NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Royce Hafey]

I’m not indigenous and I know many are in the habit of not speaking up for themselves, but he should have quietly informed the pool management that they were acting unlawfully and there could be consequences.

I know you say "quietly informed" - and btw, he may have done so. Yet we have the example of Adam Goodes who decided in a match against Collingwood to make a stand when he heard some racist abuse from the crowd. What then happened was a cautionary tale to any Indigenous person of what can happen if you call out racism.

Eddie was at a pool with his kids - and he had a choice whether to make a fuss and have an argument. This stuff happens to him all the time. How draining it would be to have to fight it at every instance? Middle class white people are taught that it's a good thing to stand up for yourself when you're treated unfairly because, most of the time, when they do so, the outcome is positive. If you're black, it's rubbed in from an early age, that if you complain, things will only get worse - like what happened to Goodes. This is important also to remember when trying to explain why the Indigenous players don't appear to have told other players or the AFPLA about this for so long.

 

[Falcon27]

Yeah I can see it happening. If this turns in to one word against another there are going to be plenty of people that will take sides.

What if, and stay with me here, the allegations are simply made up? Plenty of footballers leave their club with a chip on their shoulder and carry some regret about their careers for a while. A lot blame the coach. I'm not going to put a figure on how likely that is - I suspect it's not very likely at all - but it's at least plausible.

On another point, why didn't the journo at least contact Clarkson and Fagan for comment first? Seems like the ethical thing to do.

He did, they didn’t reply.

 

[fishardansin]

Yep the idea that there are two sides to a he said she says story is crazy isn't it.. we aren't talking about a murder here my friend. We all know why this was handled the way it was, clicks and views for days. The media loves these stories.

Those clicks and views are normally done with by hacks. The same journalist will attack their opposition for doing something and then defend their side for doing the same thing. One of the most famous examples is Sean Hannity defining Bush's spying agency while attacking Obama for the same thing, or the Murdoch's acting outraged at the debt created by Labor social spending, but saying nothing about tax cuts increasing debt.

Considering the nature of the allegations I think the story has been written so that it avoids unnecessary hysteria.

 

[Beerfish]

On another point, why didn't the journo at least contact Clarkson and Fagan for comment first? Seems like the ethical thing to do.

Is this a poor joke? Read the article. How many times does it have to be repeated - they were contacted for comment. The journalist received no response.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Yeah I can see it happening. If this turns in to one word against another there are going to be plenty of people that will take sides.

What if, and stay with me here, the allegations are simply made up? Plenty of footballers leave their club with a chip on their shoulder and carry some regret about their careers for a while. A lot blame the coach. I'm not going to put a figure on how likely that is - I suspect it's not very likely at all - but it's at least plausible.

On another point, why didn't the journo at least contact Clarkson and Fagan for comment first? Seems like the ethical thing to do.

Once again, there are a stack of contemporaneous emails and texts from the time. They will paint a fairly clear picture for investigators.

 

[hyperfuzz]

I have seen this being said, and I'll take your (and others) word for it.

But then he's employed the very well known tabloid tactic of giving the accused a days notice to respond so that they can run with the story and 'claim' they gave the other party the opportunity to respond (it's that line you will always hear "...declined to respond to this story").

So even if the journalist is a serious perhaps his boss or someone above him who is handling his work and it's release has used the old trick before releasing the story.

"tabloids" usually give a much shorter window. 24 hours + more time if required was generous.

also note that none of the statements reference the ABC reporting, just that they had no opportunity to contribute to the Hawthorn internal review. they knew.

 

[fishardansin]

Also, re the 24 hours ....

 

[BringFevBack2021]

Talented young footballers get private school scholarships, so that half of it is unavoidable.

My best mate comes from a lower-middle class family and he played TAC cup footy with Will Hoskin-Elliott and Elliott Kavanagh - however, he was dropped after kicking four goals from CHF. He also had a 10:25 3km TT (second in the Jets that season - believe he’d have been top 5 for his draft).

He never got a look in from a private school because he bloomed late and he got cut from the Jets because kids who played in similar positions knew people.

Would he have made it? Probably not, Will and Elliott were admittedly more talented but he never got the opportunity to prove himself.

However, I wouldn’t assume that classism doesn’t exist in the footy landscape. This was 11 years ago now but based on accounts from a friend of mine who worked with the Cannons there are plenty of kids who get opportunities because of who their old man is, what school they go to or who they know.

 

[gouki88]

Is this a poor joke? Read the article. How many times does it have to be repeated - they were contacted for comment. The journalist received no response.

It is astonishing how many people are firing away without sitting down for 5 minutes to read the article

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Also, re the 24 hours ....

Eddie should shut the **** up when it comes to conversations about racism.

 

[Beerfish]

Eddie should shut the * up

ftfy

 

[Rob]

He did, they didn’t reply.

Fair enough, well played to him then.

 

[maroon and blue]

We're not jury members here, we're not handing down a verdict. We don't need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these things are true, we just need to use common sense. And anyone with a skerrick of it can see there is a problem here.

Clarkson & Fagan will get their due process and their chance to tell their side of the story before any actual punishment comes down. But that doesn't mean your average person can't have a very informed opinion based upon the facts we know so far.

I didn't wait for the OJ Simpson verdict to come down before I made up my own mind.

Your mind is lost. There are no facts, just trivial lies trumpeted by media scum. Yet you readily accept them as fact, they make you very informed. You are all important.

 

[Rob]

Once again, there are a stack of contemporaneous emails and texts from the time. They will paint a fairly clear picture for investigators.

If that's the case, then it would appear both Clarkson and Fagan have just blatantly lied on top of everything else.

 

[Soggy2112]

Also, re the 24 hours ....

Amazing how many people were quick to pile onto the journo about “not giving them time to give their side of the story”, all the while not giving him time to give his side of the story in regards to the claims that Fagan and Clarkson weren’t contacted.

Read Clarkson’s statement again. He says he was not given a chance to have a say in the review, not the ABC article. He never says that Jackson did not contact him, Jackson says he did.

So let’s review:

• Jackson claims in his article that both men were provided opportunity to respond.
• Clarkson issues a carefully worded statement where he does not deny the previous point, even though if he did it would make him look a hell of a lot better.

Sounds to me like they knew.

 

[Chief]

Once again, there are a stack of contemporaneous emails and texts from the time. They will paint a fairly clear picture for investigators.

Did they say they had these emails?

I assume the club would have a corporate email system that keeps these files.

 

[faible]

Your mind is lost. There are no facts, just trivial lies trumpeted by media scum. Yet you readily accept them as fact, they make you very informed. You are all important.

Personally I wouldn't consider accusations of bullying players in to leaving their partners and trying to convince them to get abortions to be 'trivial' but hey, I'm not you.

 

[The Lone Latic]

My best mate comes from a lower-middle class family and he played TAC cup footy with Will Hoskin-Elliott and Elliott Kavanagh - however, he was dropped after kicking four goals from CHF. He also had a 10:25 3km TT (second in the Jets that season - believe he’d have been top 5 for his draft).

He never got a look in from a private school because he bloomed late and he got cut from the Jets because kids who played in similar positions knew people.

Would he have made it? Probably not, Will and Elliott were admittedly more talented but he never got the opportunity to prove himself.

However, I wouldn’t assume that classism doesn’t exist in the footy landscape. This was 11 years ago now but based on accounts from a friend of mine who worked with the Cannons there are plenty of kids who get opportunities because of who their old man is, what school they go to or who they know.

Nepotism is rife throughout sport. And when it comes to work, sometimes it's who you know, not what you know (similar concept).

I have a boy, and if he were good enough to play the game professionally I hope he gets a fair crack opportunity wise. Admittedly he's only 5 months old, and I'm not expecting him to be blessed genetically given my missus and I, we wouldn't be able to send him to private school without a scholarship and he can't walk yet but hearing that story is disheartening (have also heard of similar stories from a much younger colleague who plays footy himself and knew mates that went through the same as what you mentioned)

 

[burge13]

there are plenty of kids who get opportunities because of who their old man is, what school they go to or who they know.

This happens in every walk of life, in every industry, in every state in the country. "Its not what you know but who" is always the cover up for nepotism

The state public service here would fold if they got rid of everyone hired based on who they know. I doubt anyone above middle management would even keep their job

Fact is, its never going to change. Networking has always counted for more than competence, it shouldn't but will. May as well accept it and find ways to navigate around that fact

 

[Harris Pilton]

I expect I’m in the minority here, but I don’t see this as a racist issue. I’m sure that many young recruits with perceived ‘problems’ are subjected to this type of crude, intrusive social engineering, regardless of race or creed. The fact that the 3 players at the centre of this all happen to be indigenous is simply because the matter came to light as a result of a review, specifically, into the welfare of First Nations players.
By ‘problems’ I mean social issues which might be impacting on their ability to reach their full footballing potential.

 

[Ash1337]

Anyone think draft sanctions should be involved? I don't believe fines should solely be enough if guilty.

 

[WaywardSonSon]

What smoke? A journalist and a person with an axe to grind?
Let’s wait and see. Clarkson has rejected and denied all allegations.
People are still innocent until proven guilty in Australia and so far I see no proof.

Hey buddy, do you remember that time that Clarkson had an aggressive alteraction with a Port Adelaide fan, resulting in the fan being punched? No?
Do you remember the time he abused an amateur, junior football umpire at his son's football match? No? I do.
Oh, and do you remember the time he punched a hole in the wall of the coaches box? Yeah, I do.
What a reputable human being he is. He could never have done anything like this...

 

[Chief]

Hawthorn Club Statement, Wednesday 21 September:

Club statement

Earlier this year the Hawthorn Football Club engaged external First Nations consultants to liaise with current and former First Nations players and staff to learn more about their experience at the club.

This important work has raised disturbing historical allegations that require further investigation. Upon learning of these allegations, the club immediately engaged AFL Integrity as is appropriate.

The club will continue to provide support to those who have participated in this process, and their wellbeing remains our priority.

While the process indicated the current environment at the club is culturally safe, it also recommended that some of the club’s current First Nations training and development programs should continue to be strengthened.

The club places the best interests and welfare of our players and staff as our number one priority.

Given the matters raised are confidential, the club will not provide any further comment at this time.

 

[Stumpy Pete]

Given the origins of the allegations (the Hawthorn report) there remains the possibility that this is not something that is specifically targeted at indigenous people but instead all those from challenging familial situations or who find themselves with confronting relationship choices.

Just pretend for the moment the above is true - What if Hawthorn were following an AFL recommended approach? Given its controlling and risk averse nature it wouldn’t surprise if the AFL had what was effectively a “handbook” For how to handle these situations and what type of language to use. What if this handbook had been prepared by or had been ticked off by those with expertise in the area? Does this provide some absolution for Clarkson and Fagan?

Until we know motivations here, this has the potential to be about how the AFL injects itself into player’s lives just as much as it could be a racial issue.

Of course it could be both - with the AFL’s practice in this area being lacking of sensitivity and context when it comes to indigenous people.

Please don’t read the above as denial of the racial issues here - it is more my suspicion that Hawthorn are unlikely to have been handling these issues in isolation from the AFL.

Regards

S. Pete

 

[Bartel84]

Devils advocate - Fagan/Clarkson take new player aside. they have well enough intentions to try put them on the straight and narrow and succeed in their career by imposing personal structures...structures that work for other players but ignores said players individual feelings, needs, circumstance, etc.

There's every chance they thought they were helping. But missing the harm it was doing....

I mean australia has a long history of thinking they knew what was the right thing for First Nations people and thinking they were doing what was right. Doesn’t mean they would get off Scott free.