Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[rwan566]

So speculation is the player involved is Garlett, a player who was found by a court to be addicted by meth his entire career and only one club would take a punt on.

Hawthorn put him with hodge to try to straighten him out. I trust fages

 

[lioninthesand]

I think I may have deleted the part I wanted to quote but being in HR and having had lots of uncomfortable meetings over the years and some very memorable ones - i can't believe, unless you have fastidious notes or diaries that you can seriously recall who is present at some of those meetings, particularly many many years ago. The only person I think would be remembered is the senior coach such as Clarkson so I think he may be in trouble but the only way I see Fagan coming out of it is if Clarkson himself says Fagan either wasnt there or had no knowledge of it. If Fagan wasnt there then clearly there will be some doubt as to how he wouldnt have known about some of this stuff, unless it was fabricated or severly embellished.

100% - I think there’s a chance Fagan wasn’t in the room. He was said to be in different locations when these alleged incidents occurred, 2 meeting rooms and the house, from memory - so we just need to hope he can reasonably prove that - and or - get the victims to jog their memory and agree they infact incorrectly placed him in various situations, when drawing on their collective recollections. I think this, him proving he was not present, is his main hope.

Again though, not great for Clarko, his right hand man not going for ‘it didn’t happen’ instead going for ‘I wasn’t there’..

 

[lioninthesand]

So speculation is the player involved is Garlett, a player who was found by a court to be addicted by meth his entire career and only one club would take a punt on.

Hawthorn put him with hodge to try to straighten him out. I trust fages

There’s 3 players involved. Also, being addicted to a drug of dependence does not justify the alleged actions, it makes it worse.

This would have no bearing on the allegations standing or report findings imo.

 

[BangyBangy]

There’s 3 players involved. Also, being addicted to a drug of dependence does not justify the alleged actions, it makes it worse.

This would have no bearing on the allegations standing or report findings imo.

Might not make him the most reliable witness though, if all the SVU shows I have watched are correct.

 

[briztoon]

Clearly, there’s a lot of water to go under the bridge with this.

However, under Fagan’s coaching we’ve brought in a number of First Nations players from other clubs, whilst our academy product Coleman is thriving. Mitch seemed to have good rapport with Fagan until recently (though that doesn’t seem to be related). His wife is Aboriginal, and has been engaged by the Club to do our Doug Nicholls round jumper in previous years IIRC.

Indigenous players at AFL clubs are well connected with and to each other. Players talk and share experiences - think back to Matt Rendell and how that news came out. For many seasons we had very limited Indigenous representation on our list which, without looking in detail, I would say has markedly improved in recent years. This surely says something about the environment we have created. Could we improve it? I’m sure the answer is yes - but that would be true for any of the 18 clubs in the AFL/W.

The fact there has been nothing said previously about Fagan suggests to me that he may be collateral damage in all of this.

That said, the allegations are heinous and being a senior figure at the club during that time doesn’t reflect well on him - fairly or unfairly - by association.

Of course if his version is that he objected most strenuously to the processes but was over-ruled and his only options were to resign over it or to stay and do his best to mitigate the outfall etc then he would be simultaneously semi-clearing himself and throwing Clarkson et al under the bus. If it comes out through a third party that that is what happened then he is not the disloyal one.

Mind you even if the attitude was that kids were a distraction and family that weren't fully on board were a distraction and that young kids led to sleepless nights led to bad game day performances and that you have a small window to make the most of your professional career then simply letting the players know that while they were supportive of their choices but priority would be given to performance and failure to kick on or lack of professionalism would have inevitable consequences would at least leave the choices in their hands (since the AFL Draftee contract somehow fails to mentioned a contraceptive requirement for the first contract or the stipulated reproduction approval requirement by the relevant Club)

Thinking back - wasn't Rendell trying to avoid these kind of 'complications' by avoiding drafting folk from a less statistically reliable cohort?

Rendell actually didn’t say it.

Adam Simpson said it, and Rendell was asked to explain what Simpson meant, on Trade Radio.

 

[Jivlain]

So speculation is the player involved is -------------------------------------------------------------------

Hawthorn put him with hodge to try to straighten him out. I trust fages

Let's avoid engaging in speculation about who the players involved are. They were not named in the media, for good reason, and let's keep it that way.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Regardless no one has the right to advocate abortion.

The father does.

 

[CarterS]

how do you prove something didn’t happen or you weren’t present for a meeting a dozen years ago?

I wish I had as much faith in the system as the people who say he has nothing to worry about if he is innocent, the truth will come out.

 

[Required]

Let's avoid engaging in speculation about who the players involved are. They were not named in the media, for good reason, and let's keep it that way.

I get that. But what i dont get is why an accusation can be made and the names of the alleged offenders are put up in bright lights to a horrified public, basically convicted before their side comes out, regardless of the mud that will stick to them if found guilty or innocent.

In fact they cant ever be found innocent in a 'he said, she said' situation where its ones word against another. Clarkson and fages are stained for life, regardless of what actually transpired.

What i think is wrong, is their accusers get to remain anonymous, avoiding public scrutiny! Both, accuser and accused should be named, or neither.

The accusers are grown men. They have made serious accusations that will affect the careers, lives and reputations of highly regarded people who have done good things for many people over many years. They may or may not have done something wrong here, but at the least, their accusers should stand up in public and face the same scrutiny as Clarkson and Fagan! Not be cloaked in anonymity while their accusations ruin the reputation of two men, who up to now have been highly regarded and respected by all.
.

 

[nup]

So it's been about 24 hours, everyone comfortable with this being enough time to know how to respond to allegations of this nature, or reckon we hit send and end some careers

 

[Mighty Lions]

Whatever the outcome of this inquiry the AFL is now undertaking, Fagan, Clarkson and several others are going to be tried and convicted by media and will be labelled racists for the remainder of their lives. This isn't isolated to just them either. Their families will have to live with this shadow hanging over them as well.....found guilty or not guilty....it wont matter.

I support this investigation by Hawthorn, but I dont support the way it has been reported or the results presented until everyone has been investigated and an overall summary has been done along with a plan moving forward.

One thing is for sure 100%, we need to find a new coach.

 

[Brett C]

Whatever the outcome of this inquiry the AFL is now undertaking, Fagan, Clarkson and several others are going to be tried and convicted by media and will be labelled racists for the remainder of their lives. This isn't isolated to just them either. Their families will have to live with this shadow hanging over them as well.....found guilty or not guilty....it wont matter.

I support this investigation by Hawthorn, but I dont support the way it has been reported or the results presented until everyone has been investigated and an overall summary has been done along with a plan moving forward.

One thing is for sure 100%, we need to find a new coach.

Completely agree with most of this, one thing we need to do is stop calling whatever the Hawthorne report is an investigation.

Not a lot of investigations would avoid speaking to all parties involved, not substantiating information and just blinding accept as fact claims however implausible they are.

 

[Clarkythelion]

So here we are the day after, I've read through everything I can find - here is my thoughts.

(1) The perception of what happened by the families of the players and players themselves is real for them, I feel sorry for them and hope they get closure of this in some way.

(2) If Brisbane did the same interview of ex-players what would Albert Proud

Albert Proud

Age

36

Ht

180cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.5

3star

K

5.5

2star

HB

6.0

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

2.9

4star

CL

0.7

3star

No current season stats available

D

7.8

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.0

5star

and Ryan Hooper have to say as their perception? Every club will have stories that have 2 sides for both First Nations players and the rest of the kids drafted to clubs. Lets no judge clubs or people without all the evidence.

(3) The ABC is not a credible media outlet, they have form doing these one sided stories and have recently had to pay compensation for doing it. The are a very niche media outlet with falling ratings, their track record is not good. It is not balanced journalism to report one side of events with the outcome to destroy careers without the opportunity to defend.

(4) Hawthorne probably saw what happened at Collingwood and wondered if they have an issue. The report was commissioned, people now external to the club were interviewed and in the perception of some of those people, yes, Hawthorn had an issue. You would think due course would be for Hawthorn to continue their process of investigation and look internally to find both sides of the story. But that first step got leaked to the journalist - why, how, by whom and who would benefit from that and why that particular timing.

(5) How can those accused ever clear their names? If this could get to a court room and everyone give evidence under oath then may yes the public would see the truth but as this is, reputations will be tainted forever. I'm also sorry for those involved that may never now have an opportunity to defend themselves in a way the public can accept it.

(6) I can see with a slight twist of the situation how the staff at Hawthorne would be helping any young player that came to the club and said they needed some help. Were there other young players interviewed or just First Nations players? We have seen other clubs try so hard, some with success, some without, to keep young players on track. GWS, Eagles and the Swans for example are some that have struggled recently, a review of those cases from each side could also perceive to be against public opinion.

(7) As yet, no senior player from that era at Hawthorne has supported that there was an issue, not even they best First Nations player whom has in fact said he saw nothing but feels he should have know as he considered it his role to help young players. But maybe Rioli has hinted at something. Will we, as the public, get to see the other side of the story since this is being played out in the Public Perception court so we can judge for ourselves? At a club that had so much success in the period mentioned, that was full of great leaders now spread across the league, and that all shared a great bond, how was this kept quite there would have been a hundred or so players sharing the 'heat of battle' relationships at the time and no one said anything.

Finally - As a supporter of footy and with a partner whom is a lawyer working in the field of First Nations People I ask myself where will this end? How can it end and will it ever really end? What process can now happen that gives us all the details we need to set our conscious free. For me, only people in a situation where they are compelled to tell the truth, and what they say can be cross examined, and the consequences of what they say is evident will clear this situation up. The players and coaches that were at Hawthorn at the time are now disbursed across almost all of the other clubs in some way and many of them are in the highest of positions with many young men under their control as employers/coaches. Please AFL find a way to bring this out, have a public inquiry with some witness protection or something, maybe some Government intervention to allow a broader review given this is not really historical.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

So it's been about 24 hours, everyone comfortable with this being enough time to know how to respond to allegations of this nature, or reckon we hit send and end some careers

Yeah, pretty easy to confirm or deny if you were present in those conversations.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

(3) The ABC is not a credible media outlet, they have form doing these one sided stories and have recently had to pay compensation for doing it. The are a very niche media outlet with falling ratings, their track record is not good. It is not balanced journalism to report one side of events with the outcome to destroy careers without the opportunity to defend.

This is straight up just shooting the messenger because you don't like what they have to say. Russell Jackson has a very good reputation and broke the stories on Rod Owen and Robert Muir. You know full well that he contacted Fagan and Clarkson for comment and they didn't respond, and yet you still comment that he didn't give them an opportunity to defend themselves. How does that work?

 

[fugitive]

Fox Footy is all over it like a pack of vultures, for them it’s probably not even about the core of the issue that is racism, just whatever gets views and clicks, can’t stop that unfortunately.

Whatever the outcome of this inquiry the AFL is now undertaking, Fagan, Clarkson and several others are going to be tried and convicted by media

 

[Fitzroy bears]

Well this makes Fagan now either completely useless with electronic appliances or extremely guilty asf for not replying back to his email/voice message, regarding the allegations around him & Clarkson

Either way, this isn’t gonna be a pretty off-seasons for the AFL and the relevant clubs involved, that’s for sure

Not necessarily. He would have been advised legally not to comment in a public forum.

In this particular situation his comments should be on a legal record where they can't be miss quoted.

These are serious allegations and TBH should have been handled differently by the media. I hope they have got it right, cause if not Chris Fagan and Clarkston will have a hell of a deformation case after being named without due process

 

[Fitzroy bears]

HAving heard the likes of Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell and Burgoyne speak today, would I be naive in saying that I find it odd that these ex-Hawks are completely distancing themselves from all of this and saying they had no knowldege of this which I admit I find it hard to believe that such massive allegations didnt find its way to one, some or if not all of these players and b/c they did nothing they are all claiming ignorance - perhaps that is a long bow to draw - but I feel like I can't buy that players dont hear about this

Work places are like toilets sh#$ flows through it. There is no way that a single player, especially a first nations player and leader like Burgoyne, would not have been spoken to at some point by the players involved......this is a critical component in my view of this review

 

[Mighty Lions]

Yeah, pretty easy to confirm or deny if you were present in those conversations.

No, not if its going to be a legal challenge.

 

[pod17]

Rendell actually didn’t say it.

Adam Simpson said it, and Rendell was asked to explain what Simpson meant, on Trade Radio.

Apologies, I thought I recalled that he had spoken with Jason Misfud who then spoke with Davey (the 2012 event). However, original point still stands.

 

[Mighty Lions]

This is straight up just shooting the messenger because you don't like what they have to say. Russell Jackson has a very good reputation and broke the stories on Rod Owen and Robert Muir. You know full well that he contacted Fagan and Clarkson for comment and they didn't respond, and yet you still comment that he didn't give them an opportunity to defend themselves. How does that work?

I played footy with Rocket. His problems were much deeper than what was reported. I dont know Russell Jackson but I dont believe he is any different to any other journo who want to make theirselves relevant.
I believe the accused should have been included in the Hawthorn investigation once they were implicated well before this came out into the public arena.

 

[Brett C]

Yeah, pretty easy to confirm or deny if you were present in those conversations.

Is it though? In the last 20 years for work I will have been in conservatively 1000 team meetings, had 5000 client meetings and probably 50,000 phone calls.

Would I be expected to remember each and every interaction?

We can take a counter view which is that these statements contain a portion of truth and a portion of bullshit.

We don’t need to believe what the “victims” in this case claim until there has been an actual impartial investigation neither of which Hawthorne or ABC have done here.

 

[Brett C]

This is straight up just shooting the messenger because you don't like what they have to say. Russell Jackson has a very good reputation and broke the stories on Rod Owen and Robert Muir. You know full well that he contacted Fagan and Clarkson for comment and they didn't respond, and yet you still comment that he didn't give them an opportunity to defend themselves. How does that work?

Yep 24 hours is reasonable for something that has serious legal implications.

A reasonable person wouldn’t consider that an opportunity to properly defend themselves

 

[Fitzroy bears]

Saucery- "Regardless no one has the right to advocate abortion."

The father does.

Jeepers let's not open that can of worms on a footy forum. Please!

 

[Mighty Lions]

Saucery- "Regardless no one has the right to advocate abortion."


Jeepers let's not open that can of worms on a footy forum. Please!

It's an opinion mate. I didn't open that but I will comment if I have an opinion on a post.