Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[martinson]

HK, listen to Robbo's question at about 21:00 and then Gil's meandering response at about 22.20.

' AT LEAST' a couple of months to conduct the review . You've got the Christmas break which is plus 6 weeks in the AFL . Then the report to be drawn up , distributed to all relevant parties , responses drawn up etc. etc. I stand to be corrected but the AFL is laying the groundwork for a 6 month process here.

I think we need to be getting a contingency plan set for our club because this is not going to be over before preseason and probably the season in general is in full swing.

 

[janty]

The allegations against Fagan can be true whilst he also has a fantastic relationship with First Nation players at the Brisbane Lions.

They don’t have to be exclusive from one another.

 

[Sausages]

The allegations against Fagan can be true whilst he also has a fantastic relationship with First Nation players at the Brisbane Lions.

They don’t have to be exclusive from one another.

The allegations against Fagan can be true if and only if he can be conclusively located at the site of said meetings - but the absence of that fact alone will not exonerate him.

 

[martinson]

The allegations against Fagan can be true whilst he also has a fantastic relationship with First Nation players at the Brisbane Lions.

They don’t have to be exclusive from one another.

It's possible.

But would take Dissociative identity disorder to do it.

Leopards don't change their spots. Generally.

 

[sageslayer]

Hearing Gill on 360 was interesting and basically aligned with my thought process. We should absolutely treat the allegations seriously without diminishing the experience these indigenous players had but we need to hear all sides of the story before making conclusions.

 

[Squizz89]

Full transcript from the interview with Gil tonight on 360.

‘Clearly it’s difficult’: Months-long Hawks racism probe looms as AFL boss wants coaches heard

‘Clearly it’s difficult’: Months-long Hawks racism probe looms as AFL boss wants coaches heard

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[Sausages]

People are musing upon Fagan's livelihood on the strength of claimants who may not have even been on an AFL list.

Let that sink in.

I could be wrong and I genuinely don't mind either way.

But that is as concise a sit-rep as you'll get,

 

[martinson]

Full transcript from the interview with Gil tonight on 360.

‘Clearly it’s difficult’: Months-long Hawks racism probe looms as AFL boss wants coaches heard

‘Clearly it’s difficult’: Months-long Hawks racism probe looms as AFL boss wants coaches heard

www.foxsports.com.au

I read what Gil said and my head couldn't take any more. Gobbledegook.

They're supporting everybody , there's a process, everything's being run to ground (what on earth does that mean ) .

Gil is actually Humphrey Appleby reincarnated.

 

[Sausages]

I read what Gil said and my head couldn't take any more. Gobbledegook.

They're supporting everybody , there's a process, everything's being run to ground (what on earth does that mean ) .

Gil is actually Humphrey Appleby reincarnated.

(incoming Sausages <3 )

Yes, Martinson

 

[Stars align]

No. The AFL process will serve the interests of all parties best. For the moment at least.

Nobody racing into court yet but people are lawyering up
Just reported in The Age four of the families have engaged a hot shot lawyer to represent them at the AFL investigation

 

[Viceregal]

It is a balance needed with slippery slopes and yawning chasms all around...

- if anyone can say anything anonymously and their word taken as gospel then no one is safe and tall poppy meets the Inquisition

- if anyone who says anything is immediately exposed then the powers that be and the systems in place can swing into action to punish the perpetrators (in this case meaning the ones upsetting the apple cart) - when you know that the last whistleblower became unemployable/went to jail/was financially ruined/was reputationaly crucified/their lawyers were disbarred etc then there is a chilling effect on future revelations.

- naming the accused but not the accusers tends to put the onus on the accused to prove their innocence not on the accusers to prove their guilt.

- naming only some of the accused (in this case Clarkson and Fagan) but not others (in a room with those two and other coaches who were not specified but whose culpability and/or support of the alleged process might just be as relevant) might be useful for headlines and scapegoating but a systematic process (since the alleged indiscretions involved similar processes) would have to have buy in from the coaching staff, welfare, the leadership group etc.

- when people are wanting to know who it was it is most likely so they can look at them and find a reason to discount their stories (how much easier to discount a DeGoey claim over a Pendlebury one for example)

- we still don't know if this alleged behaviour was a part of general expectations or just indigenous (or if it disproportionately affected indigenous due to an earlier expectation on starting a family etc)

- if we have to treat indigenous players differently from other players due to the risk of misunderstandings turning into career ending stories then opportunites for one on one time and bonding and mentoring etc will be limited (in the same way many businessmen avoid time alone even completely innocently and professionally with women having watched their fellow fall victim to false accusations) and there may be a reluctance to take on a player with that baggage compared to another player of equal skill but without it.

- if trying to help others outside of the specific job description gets turned into opportunites to be destroyed then there is a tendency for those considering the good Samaritan route to choose the Levite path (just walk by) instead.

 

[Sausages]

“And so I feel we picked this up roughly a week ago, and the report arrives and today we still are not sure who the people making the complaints are. It’s difficult then to start the process until we do that, but we respect greatly the courage to do it, hope they’re getting the support they need."

Either the AFL had this report a week ago, or they had knowledge of it's existence "today" which at best could be our current yesterday.

In that time, neither the journalist nor the claimants have either come forward or identified themselves, despite this being front page news country-wide.

In the intervening at least 24 hours since the document's content were first revealed to the AFL,and possibly as long as one week ago, they have not been able to identify who the claimants are.

Does that strike NONE of you as strange?

 

[BRAB]

“And so I feel we picked this up roughly a week ago, and the report arrives and today we still are not sure who the people making the complaints are. It’s difficult then to start the process until we do that, but we respect greatly the courage to do it, hope they’re getting the support they need."

Either the AFL had this report a week ago, or they had knowledge of it's existence "today" which at best could be our current yesterday.

In that time, neither the journalist nor the claimants have either come forward or identified themselves, despite this being front page news country-wide.

In the intervening at least 24 hours since the document's content were first revealed to the AFL,and possibly as long as one week ago, they have not been able to identify who the claimants are.

Does that strike NONE of you as strange?

Not particularly no, given that the reasons for those interviewed to stay anonymous was clearly stated in the ABC report.

On account of their complex mental health challenges, and the need to protect their children, their names have been changed.

I don’t think the “claimants” are going to “come forward and identify themselves”. I suspect that they will have to be identified in the AFL investigation and this information won’t reach the public.

 

[SRH17]

Former Hawks assistant coach backs some allegations, players hire top lawyer

The four families at the centre of Hawthorn’s racism scandal have engaged top troubleshooting lawyer Leon Zwier to represent them in the AFL’s independent investigation into the alleged mistreatment of Indigenous players and their partners.

www.theage.com.au

Getting murkier by the minute.

 

[Viceregal]

Does that strike NONE of you as strange?

It doesn't strike me as particularly ... helpful!

 

[Thedeftouch]

The extent to which the allegations are true is very difficult to know at this stage.

However, I would be very surprised if Fagan was involved in the type of behaviour which is alleged. Fagan has always struck me as a very kind and decent person. Not really the cutthroat type or someone who would be pressuring or intimidating players. I’ve also noticed that the players speak of him in a positive manner.

I remember Fagan was promoting a Nelson Mandela quote to the team a while ago, and another time he ran up to Cal Ah Chee after a game to hug him after he played despite a death in the family. It has always seemed like there is genuine warmth and respect between Fagan and the entire playing group.

None of that is proof against the specific charges. But when Fagan categorically denies the allegations, I think that denial has credibility (of course subject to further information coming to light).

 

[martinson]

I don't think it matters much who believes what.

They'll all be lawyered up by now.

Don't see much of a resolution coming out of any of this sadly .

Even politicians are having their two bobs worth making judgemental comments already. Points scoring all around inevitably follows.

Best to give it a few months and see what emerges.

Seeing we're all here because we support the Lions I guess the big question is what's the best way forward for our club ,our players and the best outcomes in season 2023.

 

[3KZ is Football]

The day we don't recognise anyone of specific color, creed or race is the day we finally get to say we are all equal.

Will be a boring day though.

I would modify your sentence to read “The day when there is no discrimination against anyone based on their color, creed or race is the day we get to say we are all equal.”

I love my Greek heritage and I also love the things about me that reflect father’s Anglo-Celtic convict background and my connection to Australian culture. Rather than wishing cultural diversity away, we should celebrate it and see it as a possibility to learn about others and the human experience in all contexts.

My mother migrated to Australia with her Greek family from Egypt in 1949. Her father was a chef of some renown and he was completely fluent and literate in five languages, Greek, Arabic, French, English and Italian. When he was dying, he thought he would teach himself Spanish before he went. He passed on to me the idea that the world is full of interesting cultures and people and if we took the time to learn about them, their ways and in his case, their language, then we would be richer for having made the effort. Our First Nations people are and should be entitled to stand among the peoples of the world and be treated with respect and to draw pride from their culture. Given the history of genocide and dispossession that our First Nations people have had to endure and the generational consequences that are yet to be remedied, those in power and the rest of us in our daily lives need to listen and help create that remedy. If we do, we will be better and we will be enriched by the varied cultures that make up our First Nations communities.

View The Statement - Uluru Statement from the Heart

 

[Section 5]

Former Hawks assistant coach backs some allegations, players hire top lawyer

The four families at the centre of Hawthorn’s racism scandal have engaged top troubleshooting lawyer Leon Zwier to represent them in the AFL’s independent investigation into the alleged mistreatment of Indigenous players and their partners.

www.theage.com.au

Getting murkier by the minute.

Yes a little, but i think one thing came to light
An assistant coach apparently did support some aspects of the families' accounts
I deduct that the assistant coach in question was indigenous going on the few paragraphs below copied from The Age article
............................

A former Hawthorn assistant coach gave evidence to the club’s cultural review, which sources said supported parts of the Indigenous players’ testimony about their alleged mistreatment.

Sources familiar with the review, who were not authorised to comment publicly, confirmed to The Age the involvement of the former assistant coach, who worked under Alastair Clarkson at the Hawks, as the four Indigenous families at the centre of the racism scandal engaged renowned troubleshooting lawyer Leon Zwier to represent them. The sources said the former assistant coach supported aspects of the families’ accounts.

...................

As the fallout from the crisis continued, with a third former Hawthorn coach standing aside from his current job for the investigation, the author of the club-commissioned report that triggered it defended the decision not to afford four-time premiership coach Clarkson, director of football Chris Fagan or development coach Jason Burt the opportunity to answer the allegations at the time.

“It was very strict. We had a very narrow laneway to stay in and we had no access to non-Indigenous past players, coaches or staff,” the report’s author, former Richmond player Phil Egan, told Channel Seven on Thursday night.

 

[RoyBoy17]

I’ve got very reliable info that provides a lot more context and sheds light on it which will no doubt come to the fore in the investigation.

The fact that Fagan and Clarkson have been named without a right of reply before having their names slandered is hideous and gutter journalism at its finest.

Journalist and claimants better be lawyered up.

 

[martinson]

I’ve got very reliable info that provides a lot more context and sheds light on it which will no doubt come to the fore in the investigation.

The fact that Fagan and Clarkson have been named without a right of reply before having their names slandered is hideous and gutter journalism at its finest.

Journalist and claimants better be lawyered up.

There's some angry people out there I'm hearing.

Which doesn't bode well for the inquiry sorting anything within a reasonable timeframe.

 

[Quested]

So they're unnamed but some how The Age as well as the ABC know who they are and what they're up to?

Former Hawks assistant coach backs some allegations, players hire top lawyer

The four families at the centre of Hawthorn’s racism scandal have engaged top troubleshooting lawyer Leon Zwier to represent them in the AFL’s independent investigation into the alleged mistreatment of Indigenous players and their partners.

www.theage.com.au

Getting murkier by the minute.

 

[TaylorMade]

I do laugh that people hold the ABC as this shining beacon of journalism.

Time and again they been shown to report/publish false information.

They’ve had 100’s of upheld complaints against them in the past.

Why you think people who don’t trust the ABC must then be right wing Murdoch supporters.

This isn’t the US where we most identify as either Republican or Democrats like it’s their first name.

I’ve always believed that 80% of Australia are balanced politically/personally.

You've attacked the ABC plenty in this thread. Where do you go for quality journalism?

 

[Thomasno]

There’s 3 players involved. Also, being addicted to a drug of dependence does not justify the alleged actions, it makes it worse.

This would have no bearing on the allegations standing or report findings imo.

Late reply and not wanting to necessarily speculate on unfounded rumours, but if someone was a meth addict then you can kind of call their testimony into question. Who’s to say there wasn’t some element of drug induced paranoid delusions or psychosis involved?

Extremely common in meth users.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

“And so I feel we picked this up roughly a week ago, and the report arrives and today we still are not sure who the people making the complaints are. It’s difficult then to start the process until we do that, but we respect greatly the courage to do it, hope they’re getting the support they need."

Either the AFL had this report a week ago, or they had knowledge of it's existence "today" which at best could be our current yesterday.

In that time, neither the journalist nor the claimants have either come forward or identified themselves, despite this being front page news country-wide.

In the intervening at least 24 hours since the document's content were first revealed to the AFL,and possibly as long as one week ago, they have not been able to identify who the claimants are.

Does that strike NONE of you as strange?

Apologies, but it’s not strange because in order to have the players speak honestly they were told that they their names would not be used.

They’ve been “de-identified” in the report as a consequence.