Owen and Robert Muir. You know full well that he contacted Fagan and Clarkson for comment and they didn't respond, and yet you still comment that he didn't give them an opportunity to defend themselves. How does that work?

I played footy with Rocket. His problems were much deeper than what was reported. I dont know Russell Jackson but I dont believe he is any different to any other journo who want to make theirselves relevant.
I believe the accused should have been included in the Hawthorn investigation once they were implicated well before this came out into the public arena.

 

[Brett C]

Yeah, pretty easy to confirm or deny if you were present in those conversations.

Is it though? In the last 20 years for work I will have been in conservatively 1000 team meetings, had 5000 client meetings and probably 50,000 phone calls.

Would I be expected to remember each and every interaction?

We can take a counter view which is that these statements contain a portion of truth and a portion of bullshit.

We don’t need to believe what the “victims” in this case claim until there has been an actual impartial investigation neither of which Hawthorne or ABC have done here.

 

[Brett C]

This is straight up just shooting the messenger because you don't like what they have to say. Russell Jackson has a very good reputation and broke the stories on Rod Owen and Robert Muir. You know full well that he contacted Fagan and Clarkson for comment and they didn't respond, and yet you still comment that he didn't give them an opportunity to defend themselves. How does that work?

Yep 24 hours is reasonable for something that has serious legal implications.

A reasonable person wouldn’t consider that an opportunity to properly defend themselves

 

[Fitzroy bears]

Saucery- "Regardless no one has the right to advocate abortion."

The father does.

Jeepers let's not open that can of worms on a footy forum. Please!

 

[Mighty Lions]

Saucery- "Regardless no one has the right to advocate abortion."


Jeepers let's not open that can of worms on a footy forum. Please!

It's an opinion mate. I didn't open that but I will comment if I have an opinion on a post.

 

[Fitzroy bears]

So it's been about 24 hours, everyone comfortable with this being enough time to know how to respond to allegations of this nature, or reckon we hit send and end some careers

As much as I agree with the premise of what you are saying. I don't think it is quite that cut and dry....

 

[nup]

See you all at the end of this, ciao

 

[Fitzroy bears]

It's an opinion mate. I didn't open that but I will comment if I have an opinion on a post.

I think you are far too worked up over what I posted, but you are right in what you say

 

[Clarkythelion]

This is straight up just shooting the messenger because you don't like what they have to say. Russell Jackson has a very good reputation and broke the stories on Rod Owen and Robert Muir. You know full well that he contacted Fagan and Clarkson for comment and they didn't respond, and yet you still comment that he didn't give them an opportunity to defend themselves. How does that work?

No he didn't. 24 hours notice by email to the club's Information line is not sitting down with them and giving them the same option he gave the player's families. He would not produce the story on his own, the Editor at the ABC would have to approve it for release and it would have been run through legal before release knowing the ramifications. It reeks of the Christian Porter case which the ABC had to pay compensation for which was one sided and against the wishes of the persons family. I'm mot shooting the messenger, I' just asking why the obscure ABC, why that timing, and who befits.

 

[Squizz89]

It’s obviously very early on and who knows what will happen and how long it will take but it would be nice to know the clubs position in terms of how long we can keep Fages “stood down” as opposed to being replaced, at least in the interim for next year.

I would assume we’ve given ourselves a bit of time now as you’d hope the list change/movements etc have all been locked in and we probably don’t have to do to much until preseason starts from an actual coaching perspective.

 

[SizeMatters]

The father does.

Nah, no one has the right to advocate for taking away a woman's right.
It's one of the most traumatic experiences a woman will have to carry for the rest of their life.
It should be their choice not some guy who is 'advocating' for an abortion ffs. He had that chance a few weeks prior.*

*But it is a complicated matter. Many variables and possible unfortunate events that could lead to these discussions.

 

[SizeMatters]

A few "well I'm not racist but..." type posts in here.

I feel sick.

 

[lioninthesand]

Whatever the outcome of this inquiry the AFL is now undertaking, Fagan, Clarkson and several others are going to be tried and convicted by media and will be labelled racists for the remainder of their lives. This isn't isolated to just them either. Their families will have to live with this shadow hanging over them as well.....found guilty or not guilty....it wont matter.

I support this investigation by Hawthorn, but I dont support the way it has been reported or the results presented until everyone has been investigated and an overall summary has been done along with a plan moving forward.

One thing is for sure 100%, we need to find a new coach.

If the investigation finds there was no evidence of racism, the alleged victims don’t want to face the KC or their accounts can’t be verified - then there is a good chance Fagan will be cleared and he will continue his career.

I think what you are really saying/preparing for is ‘this isn’t just a flippant claim, this looks like this will be hard to get out of with a clean sheet, we need to look for a new coach’.

The notion that white males are treated harshly by the media or anyone else, and therefore can’t continue their careers and or are tainted for the rest of their lives after claims of racism, isn’t true.

If they are guilty they move on in life, if they are innocent they move on, it’s the victims like Rioli and Goodes who suffer more reputational damage and are tarnished.

Eddie is fine, Tex is fine, all those involved in the Adelaide camp got off and moved on - infact - it is rare these scandals bring people down, even when they are proven guilty.

The notion the world is stacked against them is just not supported in previous scandals.

If they are guilty of the claims or some/ most of the claims, they will be tainted and won’t work in footy again, but will get high paying jobs elsewhere.

If Clarko and Fagan are innocent or can be found largely innocent of these claims (they have everything stacked in their favour to be found innocent), then they will move on and Australia will quickly turn on those making the allegations. Fages has everything stacked in his favour to survive this, provided it’s their word against the alleged victims and he can prove reasonable doubt or that he was largely innocent.

He is not doomed either way, he is doomed as an AFL coach if he was involved in some of the alleged horrors that occurred.

 

[dlanod]

It reeks of the Christian Porter case which the ABC had to pay compensation for which was one sided and against the wishes of the persons family. I'm mot shooting the messenger, I' just asking why the obscure ABC, why that timing, and who befits.

Might as well provide the facts on this one given it sounds like you've been misled:

• the ABC didn't pay compensation to Porter or anyone.
• the ABC didn't have to retract the article.

There was an agreed upon settlement for the ABC to add a standard disclaimer (that pretty much all articles have on all media sites, and the ABC should have had in the first place) and the ABC paid a few thousand to cover the mediation costs - not even Porter's legal costs. It was basically the epitome of "let's just drop this".

 

[CarterS]

A few "well I'm not racist but..." type posts in here.

I feel sick.

Care to point them out? I haven't read every thing here but I can't say I've seen any thing racist.

 

[CarterS]

I'd like the AFL investigation expanded to include the whole club and not just the indigenous players.