Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[martinson]

After days of reflection I believe you are correct and I need to explain myself, an apology of sorts.
Earlier in this thread I posted a rather combative post in defence of Chris Fagan, while I still hold that view, I now
see this issue is too complex and I am struggling to understand it all.
I have autism spectrum disorder, which in no way is an excuse for my behaviour, but I do struggle with grey areas, am fiercely loyal and have a strong sense of social justice. I have been a member of Bigfooty since 2011 and for this reason the amount of posts over the years by me has been minimal, as I tend to take conversations literally, and can get quite childish and upset for no real reason, hence the irrational posts. After Western Royboy opened up about the horrific trauma he experienced historically, it motivated me to do the same. I never meant to diminish the plight of the indigenous family’s and will go back to having a good think before I post anything like that again.

Don't fret mate.

Everyone has issues of some sort.

Some are just better at hiding it.

Take care.

 

[Sausages]

After days of reflection I believe you are correct and I need to explain myself, an apology of sorts.
Earlier in this thread I posted a rather combative post in defence of Chris Fagan, while I still hold that view, I now
see this issue is too complex and I am struggling to understand it all.
I have autism spectrum disorder, which in no way is an excuse for my behaviour, but I do struggle with grey areas, am fiercely loyal and have a strong sense of social justice. I have been a member of Bigfooty since 2011 and for this reason the amount of posts over the years by me has been minimal, as I tend to take conversations literally, and can get quite childish and upset for no real reason, hence the irrational posts. After Western Royboy opened up about the horrific trauma he experienced historically, it motivated me to do the same. I never meant to diminish the plight of the indigenous family’s and will go back to having a good think before I post anything like that again.

Mate, don't be too hard on yourself - in the history of interwebz forums, everyone has made a post that they later consider was inappropriate lol

And like you, I'm totally confused now too ahaha.

It all seems.....staged is the word that springs to mind. The piecemeal approach to information being made available, the lack of transparency over the intersection betwixt the internal report and the ABC report and the unwillingness to engage with the fallout are all extremely confusing and concerning elements for me.

 

[Gadzorks]

But it's happened within the AFL system.
The AFL manage the competition.

It has nothing to do with the state government or any other entity.

If for example McDonalds receives information that a management team at one of their restaurants has been accused of the same incidents.

It is upto McDonald's to investigate, and take appropriate action on anything that can be substantiated.... The people making the claims have to rely on McDonald's to investigate. If they're not happy afterwards... then theu can take them to civil court to win an outcome.

Why wouldn't they trust the AFL? It was Hawthorn after all that circled back 5-10 years into its history to check they're doing all they can to support first nation people.

By making this request these nameless accusers have already rejected any outcome the AFL may arrive at that doesnt support their story.

This smacks of political manovering by an experienced team behind it.

Not an innocent group of victims you have just been heard for the first time.

There are plenty of external organisations that can conduct the review that aren't government. And large human resource company.

But if course, they don't fit a invisible manipulators conspiracy theory.

 

[Maboo]

Mate, don't be too hard on yourself - in the history of interwebz forums, everyone has made a post that they later consider was inappropriate lol

And like you, I'm totally confused now too ahaha.

It all seems.....staged is the word that springs to mind. The piecemeal approach to information being made available, the lack of transparency over the intersection betwixt the internal report and the ABC report and the unwillingness to engage with the fallout are all extremely confusing and concerning elements for me.

Yeah the more I think about it the more it just does my head in

 

[lioninthesand]

After days of reflection I believe you are correct and I need to explain myself, an apology of sorts.
Earlier in this thread I posted a rather combative post in defence of Chris Fagan, while I still hold that view, I now
see this issue is too complex and I am struggling to understand it all.
I have autism spectrum disorder, which in no way is an excuse for my behaviour, but I do struggle with grey areas, am fiercely loyal and have a strong sense of social justice. I have been a member of Bigfooty since 2011 and for this reason the amount of posts over the years by me has been minimal, as I tend to take conversations literally, and can get quite childish and upset for no real reason, hence the irrational posts. After Western Royboy opened up about the horrific trauma he experienced historically, it motivated me to do the same. I never meant to diminish the plight of the indigenous family’s and will go back to having a good think before I post anything like that again.

Hey mate, thanks for sharing it takes guts. Neuro-diversity is something we are all becoming more educated around. Nothing you’ve ever said that I’ve seen requires an apology as far as I can remember.

I want fages to have a fair outcome but I am also cautious about silencing, whitewashing or diminishing minority voices, so I try and play a straight bat.

The minority do get the advantage of anonymity and perhaps media treat them more carefully, but unfortunately, that’s what it takes or nothing would ever be spoken out againts.

The one thing this saga has taught me - putting the allegations aside - is how much of a hole not having coach Fagan around will be.

The old saying ‘you don’t know what you’ve got until it’s (potentially) gone’ is fitting.

So whilst I advocate for fairness for both sides, I also desperately hope Chris can coach us again and the proceedings can be carried out with the notion of reconciliation not combat and in a way that’s fair for all.

 

[Nuggo]

Watch the PR Kennett machine go to work so Hawthorne avoid any sanctions/penalty. He will spin it so Hawthorne should be congratulated.

 

[Fitzroy bears]

Yeah the more I think about it the more it just does my head in

You're a warrior for having the courage to publicize your personal struggles here . .

I want let you know that your posts, IF, inappropriate would have been removed by the mods, so I don't think you have anything to apologise for Maboo.

Your individuality and thoughts are most welcome and I look forward to your next post.

 

[Maboo]

You're a warrior for having the courage to publicize your personal struggles here . .

I want let you know that your posts, IF, inappropriate would have been removed by the mods, so I don't think you have anything to apologise for Maboo.

Your individuality and thoughts are most welcome and I look forward to your next post.

I appreciate that, I do and I have learned to deal with it, I have also learned that emotional outbursts aren’t helpful, especially in a disaster like this. One thing is certain, Western Royboy is the true warrior on here.

 

[BrizzyBandit]

There are plenty of external organisations that can conduct the review that aren't government. And large human resource company.

But if course, they don't fit a invisible manipulators conspiracy theory.

Again not saying there is a conspiracy.
But it sure feels like it

 

[Tom14]

Q & A is much worse, have a panel of about 3 to 4 left leaning guest and one token centre-right liberal. Then there is the left leaning audience asking their bias questions. ABC receives over $1B annually.

LOL

Q&A absolutely stinks but it is very funny that you think the panel is stacked with left wing people. I guess if you think the labor party are communists then that juices the numbers.

 

[Sausages]

From here - https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...s/news-story/25cd173407bb82357092fdc663f62fd7

That's behind a paywall, but the first 2 sentences, I quote:

Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan are being pushed to give evidence under oath and be cross-examined in order to clear their names.
The legal team representing the First Nations players at the centre of the explosive Hawthorn report want this requirement if they are to take part in any further investigation.

Now, look.....if that's not guilty until proven innocent, I'm unsure of a better description.

 

[Nathan Barley]

From here - https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...s/news-story/25cd173407bb82357092fdc663f62fd7

That's behind a paywall, but the first 2 sentences, I quote:

Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan are being pushed to give evidence under oath and be cross-examined in order to clear their names.
The legal team representing the First Nations players at the centre of the explosive Hawthorn report want this requirement if they are to take part in any further investigation.

Now, look.....if that's not guilty until proven innocent, I'm unsure of a better description.

Really?

 

[Cubs2Lions]

Really?

 

[inaralover]

Again not saying there is a conspiracy.
But it sure feels like it

Interesting. My take on this was quite different. I was quite encouraged that the storytellers want an independent group to run the next step, rather than the AFL.

My feeling from this request is that they want both sides to talk and figure out what went so wrong with communication from both sides and then to move forward from here.

Hopefully it is not too late for this to happen.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Given how serious the allegations are I see no issues with this

 

[martinson]

Really?

As long as everyone on both sides agrees to give evidence under oath I don't have too much of a problem with it. The clear implication in the way it's worded is to paint them as liars before it's started.

You probably need a judge running things re the questions /evidence etc.

Tbh the whole thing has become a legal battleground for supremacy and a media circus before its started.

If everyone gives evidence under oath that implies a legal outcome at the end ultimately which is why I don't see an inquiry cutting it when to date the language from both sides has been totally adversarial.

 

[dlanod]

As long as everyone on both sides agrees to give evidence under oath I don't have too much of a problem with it. The clear implication in the way it's worded is to paint them as liars before it's started.

You probably need a judge running things re the questions /evidence etc.

Tbh the whole thing has become a legal battleground for supremacy and a media circus before its started.

If everyone gives evidence under oath that implies a legal outcome at the end ultimately which is why I don't see an inquiry cutting it when to date the language from both sides has been totally adversarial.

Ah, you helped me realise why I didn't see the problem with it while others did - I was assuming that if they're taking it to that level of legal formality, it would apply in both directions. I guess the other posters were assuming it would only be Clarkson and Fagan, which doesn't make a heap of sense to me.

 

[martinson]

Ah, you helped me realise why I didn't see the problem with it while others did - I was assuming that if they're taking it to that level of legal formality, it would apply in both directions. I guess the other posters were assuming it would only be Clarkson and Fagan, which doesn't make a heap of sense to me.

You can see already Dlanod that the lawyers are trying to squeeze every bit of advantage for their side out of whatever the process is or however they can frame it.

It doesn't give me any warm fuzzy feeling that this will be resolved even in the medium term.

Unfortunately the 'truth' whatever that might be is going to be buried under a legal and PR maze for the time being at least.

They're obviously having significant issues with the 4 person panel. Which was to be expected.

 

[MacMum]

Something to think about.....how clubs, or probably all clubs worked back several years ago.

Article in HUN on Dayne Swan selling the house Collingwood made him buy to get him out of living with his mates, they gave him an ultimatum.

I straight away thought of this situation. Just perhaps it wasn't a racist thing after all .... perhaps Hawks were trying to get the accuser players away from bad influences in their lives.....as apparently some clubs did and possibly still do, which seems logical to me when trying to run a club and get the best out of a player.... even parents would do that sort of thing.

....as I said at the bottom of the above post, the article re Dayne Swan's house on HUN site had disappeared after I posted about it...

It's there again now in real estate section of HUN. Photo as well.

Interesting....now reading DailyMail and this house story on there too but has changed to his mates told him to leave.....wonder why the change?

 

[On the quiet]

LOL

Q&A absolutely stinks but it is very funny that you think the panel is stacked with left wing people. I guess if you think the labor party are communists then that juices the numbers.

Where did I mention the labor party are communists? It is not the 1960's

 

[M Malice]

I am all for a full independent impartial (ie. no AFL involvement) case with evidence being given under oath, need to get to the bottom of this with as little ambiguity as possible.

 

[Viceregal]

So guessing getting Gil, Clarko, Fages, the various families and players to all sit down with experienced Aboriginal Elders after spending a month or two deep out back in separate tribal communities in an effort to come to a community of understanding, a sharing of stories and a rebuilding of fractured relationships for the sake of players past, present and future rather than an adversarial zero-sum legal battle is looking somewhat less likely?

Two quotes spring to mind ...

"Though no one can go back and make a brand-new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand-new ending."

“You can be sorry and you can be forgiven but you can’t call back the futures that your bad decisions lost”

 

[Section 5]

We have not heard much from the ABC since the original article
But they put this statement out today
Not sure if the Jackson's are related

Correcting the Record - Media Centre - About the ABC

Information about the Australian Broadcasting Corporation including history, management, corporate reports, plans and submissions and the latest news from our media centre.

about.abc.net.au

The ABC would like to address misleading public commentary regarding Russell Jackson’s reporting on allegations of racism that have been made against Hawthorn Football Club.

It has been stated or implied that the three former Hawthorn employees named in the story were denied a fair opportunity to properly respond to the ABC’s reporting.

This is incorrect.

On Monday 19 September and into the following day all three were contacted multiple times by the ABC, via email, phone call and text message. Also contacted were the media teams at Hawthorn and the Brisbane Lions and the personal management of one of the individuals.

They were provided with all relevant information about the allegations. They were asked detailed and open-ended questions that gave them the opportunity to fully respond to all the allegations.

After initially receiving no response, the ABC contacted all the parties again and offered them more time in which to respond. We again received no response to the questions.

Statements provided by Hawthorn and the AFL were included in the story and the ABC has reported comments that have subsequently been made.

While Russell Jackson’s story reports on the existence of the external review commissioned by Hawthorn, and some allegations made within it, his story was not based on that review and does not quote its contents. His reporting was based entirely on original interviews conducted with primary sources after he was alerted to this difficult and important story.

His reporting has been accurate, fair and ethical.

Media contact: Sally Jackson | ABC Communications

jackson.sally@abc.net.au

 

[Sausages]

Fair enough.

I'm intrigued, on first reading, at the comment "alerted to this.....story".

By whom?

 

[BRAB]

Fair enough.

I'm intrigued, on first reading, at the comment "alerted to this.....story".

By whom?

Your are absolutely obsessed with this part of the story aren’t you?