ThePuppetMaster
Yay
Schwab and Stynes have resurrected our club, we are at a crossroads now, but we'll get through it
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
How has Dean Bailey escaped the axe?
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Schwab and Stynes have resurrected our club, we are at a crossroads now, but we'll get through it
That is because Melbourne offloaded all their senior blokes...as part of their 'youth policy'
Guys like Bruce, MacDonald, Robertson were sent packing against their own wishes.....even Whelan, Wheatley were club stalwarts who may have kept playing if not for the club policy. That is bout 1000 games experience right there.
I repeat Bailey has shown nothing as a senior coach, and has been given a free ride because the club as a whole accepted, even encouraged, losing.
Which other club would accept a coach leading their club to 18 wins out of 73 games????
ThePuppetMaster
Yay
Why do you care so much?
What a joke. Do you not recall the state of Collingwood before Eddie stepped in and took control? He's still there, you know. How much do you think the Pies rely on Eddie?
If you want to point at the deficiencies of Melbourne, be my guest, there are plenty, but Jim Stynes is not the area to point to. I don't think he was even on the board yet when Melbourne appointed Bailey in the first place (I could be wrong about that one). Melbourne's problems are about the football department, mostly coaching. there's no need to bring the president/CEO into it.
In fairness to the Dees, Bailey inherited a rotten list from one N.Daniher. When he arrived he had a very good group of over 28's and some talented youngsters under 21/22 but not a heck of a lot in between in the 23-27 range. History shows that this age bracket of players are the ones who lead you to finals and premierships.
People who compare Hawthorn and Collingwood's relatively quick rise are forgetting that these clubs had established leadership groups and a more even spread of the 23-26 year old/50-100 players like Hodge, Mitchell, Maxwell, Swan etc.
I think Bailey made the right call on McLean so far and Trav Johnston, to be honest I think he would have liked to have offloaded Brad Green too but he was around the 29/30yo mark when Bailey arrived, and that limits the trade options to the 2/3 teams who are around the premiership window.
I'm always amazed at how little criticism Daniher has received for the state he left the place in. He must have a few mates in the media ala Wallet.
People who compare Hawthorn and Collingwood's relatively quick rise are forgetting that these clubs had established leadership groups and a more even spread of the 23-26 year old/50-100 players like Hodge, Mitchell, Maxwell, Swan etc.
I think Bailey made the right call on McLean so far and Trav Johnston, to be honest I think he would have liked to have offloaded Brad Green too but he was around the 29/30yo mark when Bailey arrived, and that limits the trade options to the 2/3 teams who are around the premiership window.
I'm always amazed at how little criticism Daniher has received for the state he left the place in. He must have a few mates in the media ala Wallet.
The point being that St.Kilda could have told Peckett, Thompson and S.Powell to hang up the boots early. They could have forced Burke and Loewe into retirement to stop them 'stealing' games from kids in 01 and 02.
Then their list would have been light on for senior talent....just like poor old Melbourne.
I didn't start the thread mate......Im just commenting in it.
Melbourne fans should be demanding heaps more from their club and Bailey, it seems they are content with being poor as long as they have a 'youth policy' and can waffle on about talented draft picks.
When was the last time they won a game of note...not talking about victories against poor non-vic teams at the G?
Tas
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TheBrownDog
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I like the look of Watts, he doesn't have the physique for that gorilla lead out forward role but he has nice hands, is a good kick and makes good decisions, could become a very good CHB.
Going back to list changes since Rd1,2008 we had the following team:
Gone:
Grant (301 games)
Simpson (306 games)
Thompson N. (179 games)
Hale (129 games)
Harding (141 games)
Harris (149 games)
Power S. (123 games)
Gibson (65 games)
Watt (155 games)
Jones (157 games)
Played:
Petrie
Harvey
Thomas
Edwards
Wells
Pratt
Firrito
Thompson S.
Rawlings
Injured:
Campbell
McIntosh
Only had 9 on-field from then, 10 gone and 2 injured. Of the 10 lost that is 1,705 games of experience. it is the experience lost that hurts when it comes to be competitive and consistent.
Going back to list changes since Rd1,2008 we had the following team:
Gone:
Grant (301 games)
Simpson (306 games)
Thompson N. (179 games)
Hale (129 games)
Harding (141 games)
Harris (149 games)
Power S. (123 games)
Gibson (65 games)
Watt (155 games)
Jones (157 games)
Played:
Petrie
Harvey
Thomas
Edwards
Wells
Pratt
Firrito
Thompson S.
Rawlings
Injured:
Campbell
McIntosh
Only had 9 on-field from then, 10 gone and 2 injured. Of the 10 lost that is 1,705 games of experience. it is the experience lost that hurts when it comes to be competitive and consistent.
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Can't believe this is coming from a Collingwood supporter. Last season they narrowly lost to you and then forced you to a draw. Yes, they're inconsistent but suggesting they can't rise for the occassion is pretty funny.
If you bothered to research that claim, you'd see that most Melbourne supporters are very impatient about our progress. How would we convince you that that is the case? I've been ropeable about our performances and very clear that I don't believe Bailey can get us there. Plenty of others hold the same opinion.
You just assume that what you say is true just because Bailey is still there, but you don't bother to really check what fans are saying. Hey, it's of little importance to you what Dees supporters think, but expect to be called on it if you speak rubbish.
But that goes against what Bailey is trying to do. What you're saying is they could've kept those guys on and eeked out a few wins but what does that do for them for the next 10 years? It takes years to build a premiership list unless you're lucky enough to happen on a Gary Ablett or a Wayne Carey. We all marvel at the likes of Mark Thompson ans Mick Malthouse, but it took Thompson 7+ years to turn Geelong into a powerhouse and Malthouse has been in the gig since 1984. He'd want to know a bit about the job.
CowboyFromHell
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If you paid any attention to Melbourne fans you would know we demand alot of our club. We aren't content with being poor - you just keep rolling this one out as it's all you've got. And it isn't much.
While we haven't had any huge wins of late we did thump Sydney at the G and run you guys (twice), the Dogs and the Hawks (the second time) right to the wire last year. Improvement is there, and it's expected at a higher rate this year.
1. He was given a three year contract on the basis of developing and recruiting a core group of under 23's for a possible flag from about 2015.
2. W/L were probably not seen as important in the first two years as the priority was getting games and experience into young players as well as carefully managing the retirements of stalwarts White, Yze, Neitz etc.
3. There have been mitigating circumstances such as injuries, a lack of senior leadership as well as a lack of facilties during the initial phase of his coaching career.
The above reasons are why he has escaped the axe however I'm not certain he will continue to.
2. W/L were probably not seen as important in the first two years as the priority was getting games and experience into young players as well as carefully managing the retirements of stalwarts White, Yze, Neitz etc.
3. There have been mitigating circumstances such as injuries, a lack of senior leadership as well as a lack of facilties during the initial phase of his coaching career.
The above reasons are why he has escaped the axe however I'm not certain he will continue to.
Eth
For sale
Bruce - Past it, somehow wanted a two year contract that he woul never have gotten at Melbourne.
McDonald - Could have had one more year, decision was harsh.
Robertson - Past it, wanted to keep going but offered little.
Whelan - Past it.
Wheatley - Past it.
And to add more to that list:
Johnstone - Delisted by Brisbane who are currently 17th on the ladder. Got Grimes.
McLean - Saw a premiership sooner in Carlton, now can't make their team. Got Gysberts.
Miller - Great VFL player, average AFL player.
Neitz - Injury forced retirement.
White - One of the better players, but was 1-2 years off retirement.
Yze - See White.
The players we had during the Daniher era were all B grade players (arguments can be made for Yze, White, McDonald and Neitz, but they weren't elite) of similar ages. Daniher tried and tried and tried to get a premiership out of these B grade players but he couldn't, and then it got to the stage where all of these players were 28 and older, they got slower, they got less skilled, and Melbourne got shit. That was 2007 and Daniher's last year.
2008, these players are one year older, more slow, less fit, and less capable of playing AFL. Bailey made the call that these players didn't have much longer left in the game and started blooding the young players.
We lost most of our experienced list in this time. Those players mentioned above? 2265 games of experience. They may not have been guns, but that much experience is invaluable. So naturally we were shit in 2008 and 2009.
2010 the young players began to improve, so McDonald was retired and Bruce left for a better deal with Hawthorn.
We've gone from being a rabble, almost folding, to a team on the improve. We've gone from 14th in 2007 with fading experienced players, to 16th in 2008 and 2009 with mostly very young players, to 12th in 2010 and 9th in 2011. We're improving and I'm happy about that.
Also, Geelong built their side from 99-01,07. Six to eight years.
Collingwood in 2005 drafted players like Pendlebury and Thomas who would be 24-25 when they wanted to win the flag, but it wasn't a full rebuild. They got rid of the older players not good/young enough for their next premiership attempt, such as O'Bree, Lockyer, those sorts of players. Collingwood never truly bottomed out like Melbourne did, IMO.
St Kilda were 16th in 2000, and made their first Grand Final since the spoon in 2009. That's nine years.
To expect top 8, or top 4, is meaningless this year. Let the young players improve, let Bailey coach. We'll hopefully make finals next year and keep improving towards hopefully winning a flag in 2014 or so.
A good stat hadn't noticed that... The other Vic teams have been handy from 08-10 though.
Carlton finalists in 09, 10 and most likely this year
Collingwood Premiers in 2010 - top 4 most other years
Geelong 90 wins from the past 110 games
Hawks Premiers in 08
North have the wood on us and are always honest
Saints past three Grand Finals
Dogs top 4 from 08-10.
Melbourne beat Collingwood in 2007....N.Daniher got the sack that year.
Melbourne always rise to play us on QBday, and the last time they got a win was 2007....what progress has Bailey made??
Can you not read??
Melbourne fans bemoan a lack of senior players....it is their own fault as they forced them all out of the club. Now they have no leadership and kids that simply become uncompetitive when the tide turns out on the ground.
Take Collingwood back in 1998-98, when we were a rabble.....
We got the gun draft picks, but also traded in for some quality experience...guys like Clement, Wakelin, Molloy even guys like Freeborn, Steinfort were acquired to give a physical contests, who could help the young kids...all of sudden the club went from a rabble to a consistent challenger.
Melbourne have opted to be uncompetitive...so now I feel it is rich of the supporters to use a lack of senior players as any excuse, as it was the club and Bailey's list management decision to go solely with kids.
Why didn't the club see fit to keep some of the experience on the list, if it is invaluable??
Who's decision was it to get rid of every senior bloke.....surely Bailey needs to be accountable.
How many other coaches have very little pressure on them as Bailey does?
Fecking Worsfold was almost sacked after winning one spoon, and he delivered the club a premiership!!
Collingwood finished last, but hated it and wanted to win.
Melbourne rolled over and embraced being shite.
To expect finals from a coach after four years is meaningless.......feck me dead, that sums up why Bailey has escaped the axe.
It's not so much bemoaning a lack of senior players it is the lack of leadership that is the problem. There's a subtle difference.
Yze, White, Robbo, Wheatley and several others were average players by the end of their career but also never really possesed any leadership. We didn't have a Buckley or Cousins type player in their prime to really set the on field example for a young group this is the problem most Dees fans are pointing to.
Why wasn't this addressed then?
Again another example of poor list management from Bailey.
Use a pick to bring in a couple of good senior leaders from outside......Collingwood fecking traded for Ball and Jolly who are both in our leadership group.
What actually is Bailey held accountable for??
Melbourne made it pretty clear that they wanted Chris Judd and then later Luke Ball but our position of a rebuild didn't appeal to either of them at the time which isn't really in Bailey's control. I think you're clutching at straws to call this poor list management.
The fact that Melbourne supporters use a lack of leadership as some kind of excuse use Bailey's terrible record is laughable.
He has had control of the list for 4 years, if you lack leaders the buck has to stop with Bailey.
Not if there were none on the list to begin with. Young players recruited by Bailey who could take up the leadership baton such as Grimes and Scully have been injured hampering their development. Green, Moloney and Bruce all had flaws and McDonald and Neitz were pensioners age. This has everything to do with what he inherited and little to do with what he has created.
CowboyFromHell
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We got rid of those senior players BECAUSE THEY WERE RUBBISH. What part of that do you not understand? We didn't keep them around because they sucked and sucked hard (apart from McDonald). We lacked any talent in the 23-27 bracket at the time and had to pour our picks in to young kids we hoped would turn our club around. We didn't waste picks on senior players because we didn't have the cattle and it would have given us 3, maybe 4 wins extra which meant nothing.
Opted to be uncompetitive? We opted to go very young and as a result we ended up being uncompetitive for alot of 2008 and 2009.
You care about something you know little about way too much.
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