Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Jivlain]

So they're unnamed but some how The Age as well as the ABC know who they are and what they're up to?

Prior to the ABC article, there were two separate investigations happening.

A closely-defined investigation into the experiences of Indigenous players at Hawthorn AND
An investigative journalist doing a long-form investigation

These are separate, and we do not, at this stage, know what (if any) overlap in incidents there were between the two.

Zwier has been hired by some of the families involved in the Hawthorn investigation.

Again, what overlap there is between the Jackson article and the Hawthorn investigation is currently unknown, but we do know that it's not 100% as there were details that came up in the Jackson article which had been previously unknown to the Hawthorn investigation.

 

[western royboy]

I read what Gil said and my head couldn't take any more. Gobbledegook.

They're supporting everybody , there's a process, everything's being run to ground (what on earth does that mean ) .

Gil is actually Humphrey Appleby reincarnated.

Many moons ago, in a past life, when I was just a wee lad, I worked on a project headed by Gil. He is the consummate Management Consultant.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Will be a boring day though.

I would modify your sentence to read “The day when there is no discrimination against anyone based on their color, creed or race is the day we get to say we are all equal.”

I love my Greek heritage and I also love the things about me that reflect father’s Anglo-Celtic convict background and my connection to Australian culture. Rather than wishing cultural diversity away, we should celebrate it and see it as a possibility to learn about others and the human experience in all contexts.

My mother migrated to Australia with her Greek family from Egypt in 1949. Her father was a chef of some renown and he was completely fluent and literate in five languages, Greek, Arabic, French, English and Italian. When he was dying, he thought he would teach himself Spanish before he went. He passed on to me the idea that the world is full of interesting cultures and people and if we took the time to learn about them, their ways and in his case, their language, then we would be richer for having made the effort. Our First Nations people are and should be entitled to stand among the peoples of the world and be treated with respect and to draw pride from their culture. Given the history of genocide and dispossession that our First Nations people have had to endure and the generational consequences that are yet to be remedied, those in power and the rest of us in our daily lives need to listen and help create that remedy. If we do, we will be better and we will be enriched by the varied cultures that make up our First Nations communities.

View The Statement - Uluru Statement from the Heart

Missed the point I was making but whatever. I'll take boring over what we are dealing with now any day of the week.

Almost all of us have some background/story about migrating to Australia similar to yours and that's great.

 

[Mighty Lions]

You've attacked the ABC plenty in this thread. Where do you go for quality journalism?

There isn't anywhere in this country where you can witness quality journalism. Until they are held accountable for what spews out of their mouths on TV, Radio, Newspapers or even Social Media, it will always stay as scum talk.

 

[Saucery]

There isn't anywhere in this country where you can witness quality journalism. Until they are held accountable for what spews out of their moths on TV, Radio, Newspapers or even Social Media, it will always stay as scum talk.

This sounds like fake news to me

 

[Saucery]

It's possible.

But would take Dissociative identity disorder to do it.

Leopards don't change their spots. Generally.

Form the vibe I'm getting this was Clarkson playing little dictators and Fagan fail to step in and moderate him. Lay down with dogs, wake up with fleas as they say. Same thing seems to be the with case with Don Pike and the camp. He knew something was wrong about what was going on but failed to intervene.

 

[Saucery]

So they're unnamed but some how The Age as well as the ABC know who they are and what they're up to?

Once the AFL and lawyers get involved there will be strategic leaks not stop

 

[3KZ is Football]

Missed the point I was making but whatever. I'll take boring over what we are dealing with now any day of the week.

Almost all of us have some background/story about migrating to Australia similar to yours and that's great.

I get it. You are saying that the day where we find a persons colour, race and creed unremarkable, then that will be a good day. It’s like children, they recognise racial differences, but do not see these as the basis for making moral or ideological judgements until they are taught to do so.

You make a good point.

 

[janty]

Read that the AFL got the report a week before the news dropped.

Interesting.

 

[dlanod]

Again, what overlap there is between the Jackson article and the Hawthorn investigation is currently unknown, but we do know that it's not 100% as there were details that came up in the Jackson article which had been previously unknown to the Hawthorn investigation.

Plus there's now mention of at least four families hiring a lawyer per the Hawthorn review, whereas there's only three accounts in the ABC report.

 

[CarterS]

The more I read, the more I think it is going to be months before this is sorted one way or another, civil lawsuits will be incoming, all sorts of things, this will drag out and be lucky to be sorted by the time next season starts.

 

[lioninthesand]

I’ll preface this by saying - I do not assume Fagan is guilty, I find it hard to reconcile he would do these things and I have confidence the investigation can seperate him from the allegations enough - for him to still be our coach in 2023.

Hearing (thus far unconfirmed) reports that there is an assistant coach who has corroborated some of the claims, does not bode well for the accused, whether it involves fages directly, who knows?

If there are other staff, especially non indigenous and people from outside of their camp, who are willing to say ‘I saw that’, ‘I drove the car’, ‘I heard them do this or that’ it is going to make it extremely difficult for the accused.

Remember only 1 of the more horrible claims or a portion of the overall story, needs to be substantiated for them to be in massive trouble, career wise.

Our word againsts theirs won’t go as well if it’s our word againts theirs and other non indigenous staff.

On the other hand, third party witnesses my be able to assist in removing Fagan from certain situations too.

All I know and I have feared from the start, you’d imagine the alleged victims and their team (including this ABC reporter) would be pretty comfortable with where they sit evidence and potentially witness wise, to run head first into this on such a scale.

Time will tell.

 

[Required]

All I know and I have feared from the start, you’d imagine the alleged victims and their team (including this ABC reporter) would be pretty comfortable with where they sit evidence and potentially witness wise, to run head first into this on such a scale.

Time will tell.

Yeah, not like mainstream media to tear into someone and hurt a lot of people without sufficient evidence....

 

[SRH17]

I’ll preface this by saying - I do not assume Fagan is guilty, I find it hard to reconcile he would do these things and I have confidence the investigation can seperate him from the allegations enough - for him to still be our coach in 2023.

Hearing (thus far unconfirmed) reports that there is an assistant coach who has corroborated some of the claims, does not bode well for the accused, whether it involves fages directly, who knows?

If there are other staff, especially non indigenous and people from outside of their camp, who are willing to say ‘I saw that’, ‘I drove the car’, ‘I heard them do this or that’ it is going to make it extremely difficult for the accused.

Remember only 1 of the more horrible claims or a portion of the overall story, needs to be substantiated for them to be in massive trouble, career wise.

Our word againsts theirs won’t go as well if it’s our word againts theirs and other non indigenous staff.

On the other hand, third party witnesses my be able to assist in removing Fagan from certain situations too.

All I know and I have feared from the start, you’d imagine the alleged victims and their team (including this ABC reporter) would be pretty comfortable with where they sit evidence and potentially witness wise, to run head first into this on such a scale.

Time will tell.

Isn't anyone that offers up the bolded just as culpable as those that have already been named?

 

[Maboo]

... as opposed to...?

Not jumping to conclusions, simples.
Chris Fagan has not been found guilty of any crime, if and when he has, he deserves what he gets.
Nobody is denying this happened and it is truly abhorrent, but I find it hard to believe that Fagan is or was that person so
i am backing our coach until it is proven.
It amazes me how anybody can make an allegation against anyone at our club and a lot on here unfairly assume they
are guilty. Wether Fagan is guilty or innocent, his life, career and reputation is now trashed.

Pile on if you like, I don’t give a flying **** and my mind won’t be changed.

 

[lioninthesand]

Isn't anyone that offers up the bolded just as culpable as those that have already been named?

100% depending on the level of their involvement.

 

[Nathan Barley]

e

Not jumping to conclusions, simples.
Chris Fagan has not been found guilty of any crime, if and when he has, he deserves what he gets.
Nobody is denying this happened and it is truly abhorrent, but I find it hard to believe that Fagan is or was that person so
i am backing our coach until it is proven.
It amazes me how anybody can make an allegation against anyone at our club and a lot on here unfairly assume they
are guilty. Wether Fagan is guilty or innocent, his life, career and reputation is now trashed.

Pile on if you like, I don’t give a flying * and my mind won’t be changed.

Don't think people are assuming he's guilty but the chances of him coming out completely clean would seem very seem so from the clubs point of view we have to look at what's best for the club

 

[Maboo]

e

Don't think people are assuming he's guilty but the chances of him coming out completely clean would seem very seem so from the clubs point of view we have to look at what's best for the club

Not just this instance with Fagan, but the Zorko thread was hard reading also.
I find it disturbing that a a good man we are led to believe values relationships above all, would be involved in this sort of thing, and is now sitting at home wondering what the **** happened.

 

[On the quiet]

Oh right, yeah but those conducting the AFL review will know their names. The general public doesn't, IMO, need to know. That is all I am saying.

agree, at this stage the general public does not need to know the names of the complainants. At least not until the AFL inquiry has tested the validity of the complaints . The investigation would be flawed if the names were released now, as it would no doubt lead to harassment and likely threats via social media and the wellbeing of the complainants must be a consideration, as well as the alleged perpetrators.

No doubt at some point their details will or should be released. I want to believe that Fages would not do, or be a party to the things alleged.

 

[mpal6]

Form the vibe I'm getting this was Clarkson playing little dictators and Fagan fail to step in and moderate him. Lay down with dogs, wake up with fleas as they say. Same thing seems to be the with case with Don Pike and the camp. He knew something was wrong about what was going on but failed to intervene.

Pretty much this. I fear Fages may not be able to come out squeaky clean in this process. Clarkson may be the main instigator but it doesn't help Fagan was his boss as per the roles at that time. From an outsider perspective, the chances of Clarkson freewheeling without Fagan having any idea about it looks pretty slim.

 

[lioninthesand]

Not jumping to conclusions, simples.
Chris Fagan has not been found guilty of any crime, if and when he has, he deserves what he gets.
Nobody is denying this happened and it is truly abhorrent, but I find it hard to believe that Fagan is or was that person so
i am backing our coach until it is proven.
It amazes me how anybody can make an allegation against anyone at our club and a lot on here unfairly assume they
are guilty. Wether Fagan is guilty or innocent, his life, career and reputation is now trashed.

Pile on if you like, I don’t give a flying * and my mind won’t be changed.

Who is assuming he is guilty on here? I honestly don’t think I’ve seen anyone (very few) assume or imply they are sure he is guilty?

I think most of us also back our coach, I know I do.

I have seen some people asses the picture and discuss concerns about his alleged level of involvement and or his ability to seperate himself from the claims IF the independent investigation supports those claims as true or even partially true.

I think the main arguments stem from some wanting to discuss the ins and outs of the allegations and others just wanting to shut down the whole thing as ‘probably untrue’ (which is actually assuming to know more than anyone without facts) as opposed to anyone arguing Fagan is 100% guilty of anything.

 

[martinson]

e

Don't think people are assuming he's guilty but the chances of him coming out completely clean would seem very seem so from the clubs point of view we have to look at what's best for the club

The issue for me coaching wise is the length of time it's going to take whilst he's stood aside and then to think he's cleared , which is what we're all hoping for, and that he can then step straight back into the key role after several months of not being around the club.

He's also 61. I don't presume any guilt on his part at this point and all the speculation and what ifs about his involvement are pure guesswork until he's had the chance to clarify if he was aware any of this occurred and if it did in the manner described .But we're going to need a coach fairly soon. It's distressing to all that it's come to this but the club needs to make sure season 2023 isn't badly compromised.

 

[Voss the boss]

Well having read this for what seems forever - talk about dog eat dog. ….my gosh!

 

[Maboo]

Who is assuming he is guilty on here? I honestly don’t think I’ve seen anyone (very few) assume or imply they are sure he is guilty?

I think most of us also back our coach, I know I do.

I have seen some people asses the picture and discuss concerns about his alleged level of involvement and or his ability to seperate himself from the claims IF the independent investigation supports those claims as true or even partially true.

I think the main arguments stem from some wanting to discuss the ins and outs of the allegations and others just wanting to shut down the whole thing as ‘probably untrue’ (which is actually assuming to know more than anyone without facts) as opposed to anyone arguing Fagan is 100% guilty of anything.

I can’t start reading from the start again, but that was the vibe I got, I didn’t see many people defending our coach.
society seems to now assume when an allegation is made, you are guilty until proven innocent. Maybe he was involved, maybe he was involved by association but he is innocent until proven guilty.

 

[martinson]

I can’t start reading from the start again, but that was the vibe I got, I didn’t see many people defending our coach.
society seems to now assume when an allegation is made, you are guilty until proven innocent. Maybe he was involved, maybe he was involved by association but he is innocent until proven guilty.

They jumped straight in. It was not good.

But now that he's stood aside and there's a potentially lengthy inquiry underway it's put the club into a situation where it has to make a choice as to how we handle this from a player/season preparation perspective.