Vic How would you rate Daniel Andrews' performance as Victorian Premier?

[Gralin]

I'm not sure what you mean? Regional fares are different to Metropolitan? They both handle Myki for most journeys, if you were unaware of that.

To be nice and clear for out-of-towners trying to pretend they know stuff, here's a map of train lines which is not to scale and completely distorts lines to fit them on the poster (e.g. see what the name is at the end of the line, then whack that into maps to understand how far it goes):

Or for those who want a more geographic depiction of some "growth areas", there's this map of the Regional Rail Link:

I mean that V/Line is not the same as Metro, its a different product and a different price, sure it uses Myki but that doesn't make it a metro train system

People that don't currently live near a metro station out west are complaining that they aren't seeing metro development happening out their way from a trains perspective, they get buses or if lucky a V/Line

Not that hard to understand is it?

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

I mean that V/Line is not the same as Metro, its a different product and a different price, sure it uses Myki but that doesn't make it a metro train system

People that don't currently live near a metro station out west are complaining that they aren't seeing metro development happening out their way from a trains perspective, they get buses or if lucky a V/Line

Not that hard to understand is it?

I put in a ninja edit to explain it further. Those areas in the white of the map are the same fee structure as metropolitan. It's a V/Line train, but no different to the metropolitan service (I'm not saying 'Metro' as that's what Victorians are calling the new north-south underground line).

So they use Myki & cost the same. To me that counts pretty much as "the same", and as to the actual point I was replying to, both maps reveal trains go much:

further west than sunshine

Do you understand now?

EDIT: And before you try again to pretend this is somehow the Govt ignoring the west - let me save time and also point out that the RRL and other new stations have been built there recently. Duplication in Geelong has been announced too. The accusation is plain wrong, as people out west know.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

I haven't seen many crime statistics on trains in Melbourne in recent years but I would be almost certain that it has dropped rather significantly with the introduction of more and more PSO's. I can only imagine that this line would have PSO's littered throughout as well (that is if that job is still there in 28 years!!)

Somehow I doubt it. They don't have much to do and were seemingly put there foremost to be visible. They often wander off nearby when trains aren't in-station.

Given they are not police, I wonder if they have to follow the same protocols? You could maybe have just one, make them more an expert on the train system so they can assist passengers and check tickets (upping revenue), and then free up taxpayer funds for more police who can go where they are needed. We've had so many cuts, 'efficiency dividends' and increases in paperwork that it doesn't feel like the regular Police have the resources they need to do a good job. The one station attendant could then call police and report back to them (or the ticket police heavies, if we're still using them by then), when necessary.

Aaaand it appears that post has been deleted...?

 

[Ice-Wolf]

After this announcement if we're going ambitious why not do Rowille by extending Glen Waverly via tunnel. That way you're not adding more burden to the Dandenong Spur.

Whilst we're at it plan an outer loop connecting Frankston, Dandenong, (Rowville) and Ringwood via the Eastlink Corridor. And extend the f'n tram from South Vermont to Knox City!

 

[laam]

Shouldn't cost that much.

Under construction and nearing completion right now is the Forrestfield airport link in Perth. 8 km of tunnels (including a challenging part under the Swan River) for a total cost of $1.9B. Round that up to 2 bill and it still works out to about 1/4 of your estimate per km.

Costings have come out now at about 50 Billion which isn't too bad and I think worthwhile at that price. Since found Sydney are in the process of doing a few longer tunnels at cheaper rates as well, so not as prohibitive as I thought.

Concerned they will get hammered by the Libs on cost benefit analysis. Seems like this will only stack up when the broader implications of de-centralising the city are considered.

Hopefully they can get that construction time down as its a harder sell if people arent going to see an impact for so long. Also risking multiple governments cancelling it at some point.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

LOL loving the HUN comments section someone is complaining that it doesn't connect to the Sandringham Line FMD.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Hopefully they can get that construction time down as its a harder sell if people arent going to see an impact for so long. Also risking multiple governments cancelling it at some point.

But it would be built in stages, wouldn't it?

 

[laam]

I don't mean to derail the conversation (GET IT?!), but:

The entire sandringham line heading to domain as you say, but also the dandenong/cranbourne/future Roweville lines, which will require two unnecessary interchanges.
But more significantly,
Anyone on the dandenong/cranbourne/future Roweville lines that needs to stop at South Yarra (and vice versa), which is now and will continue to grow into a significant hub, with residential and office highrises sprouting up like weeds.
Basically its ripped Melbourne's busiest train line out of one of Melbourne busiest stations, when it passes right under it.

You can argue its only one interchange, but its unnecessary, and every interchange in a network matters as it makes them less desirable and puts cars on the road. This train station will need to be built, and soon, so its an utter waste of money to try and retroactively fit this station when it is inevitably built in five or ten years time.

In short, its a half arsed job.

Gottit haha

I actually remembered this topic and we discussed this exact issue about 2 years ago in this thread. Haha.
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...ctorian-premier.1117401/page-60#post-47588373
Some good discussion there from Elroo.

Good point that any interchange discourages use, which I hadnt considered and is a reasonable point and I'm usually all for doing it once and doing it right, but the price difference isnt usually so high.

But if this, Melb Metro II and outerloop all start up, people need to get used to it. In major overseas networks changing trains is standard. We need to increase the frequency so there isnt such a time penalty for changing trains. Signalling upgrades, level crossing removals and metro projects all already underway will allow this to happen.

 

[Gralin]

Gottit haha

I actually remembered this topic and we discussed this exact issue about 2 years ago in this thread. Haha.
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...ctorian-premier.1117401/page-60#post-47588373
Some good discussion there from Elroo.

Good point that any interchange discourages use, which I hadnt considered and is a reasonable point and I'm usually all for doing it once and doing it right, but the price difference isnt usually so high.

But if this, Melb Metro II and outerloop all start up, people need to get used to it. In major overseas networks changing trains is standard. We need to increase the frequency so there isnt such a time penalty for changing trains. Signalling upgrades, level crossing removals and metro projects all already underway will allow this to happen.

yep changing trains happens all the time all over the place, I'd rather have to change trains than need to change to a bus

 

[laam]

But it would be built in stages, wouldn't it?

You would think so, just wouldn't want them completing a few sections and then stopping the project. Ie complete the eastern suburbs and then ignore the rest of Melbourne.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

I'm guessing you don't actually live anywhere near the west?

Or maybe not in Victoria at all? Australia?

It's called "V/Line".

It won't even be V/Line when this gets built either. Electrification to Bacchus Marsh is to be completed after the Metro Tunnel is finished.

Wouldn't be surprised if they release another section later on that properly connects the new western suburbs either. The Werribee - Sunshine - Airport link is clearly built to a different philosophy from the eastern section because they haven't bothered to add in new stations at suburbs like Avondale Heights. I'd guess the western section comprises the new airport rail link and a new connection from Sunshine to Geelong via Werribee. High speed, high capacity transport to bring people from Melbourne and Geelong to the airport.

The only real downside is that suburbs like airport West and keilor are probably not going to be services by rail until at least 2050. But the airport rail link would be useless if trains needed to do a milk run.

 

[Pessimistic]

Is the new rail official TforV policy? if not Dan's as irresponsible as Napthine before him

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Is the new rail official TforV policy? if not Dan's as irresponsible as Napthine before him

I doubt TforV thought a government would even greenlight something so ambitious so wouldn't have wasted their time even considering such a massive change or than a cursory "sure we love to do something like this but they'll never go for it". It's essentially a "bugger the cost/time" proposal

 

[nobbyiscool]

I have some minor quibbles with today's announcement:

- I know you can't build major, geologically challenging projects like this overnight. But almost 30 years? That seems a crazy long time. And while politically it can and should be seen as visionary, 30 years probably makes it a bit easy for people to tap into the "believe it when we see it" criticism.

- $50b over that amount of time? You can probably just pluck any number over 30 years, cos you're not going to really know. And you're also not going to know what expensive challenges you face in that time.

- It'll delay (or possibly even kill off) Metro 2, which kind of sucks. I think Metro tunnel is great, but when it's built it's almost going to create 2 classes of public transport users, and I think Metro 2 would've gone at least some way to countering that.


All that said, what an incredibly exciting announcement. The above, as I say, are minor quibbles - they don't go close to overshadowing something that would be an absolute game changer in terms of connectivity, dealing with population issues, environment, and making Melbourne a truly modern, global city.

Politically, it ticks a lot of boxes as well. I said a couple of pages back that the problem with infrastructure is that, no matter how amazing, effective and worthwhile a project is, it leaves entitled w***ers elsewhere screaming "what about me?!" This doesn't - it provides something for people right across Melbourne. I also think that people really love these progressive, visionary ideas - I remember an episode of The Hollowmen where they were figuring out the "whistle test", or the point at which an announcement and an amount of money is so massive that it makes you stop and go *whistle*. It has a basis in fact. Yeah, 30 years is a long time, but I think the majority of people are going to be taken aback by such a massive project.

I don't think I've ever seen a state or federal government make an announcement (infrastructure or otherwise) that had me so excited as to make me think "I want to work on this project!" - but that's what I thought when I read about this and then watched the video today.

 

[Frank Bunn]

I am interested in the cost, given all underground, Melb Metro is about $1 Billion per km, pro rata for this project would put it up towards $90 Billion. Might get a bit of a discount given its not all inner city, but still tunnels don't care if you're in the city or not. You would have to be planning to increase the job density massively around each of the hub stations for this to be worth it.

The vast amount of Melbourne commuters come from the burbs to the CBD. It's unlikely that this pattern will change. Spending $90 Billion on a outer rail loop makes no sense. This sort of idea has been kicking around London, which has a greater population, but has been rejected because the benefit does not match the enormous cost.

Rather than a grandstanding election proposal that would take decades and billions to deliver there are cheaper and quicker alternatives. Like separating the RRL from the Geelong line. Wyndham Vale to the city is already standing room only at peak times, and the Western suburbs are still growing substantially. Geelong passengers have to go the long way round with journey times no better than 20 years ago. Reliability is also poor with regular cancellations and 6 carriages down to 3.

 

[nobbyiscool]

The vast amount of Melbourne commuters come from the burbs to the CBD. It's unlikely that this pattern will change. Spending $90 Billion on a outer rail loop makes no sense. This sort of idea has been kicking around London, which has a greater population, but has been rejected because the benefit does not match the enormous cost.

Rather than a grandstanding election proposal that would take decades and billions to deliver there are cheaper and quicker alternatives. Like separating the RRL from the Geelong line. Wyndham Vale to the city is already standing room only at peak times, and the Western suburbs are still growing substantially. Geelong passengers have to go the long way round with journey times no better than 20 years ago. Reliability is also poor with regular cancellations and 6 carriages down to 3.

Of course it's likely to change if it's made easier for people to travel between suburbs. It's one of the main reasons this is such a great idea - it allows business and government to decentralise operations from the city and allows them to look to the suburbs.

 

[Pessimistic]

Maybe it’s 30 years because of population projections means it makes economic sense by then, and therefore current upgrades to current lines need to take it into account

 

[pugsville]

The vast amount of Melbourne commuters come from the burbs to the CBD. .

While the only mass transit system , trains is almost solely geared to only do that. It's a bit of a self for-filling prophesy. There's more to than that but hat most commuters go to the CBD when the only mass transit should not be surprising.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

The vast amount of Melbourne commuters come from the burbs to the CBD. It's unlikely that this pattern will change. Spending $90 Billion on a outer rail loop makes no sense. This sort of idea has been kicking around London, which has a greater population, but has been rejected because the benefit does not match the enormous cost.

London already has an orbital railway of sorts anyway with the Overground. Even then the national rail network around London is much more vast than what we have:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

 

[pazza]

I would like to see announced:

* Electrification to Armstrong Creek. Forecast to happen by 2050.
* Electrification and Duplication to Bacchus Marsh minimum. The latter is already underway.
* Electrification to Wallan.
* Line extension to Whittlesea and Electrification.

 

[Hoops]

After this announcement if we're going ambitious why not do Rowille by extending Glen Waverly via tunnel. That way you're not adding more burden to the Dandenong Spur.

Whilst we're at it plan an outer loop connecting Frankston, Dandenong, (Rowville) and Ringwood via the Eastlink Corridor. And extend the f'n tram from South Vermont to Knox City!

After Glen Waverley going east it drops significantly down to Dandenong Creek/Jells Park cant see it being feasible for a train. Thats why talk of a Rowville line always looks at an extention along Wellington rd.

 

[nobbyiscool]

* Electrification to Wallan.
* Line extension to Whittlesea and Electrification.

I kept reading about extending to Whittlesea over the last week and a bit with the Mernda opening - and I don't get it. Whittlesea has fewer than 6000 residents, and it's all green wedge between Doreen and Whittlesea. You wouldn't build another station 500 metres north of the new Mernda Station, so there'd be no more stops between Mernda and Whittlesea. Noting that the whole Mernda extension including 3 new stations was "only" 8 kilometres, no government in their right mind is going to spend the money to extend another 8 kilometres to service fewer than 6000 residents - especially when there's a bunch of east-west roads in between that you have to go over or under, or revert back to level crossings, to get there.

Also, the suggestion of electrification is a bit superfluous - it's already electric to Mernda.

And it's a similar argument with Wallan than with Whittlesea isn't it? Who exactly are you servicing? There's **** all people in Wallan, and not much between Wallan and Craigieburn.

I don't completely disagree with Armstrong Creek, but where do you stop? Torquay? Lorne? Those in Armstrong Creek itself are already going to be pretty well serviced by regional rail upgrades to Geelong and eventual upgrades at Sunbury.

 

[Pessimistic]

Bit different from the kennet years when they seriously contemplated shutting the Alamein line

 

[TimmeT]

Bit different from the kennet years when they seriously contemplated shutting the Alamein line

Pretty sure that was first raised seriously in the 1980s under Cain

 

[Pessimistic]

Pretty sure that was first raised seriously in the 1980s under Cain

And the Cain years it seems. Neglect from both sides