NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[South of the Yarra]

There is no way a police officer or teacher would be stood down based on the evidence in the public domain to date.

So bodies react to public domain do they. If there were six families lodging Human Rights and racial complaints about a teacher or police officer they would be stood down Instantly.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Mmmm, I actually saw the look in the eyes of some players, when asked if they feel culturally safe, it broke my heart.

We have a long long way to go.

You can see it. I can see it. Stay strong. Always will be

 

[tassietime]

So bodies react to public domain do they. If there were six families lodging Human Rights and racial complaints about a teacher or police officer they would be stood down Instantly.

Not when the public domain is completely divorced from the legal reality.

 

[Chief]

Not when the public domain is completely divorced from the legal reality.

How so?

 

[South of the Yarra]

Clarkson and key stakeholders including Kennett should have been well aware of Cyril Rioli's traumatic family history. Cyril could very easily be a victim of substantial intergenerational trauma. The club should have been highly sensitive to this and made the environment culturally safe for him. They failed to do this.

 

[tassietime]

There’s just not compelling evidence of egregious racism here (and in addition) the public domain is actually strongly in favour of Fagan, Clarkson etc (not that I think the uninformed, simplistic views of the public domain should ever override a person’s legal rights).

 

[M Malice]

Since the Trump era and the proliferation of social media which led to continual clickbait/gotcha media narratives, the media seems to be more in opinion and taking sides mode than investigative IMO, the western world is getting more and more tribal/divided.

Most subjects are viewed through the prism of either or race/sexuality/gender/political affiliation first and foremost. IMO it gives you a skewed perception of how racist, misogynistic, homophobic a particular society actually is in reality. Some people are on the alert for racists etc on every corner, the terms racist, misogynist, bigot get thrown around too freely IMO.

Racism/misogyny/homophobia in the West is at a very low point as compared to even a generation or 2 ago, it would be a very small percentage of people who are hateful of groups of people.... we can always improve though and are.

At least in Australia our society is not as divided as the USA... yet anyway... although the USA broadly sets the agenda and the rest of the west generally eventually follows.

 

[peetoo]

Since the Trump era and the proliferation of social media which led to continual clickbait/gotcha media narratives, the media seems to be more in opinion and taking sides mode than investigative IMO, the western world is getting more and more tribal/divided.

Most subjects are viewed through the prism of either or race/sexuality/gender/political affiliation first and foremost. IMO it gives you a skewed perception of how racist, misogynistic, homophobic a particular society actually is in reality. Some people are on the alert for racists etc on every corner, the terms racist, misogynist, bigot get thrown around too freely IMO.

Racism/misogyny/homophobia in the West is at a very low point as compared to even a generation or 2 ago, it would be a very small percentage of people who are hateful of groups of people.... we can always improve though and are.

At least in Australia our society is not as divided as the USA... yet anyway... although the USA broadly sets the agenda and the rest of the west generally eventually follows.

It’s not really new though is it, although it’s turbocharged by social media. Outlets don’t have captive audiences via newspapers etc now so need click bait.

You only have to look at all the false interpretations of Darwin’s work by people progressing their own agendas over the decades as an example

 

[Gough]

It looks to be textbook racism if it's all true. Certain players were singled out and treated differently because of the colour of their skin.

 

[tassietime]

Wouldn’t the evidence from Sam Mitchell etc suggest they were not singled out in the basis of race. And is’nt it the current expectation clubs do treat Aboriginal players differently? It’s a complex textbook.

 

[Gralin]

No.

The point I’ve made and you’ve basically agreed with is that our legal system places a lot of value on truth and credibility/reliability of witnesses.

no our legal system places a lot of value in the credibility of certain people

like i said good victim narrative, you and others have been doing it here with your idea that saying anything positive about your employer ever means that anything negative you say can't be trusted

why didn't they report it at the time, why didn't they do x or y

people have zero idea how memory works, how trauma works, what power structures do to people

they think from watching US tv shows like law and order that victims always remember and bad guys always are obviously bad

our legal system might be lauded as blind justice where truth prevails but the reality is far from that

 

[Makeshift Park]

Fagan and Clarkson now need to be stood down pending a Human Rights investigation.

As their alleged behaviour and actions against Aboriginal people is seen as a breach of Human Rights. The fact they are in charge of young men, some Aboriginal it must be deemed that they are unsafe to do so until proven innocent.

It is not a safe work environment for young Aboriginal men. Most other industries they would be stood down on full pay

I take your point that AFL is an unusual industry, but I’m struggling to think of a parallel where individuals are stood down in circumstances where no one alleges a criminal offence was committed.

In the absence of that, shouldn’t the perspectives of Jy Simpkin and Charlie Cameron and the like have primacy over whether they continue to coach under the circumstances?

Assuming that Fagan and Clarkson continue to have their confidence and trust, how would you respond then?

 

[sr36]

Wouldn’t the evidence from Sam Mitchell etc suggest they were not singled out in the basis of race. And is’nt it the current expectation clubs do treat Aboriginal players differently? It’s a complex textbook.

I suspect you're using a more narrow definition of racial discrimination than the HRC would use. You can have practices and behaviours that apply to all cultures that are deemed racial discrimination.

And suggesting disapproval like is suggested in Mitchell's account is very different to the claims made from the indigenous players, even if it is both related to concerns about kids impact on a footy career

 

[Maddo11]

I take your point that AFL is an unusual industry, but I’m struggling to think of a parallel where individuals are stood down in circumstances where no one alleges a criminal offence was committed.

In the absence of that, shouldn’t the perspectives of Jy Simpkin and Charlie Cameron and the like have primacy over whether they continue to coach under the circumstances?

Assuming that Fagan and Clarkson continue to have their confidence and trust, how would you respond then?

I mean, looking back we've had Hodge, Burgoyne, Mitchell and Lewis all say they had no idea about the alleged events

I think it's unfair to put that sort of call on the players who may not have all the info.

 

[JGreezy]

What are the claims against Clarkson and Fagan that are coming from this group? (Noting that this group does not include Zac and his partner)

Peterson claims that Clarkson told him to get an abortion. That is one.

Aren't the rest of the claims against Burt and Hawthorn HR/administration?

 

[JackOutback]

How well is this thread going…

Any time I think this country might be doing better in coming to terms with its racist past, I log into Big Footy and see plenty of people willing to correct me.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

So what's the endgame here for the players involved? An apology? Acknowledging that these things did happen? Proving it is going to take a long time and will go through the appropriate channels. I just can't see what the endgame is, hopefully all people involved can find some peace sooner rather than later.

You raise a very good point as to what the end resolution will be for this massive s..t show.

I’m not totally over how the HRC commission works but surely even they can’t compel Clarkson, Fagan and Burt to make a public apology if they don’t agree to?

And we are forgetting the very real and likely possibility of legal action coming the other way from the accused against the ABC and HFC for defamation, etc.

That’s the problem with how this has all unfolded, once Jackson released his “article” the three coaches had their reputations destroyed instantly and now they essentially have nothing to lose by defending themselves and nothing to gain by going to mediation.

Things are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better unfortunately.

 

[Makeshift Park]

I mean, looking back we've had Hodge, Burgoyne, Mitchell and Lewis all say they had no idea about the alleged events

I think it's unfair to put that sort of call on the players who may not have all the info.

I’m not saying Jy and Charlie should be the arbiters of whether human rights abuses occurred at hawthorn.

I’m saying that in the absence of actual criminal charges, their perspectives should be considered important in determining whether it’s appropriate for the coaches to continue throughout the HRC proceedings.

 

[MacMum]

In the absence of that, shouldn’t the perspectives of Jy Simpkin and Charlie Cameron and the like have primacy over whether they continue to coach under the circumstances?

Assuming that Fagan and Clarkson continue to have their confidence and trust, how would you respond then?

Fagan has the confidence and trust of all our boys. In fact for the 2 indigenous rounds when prior to the match starting and both teams lined up, Charlie

Cameron stood proudly right beside his coach both times. IIRC in one of them he had his arm across Fagans shoulders. Where he stood is usually where the

captain stands beside the coach etc... Not those times, Charlie did.

If that is not a show of support I don't know what is..

We are happy chappies in good old Brisbane Town.......except for the mud thrown at a very good man.

 

[Elixuh]

South of the Yarra has the HRC application been made (I genuinely don’t know)? It may be that once that happens Fagan takes leave from the club.

But at present Fages has the full support of the club and to my knowledge all of the indigenous lions players. Some of who see him as a father figure and have a very close relationship. This must be devastating for those players who know him as someone completely divorced from the accusations that have been made.

 

[HairyO]

I take your point that AFL is an unusual industry, but I’m struggling to think of a parallel where individuals are stood down in circumstances where no one alleges a criminal offence was committed.

In the absence of that, shouldn’t the perspectives of Jy Simpkin and Charlie Cameron and the like have primacy over whether they continue to coach under the circumstances?

Assuming that Fagan and Clarkson continue to have their confidence and trust, how would you respond then?

They dont know the real Clarko and Fagan the way the outraged on BF know them.

So their views dont matter.

 

[Verdun]

They dont know the real Clarko and Fagan the way the outraged on BF know them.

So their views dont matter.

Or the people involved ie the complainants

 

[HairyO]

Or the people involved ie the complainants

Have those who made the complaints said they need to be stood down?

 

[Verdun]

Have those who made the complaints said they need to be stood down?

Have they been asked?

 

[m0zza]

Because there was an ABC article where it was splashed across the headline "he told me to kill my unborn kid".

Because the ABC contacted one of the coaches during the 24 hrs either side of him playing in a preliminary final for comment then published anyway.

Calling BS on that one
Brisbane don’t play in Prelim Finals any more