NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

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[Elixuh]

I don't think much has changed.

Burts account last year of he and the coaches doing a house visit to take Peterson away made it pretty clear that the coaches were well beyond standard employee employer behaviour. However unless there's anything incriminating that was documented it's going to be hard to prove the abortion pressure or racism regardless of whether it was there or not.

If the airport thing is true, should the coaches have ignored Petersons request for help?

 

[HairyO]

If the airport thing is true, should the coaches have ignored Petersons request for help?

These days apparently the answer is yes. Clubs need to avoid being involved, apparently. He should have asked his manager for help.

 

[sr36]

If the airport thing is true, should the coaches have ignored Petersons request for help?

Picking an employee up from the airport is standard.

Boss and his 2ic going around to house to "assist" with a break up isn't.

There's too much potential for coercive control. The footy coach young hopeful power relationship is akin to the director/starlet power relationship.

I'm confident that Fagan and Clarkson were well meaning, but the power dynamic makes it too dangerous for a high degree of involvement in social lives. The industry needs to ensure it's looking after young hopefuls and not just assume that coaches will have player's best long term interests at heart.

Just get Burt to be your manager so you don't have to pay management fees and then have him involved along with the coaches was a terrible decision.

 

[Elixuh]

Picking an employee up from the airport is standard.

Boss and his 2ic going around to house to "assist" with a break up isn't.

There's too much potential for coercive control. The footy coach young hopeful power relationship is akin to the director/starlet power relationship.

I'm confident that Fagan and Clarkson were well meaning, but the power dynamic makes it too dangerous for a high degree of involvement in social lives. The industry needs to ensure it's looking after young hopefuls and not just assume that coaches will have player's best long term interests at heart.

Just get Burt to be your manager so you don't have to pay management fees and then have him involved along with the coaches was a terrible decision.

I think you’d be shocked as to the level of involvement that club officials have in the personal lives of players to the extent that you can’t just unwind it and there is often no capacity for anyone else to help…hence why the club officials do it. Vast majority of the time it is player led not the other way around.

Coaches help players with their finances to pay bills because players don’t know how to do it. Things like that. So who does the player go to in those circumstances?

If club officials couldn’t assist players with this stuff - and I agree there is a risk of coercive control and a million other things - then I think clubs would begin to cherry pick a lot more and not even consider taking on anyone they consider problematic. So Peterson probably doesn’t get the opportunity at Hawthorn etc.

If you want what you’re proposing then it needs to be AFL led and funded in entirety. There are too many financial and capacity differences between the different clubs to leave it to clubs to manage.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

I think you’d be shocked as to the level of involvement that club officials have in the personal lives of players to the extent that you can’t just unwind it and there is often no capacity for anyone else to help…hence why the club officials do it. Vast majority of the time it is player led not the other way around.

Coaches help players with their finances to pay bills because players don’t know how to do it. Things like that. So who does the player go to in those circumstances?

If club officials couldn’t assist players with this stuff - and I agree there is a risk of coercive control and a million other things - then I think clubs would begin to cherry pick a lot more and not even consider taking on anyone they consider problematic. So Peterson probably doesn’t get the opportunity at Hawthorn etc.

If you want what you’re proposing then it needs to be AFL led and funded in entirety. There are too many financial and capacity differences between the different clubs to leave it to clubs to manage.

The Manager they are paying to look after them!

I think the AFL need to ensure ALL draftees are properly represented, from #1 draftee to the last rookie/MSD pick. Make it a condition of drafting that players have appropriate representation. Even if AFL need to fund a "Manager" who will be appointed for you.

Put the Managers Accreditation on the line for any issues and I'm sure they will care - as 5% of 60k rookie contract is unlikely to warrant any attention.

 

[Elixuh]

The Manager they are paying to look after them!

I think the AFL need to ensure ALL draftees are properly represented, from #1 draftee to the last rookie/MSD pick. Make it a condition of drafting that players have appropriate representation. Even if AFL need to fund a "Manager" who will be appointed for you.

Put the Managers Accreditation on the line for any issues and I'm sure they will care - as 5% of 60k rookie contract is unlikely to warrant any attention.

How much do you think a player manager is going to charge to be on retainer to deal with a players personal lives and teach them how to be adults?

 

[sr36]

I think you’d be shocked as to the level of involvement that club officials have in the personal lives of players to the extent that you can’t just unwind it and there is often no capacity for anyone else to help…hence why the club officials do it. Vast majority of the time it is player led not the other way around.

Coaches help players with their finances to pay bills because players don’t know how to do it. Things like that. So who does the player go to in those circumstances?

If club officials couldn’t assist players with this stuff - and I agree there is a risk of coercive control and a million other things - then I think clubs would begin to cherry pick a lot more and not even consider taking on anyone they consider problematic. So Peterson probably doesn’t get the opportunity at Hawthorn etc.

If you want what you’re proposing then it needs to be AFL led and funded in entirety. There are too many financial and capacity differences between the different clubs to leave it to clubs to manage.

Salary cap has just gone up by 2 million a year, most of it mandatorily paid. How much do you think it costs to fund a small welfare and support team that answers to the CEO rather than the footy department? Especially considering most clubs already have a psychologist and welfare officer on staff.

 

[Elixuh]

Salary cap has just gone up by 2 million a year, most of it mandatorily paid. How much do you think it costs to fund a small welfare and support team that answers to the CEO rather than the footy department? Especially considering most clubs already have a psychologist and welfare officer on staff.

Some welfare departments do answer to the ceo directly or in combination with the footy dep. The question is how do you separate all of these areas into silos. The answer is you can’t. Would need to be all done by third parties outside of clubs. Which has its own drawbacks.

Theyre all also still employees of the club whose goal is to win games of football.

 

[sr36]

Some welfare departments do answer to the ceo directly or in combination with the footy dep. The question is how do you separate all of these areas into silos. The answer is you can’t. Would need to be all done by third parties outside of clubs. Which has its own drawbacks.

Theyre all also still employees of the club whose goal is to win games of football.

I think you're just looking for obstacles. It seems pretty clear that Hawk coaches were allowed to overstep their remit and were taking on issues that just shouldn't have been part of their remit.

 

[Elixuh]

I think you're just looking for obstacles. It seems pretty clear that Hawk coaches were allowed to overstep their remit and were taking on issues that just shouldn't have been part of their remit.

I’m not looking for obstacles, my view is that your position is too utopian and isn’t practical re how footy clubs operate and the challenges they face helping players every single day.

 

[sr36]

I’m not looking for obstacles, my view is that your position is too utopian and isn’t practical re how footy clubs operate and the challenges they face helping players every single day.

It really isn't hard for a coach to direct a player to welfare or go directly to welfare if they have concerns and then continue to work on how the team transitions out of defence.

 

[Elixuh]

It really isn't hard for a coach to direct a player to welfare or go directly to welfare if they have concerns and then continue to work on how the team transitions out of defence.

Part of being an effective man manager is building relationships with players and helping them when they come to you for assistance within reason. A player may feel more comfortable reaching out to the coach than another club official. There are a range of reasons and contexts where this may occur.

Like anything there will always be a line. Sometimes finding that line isn’t always immediate. Players aren’t robots who say ‘my problem is X and I need help with X’. Not that straightforward.

Equally this stuff isn’t done in isolation. Clubs have inter department meetings where this stuff is discussed and plans developed to help players. No one person or department is resourced well enough to deal with all player issues in isolation.

 

[sr36]

Part of being an effective man manager is building relationships with players and helping them when they come to you for assistance within reason. A player may feel more comfortable reaching out to the coach than another club official. There are a range of reasons and contexts where this may occur.

Like anything there will always be a line. Sometimes finding that line isn’t always immediate. Players aren’t robots who say ‘my problem is X and I need help with X’. Not that straightforward.

Equally this stuff isn’t done in isolation. Clubs have inter department meetings where this stuff is discussed and plans developed to help players. No one person or department is resourced well enough to deal with all player issues in isolation.

The whole point is that it's clear that the coaches were in charge rather than welfare being in charge.

Even though the reviews were totally different , it's like the Pies Racism review - some terrible practices and protocols were clearly in place at Hawthorn.

 

[Elixuh]

The whole point is that it's clear that the coaches were in charge rather than welfare being in charge.

Aren’t we talking about the AFL generally and not the hawthorn complaints? That’s what I’m talking about. I don’t know from reading the claim and the defence what is true and what isn’t. So hard to know.

 

[Soggy2112]

How much do you think a player manager is going to charge to be on retainer to deal with a players personal lives and teach them how to be adults?

Personal lives no, but I would have thought helping a player to manage their brand or handle the finances correctly is exactly what they’re being paid for.

I’m not saying coaches shouldn’t have personal relationships with players, but when they start trying to become life mentors it can get very dicey.

A coach has immense power over a young player, particularly a fringe player. I think rocking up to a players house uninvited is well over the line.

 

[CharacterFirst]

Not too many Hawks fans posting here lately, at least on this page..

Are they ignoring the clubs problem hoping it just goes away?

 

[hawkman]

Not too many Hawks fans posting here lately, at least on this page..

Are they ignoring the clubs problem hoping it just goes away?

Has something happened since Hawthorn lodged their response to the claim?

We are now in the position of the players have made their claim, Hawthorn have responded to them. The truth lies somewhere in the middle but none of us know if it is closer to one side than the other

 

[CharacterFirst]

Has something happened since Hawthorn lodged their response to the claim?

We are now in the position of the players have made their claim, Hawthorn have responded to them. The truth lies somewhere in the middle but none of us know if it is closer to one side than the other

True.

Shameful issue all round it appears.