NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Forward Press]

can you at least give clarkson, fagan the right of reply first, cool your jets thanks

Hi Eddie.

 

[Corleone]

I'm not judging a case though am I? I am a punter that is anonymously commenting on a public thread. I stand by my opinions until I am given evidence to change it.

You mean this thread isn't legally binding!?

What have we been doing here???

 

[sr36]

I’m sure Clarkson, Fagan and their lawyers haven’t slept a wink yet. These are 2 wealthy connected men who will be able to defend themselves strongly, and with all the resources at their disposal. As always it’s going to be the little people who struggle to be heard and believed and the messenger who will be blamed.

None of us know exactly what was said and done yet but it will all come out in due course, I just hope the First Nations players in all this are given the strong resources and support they need too.

I think there will be lots of others who were sleepless last night, praying their name doesn't come up or clubs praying that their coach/assistant coach/football manager's name doesn't come up. There is going to be some heavy bleeding.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Journalists are extremely good at writing a one sided article and then giving the accused 24 hours to respond before its published - its an age old trick. Then the old 'person was contacted but did not provide comment'. Although as I said the accused are in a no win situation given the reaction of the media and public - they are already guilty.

He's a good reporter doing his job. He's not a Murdoch journalist digging for dirt. This is a legitimate public interest/ human rights story.

 

[hyperfuzz]

your like a hanging judge in the old days, i would hate for you to be ruling on any case in a court of law, you have already made up your mind

I agree that would be weird if you walked into court and Judge fishardansin was presiding but what could you do

 

[Wosh]

I think there will be lots of others who were sleepless last night, praying their name doesn't come up or clubs praying that their coach/assistant coach/football manager's name doesn't come up. There is going to be some heavy bleeding.

For sure. This feels like the tip of a Titanic size iceberg.

 

[Father Jack]

I'm surprised by the amount of people that think Russell Jackson is some kind of tabloid clickbait journo who'll do anything for anything resembling a story, but if even Eddie McGuire is apparently ignorant enough to believe this, then maybe I shouldn't be.

 

[Seedsfan]

It did happen at Hawthorn.

And you think your swans are immune. The difference between Hawthorn and other clubs is Hawthorn has actually had a look at their past and their wrongdoings have come to light as a result. Sometimes moving forward and making progress is painful.

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

He's a good reporter doing his job. He's not a Murdoch journalist digging for dirt. This is a legitimate public interest/ human rights story.

I sent detailed questions to Chris Fagan’s Lions email address with 24 hours’ notice.

24 hours notice via email and a phone call to a list of accusations from over 10 years ago - definitely fair and balanced.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Yeah, I definitely get the points you've raised there. The big difference of course is that it very much IS your role as a parent to support your kids, even if that means doing things that they don't agree with at the time, or cause angst. It's completely not the place for clubs to do the same, especially to the extent that's being reported.

There are plenty of examples of the clubs being the closest places to a stable home that many young men have ever had and that older staff are looked on as father figures and are called upon for 'fatherly' advice and.guidance.

 

[Maddo11]

24 hours notice via email and a phone call to a list of accusations from over 10 years ago - definitely fair and balanced.

Boring argument. What could they have replied with that would make a difference in your eyes?

Just playing the man instead of the ball

 

[burge13]

The AFL has a huge problem with power imbalances between players and their employers (the clubs).

The AFLPA are a joke, 'toothless' would be a compliment ...

The president of it is only thinking of his media career post footy. Thats it.

In all seriousness the PA should have taken the media to task this year over the constant nonsense Giniven stories let alone the more serious problems historically. They arent just toothless, its nothing but an illusion of unionisation. They do literally nothing of substance

 

[Forward Press]

24 hours notice via email and a phone call to a list of accusations from over 10 years ago - definitely fair and balanced.

How much notice is 'fair and balanced' to you?

By the way, if you think Clarkson and Fagan would have had no idea an investigation was happening into Hawthorn's historical treatment of indigenous players and thought they as senior coaches wouldn't be looked into - I've got a bridge to sell you that's in Sydney harbour.

 

[fishardansin]

He's a good reporter doing his job. He's not a Murdoch journalist digging for dirt. This is a legitimate public interest/ human rights story.

Well said. This isn't some dirt being dug up on your political adversary ... behaviour that you would justify if someone on your "side" did the same. I'm thinking about Sean Hannity defending the Bush spying laws and then attacking Obama about it too as one of the most egregious examples.

Also, regards the person you were replying to, I have a journalist in the family. They do change print deadlines if the other side of the story wants to speak. It is a much bigger story if they hear the other side's point of view in detail. The story has a much broader appeal as it is read by both sides. It also allows for much more print as there is then back and forwards.

If there are demonstrable mistruths in the allegations people as rich and powerful as Clarkson and Fagan can afford lawyers to threaten lawsuits within that time frame as well. That stops something as underfunded as a public broadcaster from publishing it.

 

[Happy Idiot]

24 hours notice via email and a phone call to a list of accusations from over 10 years ago - definitely fair and balanced.

I think that’s fair, you give much more than that and wealthy, well connected dudes are going to get all the lawyering manipulation they need to shut a lot of stuff down. It quickly becomes unbalanced the other way.

 

[deck]

Garlet? Think he lasted about 6 weeks.

3 months. Reading the articles I don't believe he is one of them.

 

[richoatthedisco]

24 hours notice via email and a phone call to a list of accusations from over 10 years ago - definitely fair and balanced.

It's pretty simple, mate. Either they did it or they didn't. They don't need days to remember which one.

 

[Kapow!!!]

There are plenty of examples of the clubs being the closest places to a stable home that many young men have ever had and that older staff are looked on as father figures and are called upon for 'fatherly' advice and.guidance.

The problem with this is the extreme element of cooercive control exhibited here. Even if you argue the hypothetical that they were helping intervene in a potentially abusive relationship under their stewardship (being fatherly figures as you suggest), using manipulative tactics usually seen in only the most severe cases of Domestic Violence isn't in any way a healthy way of dealing with another case of Domestic Violence.

Even ignoring the abortion claims: Rehoming and isolating/strongly suggesting isolating from ones support network is also a serious form of abuse in itself, especially if the club is seen as this place of comfort and safety.

(I do apologise if I've missed a thread in this back and forth, this post and the last one jumped out at me)

 

[Kapow!!!]

It's pretty simple, mate. Either they did it or they didn't. They don't need days to remember which one.

It's an odd strawman/red herring to be attacking the journalist on, that's for sure

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

24 hours notice via email and a phone call to a list of accusations from over 10 years ago - definitely fair and balanced.

What alternative do you propose then?

 

[fishardansin]

During the Essendon supplements scandal a lot of noise was made about lack of "due diligence". Well, the same could be said of the current Essendon board btw. If this was an ongoing investigation at Hawthorn, surely a phone call to the Hawthorn footy club asking if there were any skeletons in Clarkson's cupboard would have been enough to stop them pursuing his coaching at Essendon. I mean, imagine this stink hanging around him while he coached during a Dreamtime at the G game. Disgraceful.

 

[Doggy Dan]

I consider clarkson a man of integrity based on 20yrs+ of listening to him and listening to his peers talk about him and how he conducts himself as a person and citizen. It’s a massive weight of goodwill that he has accumulated and one word in an allegation by a unanimous source who, if it’s who it appears to be, has close to no reason to be taken seriously, is not going erode that goodwill one ioata. The fact that everyone is willing (almost eagerly) to take these accounts at face value and ignore clarksons impeccable record of developing boys into respected men as well as his voluntary work with the indigenous community over literally decades tells me a lot about how this subject is handled. A hell of a lot.

Let’s believe the bloke in power who is familiar to us is the exact reason this is such a big problem. Priests, teachers, coaches, et al are bastions of servitude and selflessness - most are sincere to their cause, we know many are not.

 

[SplintWhisky]

You've completed failed to grasp the basics of the question... and also what I said ???

I never "just called this racism" I was giving a hypothetical, try reading what has actually been said before you start frothing at the mouth and furiously typing nonsense that has no relevance to my post.

I understood the question perfectly. You asked if Dusty/Lynch got accused of racism by a women before a grand final they were due to play in, should they be stood down?

I responded perfectly to your hypothetical because it was disanalogous to the situation. Why? Your "gotcha" hypothetical just said racism. This has a wide spectrum of behaviour. What is racism to you? Is it making a private joke? or is it matching as a grand wizard burning crosses and lynching people? or could it be setting up camps and making a pointed effort of extermination?

So, if you just want a simple answer to your original hypothetical then here it is; it depends on what Dusty or Lynch did.

 

[bigfarter]

I'm surprised by the amount of people that think Russell Jackson is some kind of tabloid clickbait journo who'll do anything for anything resembling a story, but if even Eddie McGuire is apparently ignorant enough to believe this, then maybe I shouldn't be.

I think there's a few things at play here, including confirmation bias, ignorance and then the natural protective instinct to not believe a story that is so heinous. It's frustrating reading this thread and seeing the same misconceptions come up, such as "Why anonymously accuse these guys? Put your names to it" which completely overlooks it was an external report commissioned by Hawthorn UNDER THE CONDITION of anonymity. Some people are acting like these players and their partners have gone on 60 Minutes to condemn Clarkson when all they did was answer questions for a review into their time at the club. A review that was meant to remain confidential.

Likewise, people are, as you say, acting like Russell Jackson is some two-bit hack who doesn't understand the impact of his article and wouldn't run by (genuine, not tabloid) journalistic practices. I think Clarko has such a cult of personality and is such an esteemed figure that many simply don't want to even entertain the idea that the story is real. It also sounds so extreme that there's an instinct to go "Oh, that can't be true." But on the flip-side, it would be equally mystifying for multiple people to make up such stories for a review that wasn't even meant to be made public. It's a story where, whatever the facts are, there's confounding elements.

Anyway, as with many things these days one can expect most people to "choose a side" and dig in regardless of the facts and evidence that comes out. I have my belief that there's probably smoke to the fire but I'm willing to hear more from the accused side. I'm also happy to ignore whatever Eddie McGuire says because a more hopelessly conflicted and bad faith operator you could not find when it comes to footy, race issues and protecting The Boys.

 

[All_Things_SaFooty]

I think there will be lots of others who were sleepless last night, praying their name doesn't come up or clubs praying that their coach/assistant coach/football manager's name doesn't come up. There is going to be some heavy bleeding.

Lots of clubs head coaches or senior assistants and board members were at hawthorn during the clarko reign.
Leon Cameron, adam Simpson, Luke beveridge, Brett Ratten, Adam yze, Brendan Bolton, Damien Hardwick just to name some were all assistants at Hawthorn under clarko.

As the article illustrates, clarko, fages and OTHER coaches were present when incident took place.
More coaches will be left hoping their names don’t become public in this issue