NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

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Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

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[Bugs1977]

I am suggesting that some people in most clubs were racist certainly until the 90s which combined with lack of opportunity at junior level/scouting (and probably a narrow description of who were indigenous) led to under representation.

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Exactly. To sit here and label the HFC racist when no clubs can claim immunity from racially prejudiced pasts is hypocritical. The HFC like the majority of sporting organisations around the world has had periods in time looking back that it would be very embarrassed about but nothing more than other clubs would have. I don't think any club was immune from the laid back racism that was very prevalent in the 70-80s which doesn't make it right but is worth pointing out.

The HFC like any organisation has ground to make up to improve it's culture which is why they conducted the whole truth telling exercise in the first place. The club easily could've swept the findings under the rug to protect a 4 x premiership coach and others but instead did the right thing and turned the findings over to the AFL which was league protocol. If we we're sitting here and discussing why the findings were hidden then I could stomach posters like the big lebowski calling us a 'scum bag club' but we did not. I actually find it quite laughable that the NFC culture is bound by the former club captain boning the clubs former vice captain.

 

[the big lebowski]

Exactly. To sit here and label the HFC racist when no clubs can claim immunity from racially prejudiced pasts is hypocritical. The HFC like the majority of sporting organisations around the world has had periods in time looking back that it would be very embarrassed about but nothing more than other clubs would have. I don't think any club was immune from the laid back racism that was very prevalent in the 70-80s which doesn't make it right but is worth pointing out.

The HFC like any organisation has ground to make up to improve it's culture which is why they conducted the whole truth telling exercise in the first place. The club easily could've swept the findings under the rug to protect a 4 x premiership coach and others but instead did the right thing and turned the findings over to the AFL which was league protocol. If we we're sitting here and discussing why the findings were hidden then I could stomach posters like the big lebowski calling us a 'scum bag club' but we did not. I actually find it quite laughable that the NFC culture is bound by the former club captain boning the clubs former vice captain.

Decades of anti indigenous club policy

Decades of generating income from gambling addicts

Leeching money from Tassie whilst simultaneously working against them getting their own team

Hiding mental health conditions when trading players

A president that racially abused family members of players and talked up his racist doll collection

What did Cyril say? “The only club I wouldn’t play for is hawthorn”

 

[Bugs1977]

Like, couple of hundred years ago?

I know of many aussies that hid their indigenous backgrounds because they were ashamed of it. It's sad but we're only getting to a point in the last 10-20 years where things like that are starting to be celebrated / proud of. I'm born in South Africa (been here 44 years) and the same thing has happened there where people who are mixed race but look majority white hide their coloured past. It's sad but his happens for various reasons like not wanting others to think that you're inferior which in itself is messed up. Where slowly but sorely getting there as a society but we have a long way to go.

 

[ferball]

Do you really think people would call themselves indigenous or be recognised as indigenous in the past like they are these days (this isn't passing judgement on people these days)

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I don't even know where to start with this.

LOL.

 

[ferball]

I know of many aussies that hid their indigenous backgrounds because they were ashamed of it. It's sad but we're only getting to a point in the last 10-20 years where things like that are starting to be celebrated / proud of. I'm born in South Africa (been here 44 years) and the same thing has happened there where people who are mixed race but look majority white hide their coloured past. It's sad but his happens for various reasons like not wanting others to think that you're inferior which in itself is messed up. Where slowly but sorely getting there as a society but we have a long way to go.

Wayne Carey?

 

[perplexed]

Exactly. To sit here and label the HFC racist when no clubs can claim immunity from racially prejudiced pasts is hypocritical. The HFC like the majority of sporting organisations around the world has had periods in time looking back that it would be very embarrassed about but nothing more than other clubs would have. I don't think any club was immune from the laid back racism that was very prevalent in the 70-80s which doesn't make it right but is worth pointing out.

The HFC like any organisation has ground to make up to improve it's culture which is why they conducted the whole truth telling exercise in the first place. The club easily could've swept the findings under the rug to protect a 4 x premiership coach and others but instead did the right thing and turned the findings over to the AFL which was league protocol. If we we're sitting here and discussing why the findings were hidden then I could stomach posters like the big lebowski calling us a 'scum bag club' but we did not. I actually find it quite laughable that the NFC culture is bound by the former club captain boning the clubs former vice captain.

Look at you! You tried so hard to hold it together. Your 'everyone was like us, but we are trying' reasoning doesn't really work, but at least you had a go. Then you throw it away with that bizarre last line.

Going to the footy as a kid in the eighties, there was always racial abuse of the aboriginal players. As a North supporter you would probably hear it more than some other teams because of the Krakouer brothers. There were three teams whose supporters seemed to take it to a different, relentless level. I think you can guess who they are.

 

[Caligo]

Are you suggesting the AFL and most of the clubs are/were racist organisations?

I remember the snide little remarks some commentators used to make about the Krakouers.

I would suggest that would be true of Australian society in general. Some segments might be worse than others though.

 

[Bugs1977]

Decades of anti indigenous club policy

Decades of generating income from gambling addicts

Leeching money from Tassie whilst simultaneously working against them getting their own team

Hiding mental health conditions when trading players

A president that racially abused family members of players and talked up his racist doll collection

What did Cyril say? “The only club I wouldn’t play for is hawthorn”

I'll answer each of your points:

1) Decades of anti indigenous club policy
Once again you're accusing the HFC of something that the majority of clubs did.

2) Decades of generating income from gambling addicts
Most Hawthorn members / fans have been campaigning to get rid of them for years now but yeah hang us for something all clubs did and some are still doing.

3) Leeching money from Tassie whilst simultaneously working against them getting their own team
Please feel free to explain how we were leeching money from the Tasmanian Government and stopping them from having their own team. It's not like we forced them to sign a contract to play some of our home games there.

4) Hiding mental health conditions when trading players
I assume with this you're referring to Nathan Thompson (bi-polar) and Jonathan Hay (drug use). I'm not too sure what the protocol was back then but outside of offering up a player for trade isn't it the club trading for a specific player responsibility to do a full medical? I mean we all know how inept the NFC is but if in Thompson's case he hasn't been medically diagnosed then I'm not sure how it's the HFC fault. As for Hay if he didn't accrue any strikes for taking illicit substances then that is on North for not doing their due diligence but we all know mummy needs to hold Norths d**k when it pi$$es.

5) A president that racially abused family members of players and talked up his racist doll collection
This is something that no Hawthorn fan was proud of at the time and no Hawthorn fan is proud of now. Jeff is a dinosaur and from a generation of people with laid back racism that even though they likely aren't racist (not saying he isn't btw) they say and do things that are racist. The majority of Hawthorn fans are glad he's gone and no longer an employee of the HFC. You don't have to be a fan of the HFC to know that Jeff represented himself first and foremost which is why you still hear from him now even though he's no longer employed by us.

Finally it is worth noting that the ONLY club that really leeches like no other is the NFC. Outside of the start up clubs it is you guys that always have their hands out for funding $$$$ and more recently ridiculous draft assistance. It kind of sounds like the Hawks just have you head f**ked so it might just be worth letting it go for your own mental health.

 

[Rob R]

Like, couple of hundred years ago?

I have a feeling something I wrote is being interpreted other than how I intended. I mean that people wouldn't have identified as indigenous because of how society would have treated them
and the pressure people would.have faced then to identify with the main stream where they could. I think that pressure existed till not long ago.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Rob R]

I don't even know where to start with this.

LOL.

Okay, I think I am missing something with how I am being interpreted, I was commenting on societies attitudes and the way people had to conform.

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[the big lebowski]

I'll answer each of your points:

1) Decades of anti indigenous club policy
Once again you're accusing the HFC of something that the majority of clubs did.

2) Decades of generating income from gambling addicts
Most Hawthorn members / fans have been campaigning to get rid of them for years now but yeah hang us for something all clubs did and some are still doing.

3) Leeching money from Tassie whilst simultaneously working against them getting their own team
Please feel free to explain how we were leeching money from the Tasmanian Government and stopping them from having their own team. It's not like we forced them to sign a contract to play some of our home games there.

4) Hiding mental health conditions when trading players
I assume with this you're referring to Nathan Thompson (bi-polar) and Jonathan Hay (drug use). I'm not too sure what the protocol was back then but outside of offering up a player for trade isn't it the club trading for a specific player responsibility to do a full medical? I mean we all know how inept the NFC is but if in Thompson's case he hasn't been medically diagnosed then I'm not sure how it's the HFC fault. As for Hay if he didn't accrue any strikes for taking illicit substances then that is on North for not doing their due diligence but we all know mummy needs to hold Norths d**k when it pi$$es.

5) A president that racially abused family members of players and talked up his racist doll collection
This is something that no Hawthorn fan was proud of at the time and no Hawthorn fan is proud of now. Jeff is a dinosaur and from a generation of people with laid back racism that even though they likely aren't racist (not saying he isn't btw) they say and do things that are racist. The majority of Hawthorn fans are glad he's gone and no longer an employee of the HFC. You don't have to be a fan of the HFC to know that Jeff represented himself first and foremost which is why you still hear from him now even though he's no longer employed by us.

Finally it is worth noting that the ONLY club that really leeches like no other is the NFC. Outside of the start up clubs it is you guys that always have their hands out for funding $$$$ and more recently ridiculous draft assistance. It kind of sounds like the Hawks just have you head f**ked so it might just be worth letting it go for your own mental health.

Hmmm imagine trying to deflect and rationalise decades of preying on vulnerable people, excluding indigenous people, being represented by racists, with “the afl gives north more money” (less than st kilda of bulldogs over the last 15 years but who cares right?)

Whatever helps you sleep at night and support “the family club”

 

[Bugs1977]

Are you suggesting the AFL and most of the clubs are/were racist organisations?

I remember the snide little remarks some commentators used to make about the Krakouers.

I was born in 1977 so yeah I do remember the Krakouers copped it pretty bad. I remember Dermie coming out years back saying that he said some stuff that he's no proud of and very ashamed. I don't think what he said was to any of the Krakouer brothers but rather just him putting his hand up and admitting to have said stuff on the field to someone indigenous. It doesn't make it right but yes the AFL and the majority of clubs had racist settings only as far back as 20 years ago.

FWIW the Krakouers we're unbelievable and I'd hate to think of some of the stuff they had to tolerate especially when they likely had no one to speak to about how it affected them.

 

[ferball]

I would suggest that would be true of Australian society in general. Some segments might be worse than others though.

Yes at that time it was a reflection of society.

Not all of society but elements of it.

Obviously North had indigenous players in the 70s and 80s, unlike most other teams but even players from other clubs with poor reputations showed some heart. Legend has it David Cloke promised the Krakouers he would retaliate against anyone who racially abused them on field. (I assume he meant later, in private.)

But still, a decade or more later, even after the stuff with Nicky W and Monky, Pagan instructed all our players to target a particular player because of something that went on between that player and Winnie Abraham. Allegedly.

 

[ferball]

I was born in 1977 so yeah I do remember the Krakouers copped it pretty bad. I remember Dermie coming out years back saying that he said some stuff that he's no proud of and very ashamed. I don't think what he said was to any of the Krakouer brothers but rather just him putting his hand up and admitting to have said stuff on the field to someone indigenous. It doesn't make it right but yes the AFL and the majority of clubs had racist settings only as far back as 20 years ago.

FWIW the Krakouers we're unbelievable and I'd hate to think of some of the stuff they had to tolerate especially when they likely had no one to speak to about how it affected them.

If Dermie's really grown and is genuine then we can't really ask for more. If he's grown as a person then good on him.

The krakouers would have had each other and their mob back home, any blackfellas they knew here, etc etc to talk to about it. If they needed to. They may have had teammates and coaches they could talk to about it. I think Jimmy Krakouer grew close to John Kennedy when he coached us in the mid/late 80s.

 

[sr36]

Exactly. To sit here and label the HFC racist when no clubs can claim immunity from racially prejudiced pasts is hypocritical. The HFC like the majority of sporting organisations around the world has had periods in time looking back that it would be very embarrassed about but nothing more than other clubs would have. I don't think any club was immune from the laid back racism that was very prevalent in the 70-80s which doesn't make it right but is worth pointing out.

The HFC like any organisation has ground to make up to improve it's culture which is why they conducted the whole truth telling exercise in the first place. The club easily could've swept the findings under the rug to protect a 4 x premiership coach and others but instead did the right thing and turned the findings over to the AFL which was league protocol. If we we're sitting here and discussing why the findings were hidden then I could stomach posters like the big lebowski calling us a 'scum bag club' but we did not. I actually find it quite laughable that the NFC culture is bound by the former club captain boning the clubs former vice captain.

Just accept your history. You can find racism in all of society in both past and present society and thus the VFL/AFL. But it was more extreme and pervasive in Collingwood and Hawthorn's history than most other clubs. That's just a reality.

 

[South of the Yarra]

I know of many aussies that hid their indigenous backgrounds because they were ashamed of it. It's sad but we're only getting to a point in the last 10-20 years where things like that are starting to be celebrated / proud of. I'm born in South Africa (been here 44 years) and the same thing has happened there where people who are mixed race but look majority white hide their coloured past. It's sad but his happens for various reasons like not wanting others to think that you're inferior which in itself is messed up. Where slowly but sorely getting there as a society but we have a long way to go.

I would suggest not many Aboriginal people were never ever ashamed of their backgrounds. They were damn proud. Being Aboriginal was hidden because it protected people from being abused and racially discriminated.

 

[South of the Yarra]

All clubs have officials, players and supporters who were racist. Anyone who believes otherwise is either gullible or lying. Unfortunately, some clubs are worse than others. You can usually pick which clubs these are by their Presidents. Often, they are the best indicators, Hawthorn and Collingwood were two prime examples.

 

[ferball]

I have a feeling something I wrote is being interpreted other than how I intended. I mean that people wouldn't have identified as indigenous because of how society would have treated them
and the pressure people would.have faced then to identify with the main stream where they could. I think that pressure existed till not long ago.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

You understand most indigenous people were part of a community of other indigenous people who loved and cared for them yeah?

That it was really only interventions from the state (and in some cases individuals) that ****ed them over?

What you're saying says more about how you view the situation than the situation itself.

 

[Gralin]

Hmmm imagine trying to deflect and rationalise decades of preying on vulnerable people, excluding indigenous people, being represented by racists, with “the afl gives north more money” (less than st kilda of bulldogs over the last 15 years but who cares right?)

Whatever helps you sleep at night and support “the family club”

Imagine being so desperate to derail a thread about a serious topic because you don't like Hawthorn posters.

Bit obsessed there maye might want to find something else to do with your time

 

[Rob R]

You understand most indigenous people were part of a community of other indigenous people who loved and cared for them yeah?

That it was really only interventions from the state (and in some cases individuals) that ****ed them over?

What you're saying says more about how you view the situation than the situation itself.

Absolutely, what I meant is that because of the horrible way society viewed and treated indigenous people back then, some would have hidden their heritage not from shame but for protection. As such, the published numbers probably understate the actual number (and contribution) of indigenous Australians.

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[Engimal v3]

What does that even MEAN?

The ABC is from the future

 

[Engimal v3]

Click on this link to read the article: https://archive.md/Ok7Kp

What a true hunk of shit article lol

A long winded version of "too woke for me"

 

[South of the Yarra]

Absolutely, what I meant is that because of the horrible way society viewed and treated indigenous people back then, some would have hidden their heritage not from shame but for protection. As such, the published numbers probably understate the actual number (and contribution) of indigenous Australians.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

I can see both points of view having relevance. ferball you and I know the value of pride in our communities where we were surrounded by love and care. Unfortunately, not everyone gets to see this first hand. I wish everyone could. I can also see much truth in Rob R point as well as I tried to hide who I was for a long time not out of lack of pride but for protection of myself in a non-Aboriginal world. It is not something I am proud of, but I did what I had to do at the time. Would I do it differently now, of course I would but I lost one family at a young age, and I wasn't willing to risk losing another. I thought if people discovered who I was they would take me from my new family as well. I learnt from about the age of 3 that being Aboriginal at the time brought me pain, hurt and torment. Now I could not be prouder of who I am, how hard I have fought and the absolute horror I had to overcome to survive.

 

[the big lebowski]

Imagine being so desperate to derail a thread about a serious topic because you don't like Hawthorn posters.

Bit obsessed there maye might want to find something else to do with your time

I don’t believe I derailed the thread.

I started my discussion today about the decades long hawthorn ban on recruiting indigenous players that only stopped in the late 90’s.

Seems like that’s bang on topic.

 

[Caligo]

I can see both points of view having relevance. ferball you and I know the value of pride in our communities where we were surrounded by love and care. Unfortunately, not everyone gets to see this first hand. I wish everyone could. I can also see much truth in Rob R point as well as I tried to hide who was for a long time not out of lack of pride but for protection of myself in a non-Aboriginal world. It is not something I am proud of, but I did what I had to do at the time. Would I do it differently now, of course I would but I lost one family at a young age, and I wasn't willing to risk losing another. I thought if people discovered who I was they would take me from my new family as well. I learnt from about the age of 3 that being Aboriginal at the time brought me pain, hurt and torment. Now I could not be prouder of who I am, how hard I have fought and the absolute horror I had to overcome to survive.

That was hard to read. So happy that you are doing better now.

Thank you for sharing it with us. Football really does look small and insignificant sometimes.