Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Maboo]

Anyone trying to make this some weird Lions supporter victim complex thing is so far off base it's mind boggling.

Do you work for Youi? You seem to carry a big box of assumptions around with you

 

[Requiem]

Yes it does matter. The entire point of the hawthorn review was to investigate the treatment of first nations people (players, staff, etc) at the club. I don't understand what is sensationalist about reporting this. Pressuring white private school boys to separate from their partners is also wrong and bad, but that is not what the hawthorn review was looking into.

Pressuing indigenous players to separate from their families, or allegedly pressuring them to have an abortion, carries extra cultural sensitivities and impacts given the history of the treatment of indigenous people in this country. It's not the same as the stolen generation of course, but the same strain of paternalism comes through here, if these allegations are substantiated.

My question here is that if Fagan wasn't named as potentially involved, do you think you would be so strong on this issue? A lot of wanting to poke holes in the media report in this thread and I'm not sure we'd see nearly as much of it if someone we have generally liked and respected for his work out our club wasn't named in the report.

I'm having a hard time reconciling the report with Fagan being involved, but if you took his name out from everything I've read about the Hawthorn football club in the last year its very believable that something like this could have happened.

The same sentiment I posted earlier in the thread.

If you take Fagan out of the picture and review several of Clarkson's previous 'incidents' during his playing/coaching career, I can definitely see how this could happen given his rather controlling and confrontational personality.

Good people can be an accessory to doing shit things, especially when they are blinded by a common goal.

 

[Clarkythelion]

It's a principal of law that the accused has the right to confront their accuser, I cant see any solution to this in any way that will escape continuous public debate until the accused and accusers meet in a court room where the full gambit of evidence can be assessed and answered and is judged by a group of their peers. This will just go on and one of they said, he said, she said until it is openly judged for the public to see.

 

[Lions time]

This explains it a lot better than I can. Less talk, more listening Sausages.

More talk from the people being accused is what this situation needs. Let the full story out.


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[Maboo]

If Fagan wasn't named I wouldn't have a vested interest and I'm unashamed to admit that.

And I'm not trying to poke holes in the media report as such, I'm addressing the simmering, emotive conclusions that everyone is assuming by advocating transparency as soon as reasonably possible.

Neither am I unsympathetic to the experiences of indigenous players in the AFL and I am certain every club has its skeletons - hell, we all do as individuals, never mind as conglomerates.

I am simply concerned that Trial by Media is exactly the scenario happening here, everyone knows it, but to put forward a manner in which this could be done more judiciously and equitably for everyone concerned - and let's be frank, that's a whole lot more people than just the named and their current/former footy club - appears somehow controversial.

I get the need to protect the innocent.

I understand the desire to punish the guilty.

I just don't agree with the redacting of relevant facts from parties I would otherwise consider have a need to know. And no, a relevant party AT THIS TIME isn't me or the general footy public.

Agree sausages, if Fagan or our club wasn’t involved, my interest would less than it is.
my main beef is, this behaviour goes against everything Fagan stands for, yet if or when he is found not guilty his life and or reputation has still been trashed.

 

[Tom14]

Agree sausages, if Fagan or our club wasn’t involved, my interest would less than it is.
my main beef is, this behaviour goes against everything Fagan stands for, yet if or when he is found not guilty his life and or reputation has still been trashed.

What if he's found to be involved though?

There are allegations that have been made. Should these not be reported on until an investigation is finalised?

 

[mighty_lions]

Yes it does matter. The entire point of the hawthorn review was to investigate the treatment of first nations people (players, staff, etc) at the club. I don't understand what is sensationalist about reporting this. Pressuring white private school boys to separate from their partners is also wrong and bad, but that is not what the hawthorn review was looking into.

Pressuing indigenous players to separate from their families, or allegedly pressuring them to have an abortion, carries extra cultural sensitivities and impacts given the history of the treatment of indigenous people in this country. It's not the same as the stolen generation of course, but the same strain of paternalism comes through here, if these allegations are substantiated.

My question here is that if Fagan wasn't named as potentially involved, do you think you would be so strong on this issue? A lot of wanting to poke holes in the media report in this thread and I'm not sure we'd see nearly as much of it if someone we have generally liked and respected for his work out our club wasn't named in the report.

I'm having a hard time reconciling the report with Fagan being involved, but if you took his name out from everything I've read about the Hawthorn football club in the last year its very believable that something like this could have happened.

This isn’t logical thinking though, the fact he is named casts huge doubt over the allegations in my mind, a person who has always been of high integrity and values since coming to the club


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[Lions time]

What if he's found to be involved though?

There are allegations that have been made. Should these not be reported on until an investigation is finalised?

Let’s use that standard with the accusers then. What would have come of the Majak Daw case if it was run this way ? Everyone deserves their chance to natural justice.


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[Maboo]

What if he's found to be involved though?

There are allegations that have been made. Should these not be reported on until an investigation is finalised?

As I said earlier, he deserves everything that is coming and it should be substantial, if he is guilty.
I am not advocating for the release of the names of the accusers, just Fagan should have been afforded the right of reply
before the report was handed to the AFL. The ABC piece was released to cause maximum damage, by imo a two bit reporter.

 

[Sausages]

What if he's found to be involved though?

There are allegations that have been made. Should these not be reported on until an investigation is finalised?

No, they shouldn't.

If the allegations were made of me, nobody on this board would know because I have no public profile.

The very same power imbalance that people decry surrounds Fagan etc, is EXACTLY the reason why they ARE reported on.

You want to remove that platform? Don't publish the story until it is confirmed as factual.

Again, some of the very edifices that people complain exist are ignorantly supported because there is no capacity to broadly infer the truth from a variety of sources - we just get told one thing, by one outlet from one person and that's it.

Either this happened as described or it didn't. There's no middle ground there. Currently, the full breadth is uncertain.

But the consequences of that uncertainty are well and truly in effect.

Doesn't that strike you as incongruous, if not undesirable?

 

[McIvor]

Leaving aside the 3 people involved and their families, - which I appreciate is devastating - but from a club level, it feels to me like North and Brisbane are the only significant losers in this where there is massive uncertainty for the respective clubs.

Hawthorn is at the centre of this and its all usual business for the coaches and players which feels really unfair - if people / HAwthorn are found guilty, us and North lose coaches (probably moreso for North given where they are coming from) and are on the back foot coming into 23but what about Hawthorn given it seems everyone who was involved in this sordid mess is no longer their? Do they just get off scott free, processes, policies put in place, they learn from it and move on wthout punishment? Are they even open to punishment?

 

[carnthemlions]

More talk from the people being accused is what this situation needs. Let the full story out.


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Talk or carefully crafted legal and PR strategy?

What if he's found to be involved though?

There are allegations that have been made. Should these not be reported on until an investigation is finalised?

There seems to be a lot of investment from some fans in finding this one weird trick that will get Fagan off the hook. Unless this is all a work of fiction (I'm certain that it isn't), the degree of Fagan's involvement shouldn't matter in relation to the question of him continuing to coach. If he claims to have been completely unaware, that still makes him unfit to continue at an organisation where he has significant power over young Indigenous men.

And again, purely from a practical perspective I'm sure anyone with half a brain at the club would be well aware it would be better to have Fagan trying to clear his name as Chris Fagan and not the current coach of the Brisbane Lions, whether he's on leave or not.

 

[Dom PC]

If Fagan says he is innocent and the club has no evidence or reason to not believe him, he should be reinstated as coach while the investigation continues. What if you sack him and he is cleared? How many millions will the club be paying in legal costs from an unfair dismissal and reputational damage to Fagan?

People saying "we should plan for a replacement coach", I've got to question what that really means? Obviously head office of the club will have contingency plans in place for all eventualities. But are you suggesting, for example, we hire Ross Lyon as an assistant coach while Fagan coaches the team until there is an outcome from the investigation? Is that realistic... I think not.

 

[Saucery]

One thing I have learnt through my life is that there is always two sides to a story .

At the bare minimum.

 

[AFLQLD]

I talked yesterday with someone who has extensive professional experience working in the field of understanding and managing cross-cultural relationships and it was quite eye-opening and somewhat humbling. I sought her out to ask what she made of all this.

Firstly, she stressed to me that cultural misunderstandings in no way justify actions that are simply wrong for an employer to do, especially to young players and their families. Come back and re-read that sentence again later if necessary - misunderstandings do not justify wrongful actions. I’m passing it on simply because I found it so interesting. She simplified a lot of this for me so I am sure professional sociologists could find plenty of fault with what I write.

Her take is that both parties, First Nations players, especially from remote places, and their coaches are likely to have very different world views and drastically different understandings of why people do things. This is built on the value of Us and Me. In some cultures, indigenous and some Asian cultures, Us matters so deeply that the Me cannot easily thrive without Us. If Me “fails” shame results. In typically western culture Me is valued highly and is independent of Us to a large degree. Without the burden of Us, Me might thrive. If Me “fails”, guilt results.

Seeing things through these two different lenses, she could see (and has seen) how cross cultural dealings go terribly wrong.

Eg. If I have money I will share it because what’s mine is ours and my security comes from Us.
Vs…
if I have money, I have to use it for my security and not give any to freeloaders because my security comes primarily from myself.

She said at quite a fundamental level two worlds can collide in such a way that even quite banal conversations can be loaded with misinterpretations. Negotiations in an Us culture are meant to be slow-moving, involve many people and often seemingly never end. In a Me culture, negotiations are meant to be as short and sharp as possible and arrive at a clear result. (The concept of “a quick meeting is a good meeting” doesn’t really exist in an Us culture. Meetings take as long as they want to take).

“Yes” is also a far more complex word in an Us culture than in a Me culture. Yes can mean…I hear you or…I disagree but don’t want to shame you or…I will keep listening…or I don’t understand but don’t want to shame myself…or…plain old yes. Navigating yes and no can be extremely difficult when a person from one culture finds themselves dealing with the other. Put power roles into that mix and she said results can be anything from hilarious to tragic.

Sontimes I realise how little we know about each other.

 

[Lions time]

Talk or carefully crafted legal and PR strategy?

There seems to be a lot of investment from some fans in finding this one weird trick that will get Fagan off the hook. Unless this is all a work of fiction (I'm certain that it isn't), the degree of Fagan's involvement shouldn't matter in relation to the question of him continuing to coach. If he claims to have been completely unaware, that still makes him unfit to continue at an organisation where he has significant power over young Indigenous men.

And again, purely from a practical perspective I'm sure anyone with half a brain at the club would be well aware it would be better to have Fagan trying to clear his name as Chris Fagan and not the current coach of the Brisbane Lions, whether he's on leave or not.

Let’s wait and see, when all the cards have been laid on the table. You do seem to be in a hurry though to get rid of Chris, the man who has almost single-handedly brought this club back from irrelevance. The man who has instilled a CULTURE of honesty and morality.


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[Saucery]

It's a principal of law that the accused has the right to confront their accuser, I cant see any solution to this in any way that will escape continuous public debate until the accused and accusers meet in a court room where the full gambit of evidence can be assessed and answered and is judged by a group of their peers. This will just go on and one of they said, he said, she said until it is openly judged for the public to see.

Yes the AFL LOVE going to court lol.

 

[Maboo]

Talk or carefully crafted legal and PR strategy?

There seems to be a lot of investment from some fans in finding this one weird trick that will get Fagan off the hook. Unless this is all a work of fiction (I'm certain that it isn't), the degree of Fagan's involvement shouldn't matter in relation to the question of him continuing to coach. If he claims to have been completely unaware, that still makes him unfit to continue at an organisation where he has significant power over young Indigenous men.

And again, purely from a practical perspective I'm sure anyone with half a brain at the club would be well aware it would be better to have Fagan trying to clear his name as Chris Fagan and not the current coach of the Brisbane Lions, whether he's on leave or not.

half a brain, well I never, that box must be getting low by now.

 

[Saucery]

One thing I find quite telling is the man this investigation was launched over has been deafeningly silent in his advocacy for Fagan and the one other one. The fact Jeff isn't out there on the front foot suggests there is some legitimacy to these claims and he is laying low before the finger gets pointed at the oversight of the board.

 

[Gadzorks]

Leaving aside the 3 people involved and their families, - which I appreciate is devastating - but from a club level, it feels to me like North and Brisbane are the only significant losers in this where there is massive uncertainty for the respective clubs.

Hawthorn is at the centre of this and its all usual business for the coaches and players which feels really unfair - if people / HAwthorn are found guilty, us and North lose coaches (probably moreso for North given where they are coming from) and are on the back foot coming into 23but what about Hawthorn given it seems everyone who was involved in this sordid mess is no longer their? Do they just get off scott free, processes, policies put in place, they learn from it and move on wthout punishment? Are they even open to punishment?

Good point - does seem like we could pay the price for their problems.

Well, I assume there will be a lions review to test that we don't also have a problem.

Agree with everyone here that Fagan appears to run a caring and inclusive workplace.

What a shit show this whole thing is.

 

[carnthemlions]

If Fagan says he is innocent and the club has no evidence or reason to not believe him, he should be reinstated as coach while the investigation continues. What if you sack him and he is cleared? How many millions will the club be paying in legal costs from an unfair dismissal and reputational damage to Fagan?

People saying "we should plan for a replacement coach", I've got to question what that really means? Obviously head office of the club will have contingency plans in place for all eventualities. But are you suggesting, for example, we hire Ross Lyon as an assistant coach while Fagan coaches the team until there is an outcome from the investigation? Is that realistic... I think not.

I doubt they'd have legal grounds to sack Fagan, and if it gets to that stage it would be fairly obvious that he's not who everyone thought he was. What I'm saying is that the best outcome for the club would be for Fagan to quietly retire or "take time away from the game" before the end of the year. Unless there's some unexpected development this isn't going away any time soon.

We all know how the Hird thing went, and this is several magnitudes worse.

One thing I find quite telling is the man this investigation was launched over has been deafeningly silent in his advocacy for Fagan and the one other one. The fact Jeff isn't out there on the front foot suggests there is some legitimacy to these claims and he is laying low before the finger gets pointed at the oversight of the board.

The thing that really rings alarms bells is this Burt guy seemingly being moved out of the picture into a highly paid but low profile job. That seems to suggest that senior people at Hawthorn were aware something was wrong, and if that's the case then this could really drag on.

 

[Maboo]

It's a principal of law that the accused has the right to confront their accuser, I cant see any solution to this in any way that will escape continuous public debate until the accused and accusers meet in a court room where the full gambit of evidence can be assessed and answered and is judged by a group of their peers. This will just go on and one of they said, he said, she said until it is openly judged for the public to see.

Hey Clarkythelion, I see your avatar is a photo of Simon, do you know him or play yourself?

 

[Sausages]

Good point - does seem like we could pay the price for their problems.

Well, I assume there will be a lions review to test that we don't also have a problem.

Agree with everyone here that Fagan appears to run a caring and inclusive workplace.

What a s**t show this whole thing is.

Yeah, it's a mess alright

I am happy to hold my torch at this time for Fages.

I do so based on the accumulated evidence of his tenure here.

It's upsetting that an as yet unproven accusation from some years ago unsettles that body of evidence.

But, until I am convinced has was complicit, I am prepared to sit with what I feel is reasonably compelling evidence to the contrary.

It is almost purely a character assessment and I recognise that deficiency.

But the counter assessments, based largely on speculation at this point, aren't terribly critical or scientific as far as I can determine.

If I'm wrong, so be it. I've been wrong before about things and I'm confident my ego won't be too heavily bruised.

 

[Sherrinator]

Leaving aside the 3 people involved and their families, - which I appreciate is devastating - but from a club level, it feels to me like North and Brisbane are the only significant losers in this where there is massive uncertainty for the respective clubs.

Hawthorn is at the centre of this and its all usual business for the coaches and players which feels really unfair - if people / HAwthorn are found guilty, us and North lose coaches (probably moreso for North given where they are coming from) and are on the back foot coming into 23but what about Hawthorn given it seems everyone who was involved in this sordid mess is no longer their? Do they just get off scott free, processes, policies put in place, they learn from it and move on wthout punishment? Are they even open to punishment?

You will never see a club in the flag window run a report like this.

 

[Saucery]

I have been thinking about the whole enforced SIM card change and purposely separating people from their parteners, families, communities.

Other people taking control over aspects of your everyday life, such as where you can go, who you can see sounds very much like coercive control to me.

"It refers to a pattern of behaviours used by an abuser to control their partner and create an uneven power dynamic. Coercive control generally involves manipulation and intimidation to make a victim scared, isolated, and dependent on the abuser."

What is Coercive Control? | Relationships Australia QLD

Coercive control involves manipulation and intimidation to make a victim scared and isolated. Learn more about coercive control and how to get help.

www.raq.org.au

"Most Australian states and territories recognise coercive control as abuse. These behaviours are addressed through relevant orders and notices under civil law. However, some suggest that coercive control should specifically be criminalised. Only Tasmania has criminalised types of coercive behaviour. England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland have also criminalised it."

Parliament of Victoria - What is coercive control?

An overview of coercive control and recent developments in Australian jurisdictions.

www.parliament.vic.gov.au

When this type of abuse is directed at an already marginalised group, who depend deeply upon familiar support it's even more damning.