Review Hawthorn v Cats - match sim - Thursday 23rd Feb, GMHBA

[westhawk]

If we play this bad for the rest of the season, we will be welcoming Harley Ried.

We could almost have him in a Hawks polo out front of the Kennedy statue next week.

 

[peetoo]

I’m wondering if reeves and meek might be too alike and lynch might offer something different. Possibly more effective at the coal face. I don’t think it’s cut and dried

I want them all to do well btw. Given they are relatively young it’s early days

 

[hawkman]

I would be interested to know on the many occasions Geelong had 2 or 3 on 1 in their forward line if it was work rate or if it was because we pushed up the ground as we had the ball and they sat back and enjoyed the space that came from the usual turnover. Hard to say from TV

The one thing that did seem to happen at nearly every contest we would have too many sucked into it and there would be free Geelong players on the outside

 

[Gene Simmons]

I feel we're all over analysing this match simulation.. If you recall last year in the scratch match we lost by nearly 100 points vs Pies.

I think we'll see a better show next week in the official practice match.

 

[peetoo]

I would be interested to know on the many occasions Geelong had 2 or 3 on 1 in their forward line if it was work rate or if it was because we pushed up the ground as we had the ball and they sat back and enjoyed the space that came from the usual turnover. Hard to say from TV

The one thing that did seem to happen at nearly every contest we would have too many sucked into it and there would be free Geelong players on the outside

Been doing it for years and the players are completely changed from 2007-2008. Make no mistake respect them as well as hate them

 

[Glacier]

I’m not sugar coating it

It was awful

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Been doing it for years and the players are completely changed from 2007-2008. Make no mistake respect them as well as hate them

I listened to Steve Hocking on SEN a couple of days ago and he mentioned how Geelong have a “Colleigate” system. It’s like the faces change but the fundamental principles of the institution (coaching style, player development, club culture, etc) remain the same to allow for continuity in team performance.

Whereas the Hawks are basically starting from scratch with a new coach, totally different game style, youngest list in the comp, etc.

Kind of puts it into perspective how much work the club has in front of it!

 

[peetoo]

I listened to Steve Hocking on SEN a couple of days ago and he mentioned how Geelong have a “Colleigate” system. It’s like the faces change but the fundamental principles of the institution (coaching style, player development, club culture, etc) remain the same to allow for continuity in team performance.

Whereas the Hawks are basically starting from scratch with a new coach, totally different game style, youngest list in the comp, etc.

Kind of puts it into perspective how much work the club has in front of it!

Yes we did try to do that, but it didn’t work out. Kennett hating Clarko didn’t help much.

Not want ing to rake over the past by the way, it’s done

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Yes we did try to do that, but it didn’t work out. Kennett hating Clarko didn’t help much.

Not want ing to rake over the past by the way, it’s done

I'd say that part of having a true "Collegiate" system would also be ensuring that all the power doesn't get concentrated with one person (Clarko) who then disrupts other aspects of the business (recruitment, etc).

I get the feeling Chris Scott is very respected at the Cats (for obvious reasons) but he doesn't seem to interfere in other aspects of the club the way Clarko notoriously used to (at least that's my impression from the outside looking in).

Look at the Cats, they are playing (basically) the same way they were playing in 2007 yet still winning premierships/finishing top 4 consistently. That's about systems not people.

 

[Baz_hawk]

Don't read anything into gameplay or structures based off the match Sim. I don't think we saw any consistent plan throughout the game. There were definitely some patches where we did play parts of our plan but our structures were all over the place so hard to really read off of them. The biggest benefit is the footage they now have to analyse and educate the younger guys on where they could improve going forward.

Liked Finn's game, thought he worked hard and was always around the contest. Newk was strong and looks primed for another great year. Nash has really become important for us and looks comfortable in the midfield. I thought Jeka competed well, just needs to improve his repeat efforts but was better than Kosi at reading the flight of the ball and halving a contest. Meek and Reeves looked out best combo but Lynch does offer a lot also. Will be a healthy competition for spots in the ruck this year. Let's hope they can all stay fit so we can see some huge improvements going forward.

My only concerns from the game were Kozis game, where he was constantly running under the ball or dropping easy chest marks. Was hoping to see him doing a bit more after the intraclub match but he was poor. The other concern was the ball use of Bramble, Scrim and Worpel. All of them butchered the ball way more than you'd like to see. Scrim is usually a good user so I'll forgive him but Bramble was a big concern if we are playing him out of defense. We can't afford to be turning it over in our defensive half like he did. Worpel on the other hand just kept bombing away to the opposition's advantage and rarely lowered his eyes.

 

[Jet_black]

Agree with the SC’s sentiment. It is really plug and play with them. Someone from the VFL side can easily slot into the AFL side because they have the same elements of coaching and style. They also have mainly recruited from the Barwon area and that helps with talent identification and putting their efforts into local clubs. Sounds like a throwback to the 70s and 80s where clubs had their own recruiting zones.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[TheFourPillars]

Complete over analysis of a Match-simulation, where two teams had different goals: (Watched the first six "quarters", bits of the last two)

Position

Clearances: (Reeves/Meek/Lynch, Day, Newcombe, Worpel, Ward, Nash, Maginness) We didn't set up well to take advantage of Reeves tap dominance. I didn't notice Meek or later Lynch as much, but Reeves probably won 90% of the "fair" bounces (a lot of bad bounces were let go). Newcombe stands his opponent, pushes off and is already on the move as the rucks tap the ball - one reason I believe he is able to break so many tackles when he wins the ball - he already has momentum. He can stand an extra 2-3m from the contest as he moves in to the contest. Day was superb as defensive side sweeper, best stint on-ball I've seen from him, using his acceleration and vision to change direction. He seemed to be drawing the most defensive attention at the bounce, but perhaps this was as he was looking for space, not to compete physically like Newk. Worpel tends to stand clear of his opponent, then engages as the ball is bounced. This leaves him flat footed so when he does get the ball he is immediately under pressure. I felt it worked better with Ward (moving) or a bigger body there IMO - we looked far better once Nash and also Maginness took their rotations.

Offensive Transition: (Moore, Wingard, Macdonald, Amon, Impey, Scrimshaw). Amon gives us something we've lacked - his touch was fantastic, and already seems to have developed a connection with Wingard. Offensively we struggled to link up, with Geelong's defensive positioning consistently giving them numerical advantage. In the entire game we managed maybe a dozen clean entries - cutting back from HBF to the middle, overlap running to give us clear space to lead into. It was very obvious we were kicking low and angular to minimise Geelong's ability to intercept - so many kicks fell 2-5m short or were so slow as to lose the advantage. Similarly, we used forward handball and RUN to open up the play. The fluidity needed for this tactic to work will hopefully come with practice. The "dump" kicks forward were much less - and almost universally due to pressure requiring quick disposal. Impey and Wingard gave us good run early then seemed to disappear. Not sure if fitness or minute management; or Geelong tightening up on them.

Forwards: (Greene, Kosi, Butler, Rucks). Less said the better. Greene looked very good on the lead, constantly finding space at speed. Kosi looked hampered physically - and a few times seemed to be out of the contest mentally. Previously he's excelled when "the main man" and allowed to lead - hopefully just a case of a very good zone defence taking all his space. Butler was lively without being that dangerous, but felt we burned a lot of ball across half-forward and were poor at the contest and on turnover.

Defensive Transition: (HF/Midfield)
Defensively, we were a mess. Very disorganised, and seemed to be caught between attempting to pressure the disposal, and giving some defensive coverage. Too often Geelong just played "checkers" down the field, constantly having an open man to release too forward of the ball. Clarkson always had defensive patterns settled first, then worked an attacking plan from defence. Mitchell seems to want to play in our midfield/forward line, but with so many aggressively-orientated players we were overcommitting and on turnover getting badly exposed.

Defence: (Blank, Frost, Sicily, DGB, Hardwick etc)
Despite the scoreline, I though our defenders were good when "at the contest". Geelong are brilliant at boxing our the drop zone, allowing one player to mark almost uncontested as the rest block their opponent. I didn't feel this happened a great deal, as our issues all stemmed from the (lack of) midfield pressure, allowing Geelong players forward of the ball. Our defenders positioned themselves aggressively, playing in front of their opponent. There was very little team-work, with Geelong (as always) exceptional at keeping space in matchups. The ball came in so quickly and "over the top" that for the most part the aggressive positioning was misplaced. Some (Sicily, Hardwick, Scrimshaw at times) coped better than others by backing themselves in. DGB (first positive comment, there will be a few) got better every minute of the game.

Player Thoughts:
Morrison - DNP
Lewis - DNP
Newcombe - Says a lot about how good he is that a good game is just "expected".
Impey - Speed and balance, two things we didn't see last year. I've been a critic and not seen "it" in him, leaving him out of my 22. I still think he's borderline, and worried he wasn't as prominent after the early burst, but hopeful.
Worpel - At the first bounce I went to look up who was in #5 as I couldn't remember. Says a lot about where Worpel is at, as looked like he couldn't remember how to football either. Need to find a way to clear his head, he is slow and reactionary - like he's thinking instead of just doing. Simplify his role, clear his head and we may see 2019 again, but it's looking more and more unlikely.
Sicily - Blew out the cobwebs. Competed well, had a run around, got a few kicks. Compare him to Stewart who dominated his section of the field in the same role for Geelong. Expect far more from our captain.
Reeves - Typical Reeves game. Dominated taps, which the midfield didn't take advantage of, but did nothing around the ground. Up forward always seemed 5m off the play - still adjusting to the new role, or just not capable of playing KPF. Disappointing he was manhandled regularly without reward, then when he used physicality it was penalised. Has started the "watching-his-opponent-rather-than-the-ball" technique so ingrained in Hawthorn rucks through our recent history. You are tall, back yourself to get to the ball first.
Frost - His desperation saved a handful of goals, even when outnumbered on the last line. Coped better than most left isolated, but with all our KPD, was fighting an impossible battle.
CJ - Did he play? I genuinely can't remember seeing him now.
Amon - Smooth as silk. Watching him was how people described Impey when he first came across. Covers the ground, beautiful disposal - already linking up well with Wingard. I felt a number of times we ignored him in space wide for easier disposal options. Will spend more time in the square in our team than Port, but IMO is best used as an aggressive linkman off the wing. Didn't notice him defensively, which in a team so over-run on turnover could be either good (was covering his man), or bad (not in the same postcode).
Nash - Typical Nash game, did some good things, seemed to have embraced the "just get it to a teammate in space, anyway you can" mantra with lots of dinky around the corner kicks. Isn't suited to playing wing/outside, despite his speed/endurance is best at the contest.
Day - For mine one of the best games he's played. That attacking role sweeping off the back of the contest allows him to utilise his acceleration, and he's genuinely dual-footed (for 2023). He gets hit a lot as he takes the game on, but hopefully his body is now at the point he can withstand the hits better, and his aggressive mindset gets team-mates into space.
Moore - Hit the scoreboard, worked hard. Industrious hard-working player who I can't quite work out how he does it. Maybe destined to spend more time forward, as our new aggressive gameplan will require lots of defensive running coverage from HF.
Scrimshaw - Bad Jack. My grandma has a better handball, and she's been dead 15 years. Cannot question his toughness in the air, he will back into the unknown pack without hesitation - but will offload to anyone (no-one) at the slightest hint of a tackle. Has he been paired with Newcombe or Nash in training or something? Seemed to struggle with conversion from mark-kick to run-n-gun from defence, achieving neither. He needs to be a deeper/wider option, releasing by foot up the wings.
Hardwick - At his best goes completely unnoticed. I barely noticed him apart from being stepped once, and a blind clearing kick to a nest of Cats. Like his captain, given a pass for miles in the legs.
Bramble - Was in a lot early from HBF - our new run'n'gun rebound style should suit him. Is one I haven't rated previously, so was pleasantly surprised, especially as he showed some hardness defensively to neutralise a couple of contests I haven't noticed previously.
Meek - Geelong's rucks are all mobile and physical, Meek seemed to spend an inordinate amount of time up forward where he was ineffectual. When rucking around the ground he was a physical presence after the contest, but didn't offer much in the ruck itself.
Lynch -
Wingard - I think he will love what Amon gives our midfield, and just hope he has the fitness and can give us an injury free season.
Stephens - DNP
Breust - DNP
Koschitzke - Had a genuine chance to stamp himself as our FF, but put in one of his worst performances. He's always struggled as the second/third forward, but competed well when numero uno. Yesterday he didn't even compete.
DGB - I've been a huge critic, (mainly due to spending so much draft capital) but as the game wore on, and he matched up against VFL opponents he rose to prominence. Still too small, slow and way too light to play that role at AFL - but there was more than a flicker of potential there. Perhaps he has finally reached the baseline fitness required to play a game competitively.
Ward - Plays like a prime midfielder already, fits in well with Newk and is comfortable with the physical aspects of the role, always distributes well and makes good choices. I'm confident he is going to be a solid B-grader at worst. What a difference access to top level talent makes.
Greene - Who would have thought a fast, fit, strong leading forward would do well in an AFL system? He can play 100 games of AFL like that and have a strong career despite a later start.
Long - Not a liability at AFL level, and as the standard dropped to VFL he got better and better. Is noticeably quicker than last year, and with his big body gives flexibility around the ground. Amusing how often he and Ward end up in the same combination - you can tell they've spent a lot of gametime together.
Mackenzie - DNP
Serong - DNP
Butler - Pace, aggression, hard at the contest. Small and light but his efforts overcome those limitations. Another who started brightly then faded - not sure if his opponent tightened up, or he just couldn't find the same space as our system started to falter.
Macdonald - I honestly forgot about him until the 3rd quarter when he was prominent in a few plays across HF. The video with Hale telling him to focus more on getting dangerous than just getting touches is telling.
Maginness - Released from tagging responsibilities, and gave us a bit of drive. Like Nash, his best play seems at the contest, rather than around it - suggesting a centre-square mid rather than wing (despite his running prowess).
Brockman - held back for the VFL game, was clearly a step above in talent. Another others have raved about and I have been cautious, he has the talent and unique abilities to be a good AFL player, just needs to find a way to stay involved.
O'Hara - assume he DNP, but still don't really know who he is.
Morris - DNP
Blanck - The extra couple of seasons are obvious compared to DGB, and Blanck is much better when standing shoulder-to-shoulder. Struggled with the aggressive positioning, was too slow to adjust back to his opponent on the (regular) turnovers and caught 5m off the contest. For someone who offers little offensively, I would be more comfortable him just keeping the opposition FF quiet.
Weddle - Clear he hasn't been a winger before. Didn't seem to know how to get involved, and give his team-mates options. Think he's far more comfortable as a HBF but uncertain about his disposal. Can see the comparison to Blicavs - taking an athlete and finding a position for him to excel.
Ramsden - Don't remember him playing?
Jeka - Looked GOOD as a leading forward later in the game, gave us something we had missed with Kosi's poor showing. Still behind Greene for the 3rd forward, but with Lewis out and Kosi struggling we need someone to give us a target. I'm a fan from what I saw at Box Hill a few seasons back.
Mitchell - Don't remember him playing?
Bennetts - Think it was him throwing himself into a couple of contests in the forward line? By the time he was on I wasn't paying that much attention.
B.MacDonald - First look, I didn't notice like others have but guessing he did plenty late after I'd lost interest.
O'Sullivan - Impressed a couple of times, he has a desperation about him and surprising physicality.
Hustwaite - Lovely handskills, his "evasion while standing still" makes me think of Pendlebury. I read he is a long way short of fitness required, and didn't notice his kicking but he looks very comfortable in tight congestion manipulating space around himself and backing himself to find good options under physical pressure.

A+ for effort mate this early in the season

 

[TylerDurden]

The difference for me, was the pressure the Cats put on us when we had the ball. Firstly, we couldn't cope. Secondly, we couldn't replicate it when they had it. The 2nd point annoys me the most, as that is pure effort based.

 

[Mojo]

I’m not sugar coating it

It was awful

It truly was. Painful. BUT it's a practice game, and we're young/inexperienced. Synergy takes time.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Are you sure? I thought I saw him playing earlier than that.

Definitely played in the first, also pretty sure second.

Dunno if answered already but pretty sure he didn't come on until the 4th quarter. I thought he was playing early on too but it is because Weddle looks similar at a distance/average stream with a similar build/height/haircut and is number 37 (Long 27).

 

[Jet_black]

Dunno if answered already but pretty sure he didn't come on until the 4th quarter. I thought he was playing early on too but it is because Weddle looks similar at a distance/average stream with a similar build/height/haircut and is number 37 (Long 27).

He was on Q4 as well as Q5,6 and 7. Didn’t see him play Q8.

I think most of the AFL listed guys were rested in Q8 which is when the Geelong VFL side gained the ascendancy.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

I'm reasonably certain we'll play a hell of a lot better than that this year. Probably as soon as next week. But that's not setting a very high bar of course, and actually winning games is another matter altogether.

Some positives to take away I thought -

We didn't get annihilated at the centre bounces, actually held our own at the stoppages for the most part

Wingard on limited time did some good things

Ward does look a player

Long not bad and then quite dominant in the VFL game

Blanck doesn't lose one on ones

In the VFL game I thought Seamus took a big step forward, finally putting on show his one weapon, his speed. Took the game on throughout. Didn't always work but at least he'll be watchable this year as opposed to invisible

Bailey Macdonald super exciting

Jack O'Sullivan has tricks and intensity

Box Hill should be good to watch and pretty competitive - the display today was basically the bottom of their list plus Callum Brown. No senior Box Hill players like Beasley, Horner, Cavarra, Mascitti (is he playing?), Ed Phillips or Cal Porter. Also missing recruits Naish and Trudgeon who were excellent last week.

Lots to like from the Box Hill kids.

Cats VFL side isn't that crash hot. There's solid depth down to about their 26th-28th player but it falls away a fair bit after that. Our team and list is more even. They threw SDK forward in the main game for that reason. Lose Cameron or Hawkins for any period of time they will be relying on Henry and Stengle to kick their goals. Their Key forward depth is average it's just that it gets disguised by how good their best forward line is.

 

[PenAndPaper]

Dunno if answered already but pretty sure he didn't come on until the 4th quarter. I thought he was playing early on too but it is because Weddle looks similar at a distance/average stream with a similar build/height/haircut and is number 37 (Long 27).

Nah was my bad read it as Ned Reeves not Ned Long haha

 

[FactsNotBS]

Decent in the middle period, but then some stinkers again in the 4th quarter

Yeah but ran out the game well in 33deg heat! Yes, two uncharacteristic mistakes…Im cutting him some slack given the conditions, probably dead tired but working hard.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[FactsNotBS]

Geelong has walked all over us. It's no surprise considering Hardwick, Scrimshaw, Sicily, and Frost appeared to give little to no effort all day, and they're usually the ones setting the standards for intensity. We did this against Collingwood last year as well. I am not worried in the slightest. Will Days (no pun intended) such as this occur? Yes, as they did last year, most notably against St. Kilda and Gold Coast. But I saw improvement even in a disappointing game like this. It was pleasing to see us be competitive at winning the centre clearances. Additionally, there were signs of a potentially successful ruck duo between Reeves and Meek. Finally, Hustwaite exemplified some of the cleanest hands you could see from a player, let alone a youngster.

I thought I defensive structure was poor in the first half. With every Geelong forward entry, it seemed our normally good interceptors were watching where a man was instead of going at the footy. Cats seemed to literally “push” the limit of a push free kick many times!


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[FactsNotBS]

We'll just ignore him going back in the flight to stop a Geelong mark with 5 minutes to go, shall we?

Maybe we should just change this thread name to 'Scrimshaw - whipping boy 2023.'

First game of the season and here come the lynch mobs.

Apart from a couple of poor handballs in 33 deg heat, I thought Scrim was in our best in the second half when most others dropped off. Interesting how two obviously uncharacteristic mistakes overshadow about 20 elite things he did in Hedges opinion!!


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Amused that people were disappointed in a lack of aggression in a practice match. Totally worth getting yourself fined or earning some carry over points in a game that means absolutely nothing. Same goes for those lamenting the overall result. The youngest and most inexperienced side in the competition got schooled by the reigning premiers fielding a fairly competitive side - who'd have thunk it! The scoreboard isn't going to be where you find joy this year - it's going to be watching the kids develop.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

So far we have looked the worst of any of the teams who have played. North played a good side as well and we're much more organised and competitive. There about as far back as us so it's a bit of an eye opener how poor we were yesterday. Geelong is very very good but not 85 points better in cruise control. Alot of self inflicted fundamental errors mixed with schoolboy defending. We need to see some sort of system next week against the Pies. Don't care about the result need to see more competitiveness across the board.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Geelong is very very good but not 85 points better in cruise control.

Yes, they are that much better than us at present, no matter how much that hurts to say. They just won a flag and added to their list - we are at the very early stages of a rebuild and have the youngest and most inexperienced list in the comp. If they won a grand final by 81 points why is it so crazy they would put on a similar show against us?

 

[CHUBBSS]

N

So far we have looked the worst of any of the teams who have played. North played a good side as well and we're much more organised and competitive. They’re about as far back as us so it's a bit of an eye opener how poor we were yesterday. Geelong is very very good but not 85 points better in cruise control. Alot of self inflicted fundamental errors mixed with schoolboy defending. We need to see some sort of system next week against the Pies. Don't care about the result need to see more competitiveness across the board.

Never read to much into pre season games… Carlton use to win the flag every pre season