Expansion Hypothetical: If a Melb based club relocated to Brisbane back in 1987

[fishmonger]

This is something to consider for all you pro-GC people.

Remember that the Brisbane Bears,a new licence and expansion team, set up on the GC back in the days when there were only a couple hundred thousand residents. They failed, despite the "projected growth" of the area. The Bears eventually picked up after moving to Brisbane.

Now turn the clock back and consider if instead Fitzroy had avoided oblivion and anticipated the VFL's move for a new Brisbane licence. The population of Brisbane was just over a million, twice the current Gold Coast population, with a similar number of Aussie Rules participants, supporters and ex southerners to what the GC has now. But would they have been successful ? I think not.

The Broncos came out shortly afterward and won the heart of the already pro rugby league city. The Bears up against such a force is one thing, a relocated Melbourne club would have been considered even more of a joke.

Yet had the VFL set up teams in most other cities before expanding into Brisbane, they would have had a much better chance. People up there weren't even aware that there was a team from Perth or a leagues in South Australia, NT, ACT and Tasmania. Sure, the AFL has come a long way, but it needs sustainable expansion teams in its heartland before risking another massive failure.

If the Swans couldn't survive without concessions in a city of nearly 5 million, what hope would a relocated Brisbane team have had ?

This is one for you expansionists to consider.

Thoughts ?

 

[Father Jack]

I don't think anyone expects the club to be a financial success straight away. It is more of an investment in the area. The Bears problem in the beginning was its identity crisis, if you are going to base a new team in a city, at least name it after that city. Once they got that right they started to move ahead.

 

[relapse]

It would have taken time and money, but would have worked in the long term.
The AFL has been successful with it's expansion so far. How many people used to think that the eastern states would never follow AFL ??? The AFL to their credit know that by sticking to a market and not running out at the first sign of trouble there are great long term rewards.

The AFL knows it's all about the future, not about the next couple of seasons etc. North's problem is that it will always be scraping to stay afloat as much as I give their supporters credit for fighting for their club etc. There will only be so long that they can keep the wolves at bay.

If anyone actually believes that North can survive and actually thrive in melbourne I would question how they come to that conclusion because that stuff is just blind faith. The honest answer is that remaining in Melbourne will most probably eventually kill the club IMO, there is a reason behind why the move is mooted it isnt just that people have decided for no reason for them to relocate.

The off field potential is far far higher at the Gold Coast than in melbourne, they have a far larger market to work with to attract supporters in the long term and have exclusivity of a market in which to work with.

The AFL would obviously rather spend $40 million over say 15 years establishing the side on the Coast rather than spend $30 million keeping North afloat for 15 years when they will be in exactly the same position they are in now in that time.

The problem is that there are 11 pieces of a 4.5 million market in vic and North makes up the smallest part of one of those pieces.

At the end of the day most people want the club to survive, it wont be another fitzroy because it will actually be the same club. I would much rather be the Swans than the Lions (which really is not Fitzroy, just a rebadged Bears team).

North supporters have to remember what happened to Fitzroy and not just blindly believe that everything will just magically be fine and that remaining in Melbourne is the answer to the clubs problems. At the end of the day if the long term survival in Melbourne doesnt seem possible then at least by relocating you arent losing the club and the history that would be the worst thing.

This is why I am pro Gold Coast, I dont want to see North's flags and history mean nothing. I would rather see them on the Coast than dead.

 

[relapse]

I don't think anyone expects the club to be a financial success straight away. It is more of an investment in the area. The Bears problem in the beginning was its identity crisis, if you are going to base a new team in a city, at least name it after that city. Once they got that right they started to move ahead.

Yep exactly right, the AFL knows that by pumping more money into a club on the Gold Coast will bring far more rewards long term than pumping slightly less money into North Melbourne as a Melbourne based club.

 

[adey115]

I'm an old Royboy...

Its worth noting that at the end of a successful 1986 for the Roys (a loss in the Prelim Final), the players vote to stay together by agreeing to locate to Brisbane. The club decided to fight on to survive outright in Melbourne.

I think it should be noted that:
* the AFL were keen to expand regardless of financial losses in the short term at that time. A team was going to be in Brisbane the next year, regardless of Fitzroy's decision. And the AFL is in a stronger financial position now than then as to propping up a team in a developing market - yet they still went ahead and did it, and its worked for Brisbane in the end.

* although this isn't the purpose of this thread, many old Roy fans do view the Bris Lions as an extention to their Fitzroy allegiances and a continuation of the history. Of course also many do not. My point is - the only people who can make such a decision are the old fans, not Adelaide supporters... I mean no disrepect by that - I simply mean that old Roys are the only ones who can decide if they think its a continuation of the history of the roys or not.

I'm a Bris Lions supporter, who is an old Royboy. My points in relation to this matter are:
a) just like 1987, the AFL wants to expand into the GC market, regardless of potential short term losses (maybe even over a ten-twenty year period say). What the AFL wants, the AFL gets. It has proved that in the past.
b) the AFL itself is financially stronger than ever before. Much stronger than 1987.
c) NM continue to be financially weak and at the mercy of the revenue funds of a smaller supporter base versus the AFL - see points a & b.
d) as an old Roy boy who follows the Bris Lions, I get to see 5 live games in Melbourne next year, which sucks.

If I was a North supporter, I'd be asking myself the question now - if my team was located on the Gold Coast RIGHT NOW, would I barrack for them? You wake up tomorrow and your team is a Gold Coast team - would you barrack for them?

If its a yes, then I'd suggest agreeing to the move now, while you're still in somewhat of a position of power to negotiate the best terms possible for Melbourne based fans. Agreeing to the move now could gain you the following benefits that you may not be able to obtain in the future from the AFL:
a) naming rights - would you prefer your club to be known as the Northern or North Kangaroos, (ie. retaining the 'North' name), or the Gold coast Kangaroos (more likely in the future if the club has no choice but to go)
b) guaranteed number of games in Melbourne - over 22 rounds, there are 11 home and 11 away games... would you prefer 7 'away' games in Melbourne, 1 'home' game in Melbourne, 10 'home' games on the GC, one 'away' game in Brisbane, and 4 interstate away games - or would you like a similar fixturing to the Bris Lions which sees 5 away games in Melbourne (plus one in Geeling) and thats it.
c) a constitution that never changes the clubs colors, name etc again.

My thoughts -the AFL will get what they want. They'll prop up the GC club financially, but they won't prop up a Melb based club. Go now and be known as North. Guarantee as many Melb games as you can....

Or face the decision as to supporting a team called the Gold Coast and seeing them only 5 times a year.

In hindsight, if the Roys had gone to Brisbane in 1987, then I might have been watching them live in Melbourne more than 5 times a year. Thats what crosses my mind year in year out supporting the Brisbane Lions.

Having said that, I'm glad I'm not a North supporter, as it is tough going watching this happen to your club.

 

[Father Jack]

They have to sell the club to the Gold Coast. I reckon they would have no choice but to call them the Gold Coast Kangaroos. It will be a battle to get the locals to accept the club as it is. But the point about the bargaining position is a good one, but I think there are few North supporters who are 'all or nothing' as far as this is concerned, and fair enough too.

 

[adey115]

.....but I think there are few North supporters who are 'all or nothing' as far as this is concerned, and fair enough too.

That's a good point. That's the big decision. If its 'all', then fight all the way against the biggest 'city hall' of them all in this sports mad country, the AFL....

But if you'd be willing to still follow them on the GC, then get what you can now, while you can.

 

[Doctor Jolly]

The GC bears failed for many reasons including:
1) Playing at GC, but called "Brisbane"
2) Very poor starting list.
3) Private ownership - which has been a failure every time.
4) Poor facilities.
5) Zero support outside QLD.
6) No history/tradition.

A North Melbourne relocation to GC with associated upgrade of stadium, and financial backing from the AFL addresses all those points.

 

[Long bombs to snake]

What the AFL wants, the AFL gets. It has proved that in the past.

Not necessarily true.

1. They wanted Fitzroy and Fottscray to merge. Fail!
2. They wanted Melbourne and Hawthorn to merge. Fail!

The AFL has shown in the past that they don't have the nerve when it comes to getting their hands dirty. Hopefully this is no different.

 

[The Chad]

great post adey115

but personally i hope "north" fans of the kangaroos football club continue to be pig-headed and beligerant, roll the dice on all or nothing and have the club fold completely when the AFL decides to bring in a fresh, uninfected franchise on GC

 

[Doctor Jolly]

great post adey115

but personally i hope "north" fans of the kangaroos football club continue to be pig-headed and beligerant, roll the dice on all or nothing and have the club fold completely when the AFL decides to bring in a fresh, uninfected franchise on GC

Which will be sad when a few fans who have been around for less than a 1/5th of the life of the Kangaroos footy club will cause it to fold due to selfish pig headed reasons. Talk about the tail waging the dog.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

Which will be sad when a few fans who have been around for less than a 1/5th of the life of the Kangaroos footy club will cause it to fold due to selfish pig headed reasons. Talk about the tail waging the dog.

Had enough of antagonising us and decided to start patronising us for a change? Save it.

It's sad that you don't have a club of your own to have an interest in, or apparently, any interest in any football issue at all. Your obsession with what our club does is bordering on pathological. Seriously. We have to care. You need to get a life.

 

[Impunity!]

Had enough of antagonising us and decided to start patronising us for a change? Save it.

It's sad that you don't have a club of your own to have an interest in, or apparently, any interest in any football issue at all. Your obsession with what our club does is bordering on pathological. Seriously. We have to care. You need to get a life.

But while the Kangaroos continue accepting handouts from the AFL, it's not just a club issue. It affects all clubs who contribute to the revenues of the AFL.

 

[Roylion]

Now turn the clock back and consider if instead Fitzroy had avoided oblivion and anticipated the VFL's move for a new Brisbane licence. The population of Brisbane was just over a million, twice the current Gold Coast population, with a similar number of Aussie Rules participants, supporters and ex southerners to what the GC has now. But would they have been successful ? I think not.

A relocated Fitzroy would very likely have been more successful than the Brisbane Bears.

Why?

* they would have been a member based club and not privately owned

* they would have had a substantial Melbourne based supporter base and membership

* they would have existing history and tradition to build upon

* they would have been located in Brisbane and not the Gold Coast from the start, as per the AFL's wishes.

* they would have been more successful on the field initially, because most of Fitzroy's senior list of 1986 was prepared to re-locate. Fitzroy reached a preliminary final in 1986. Brisbane's 1987 team could have included Fitzroy players such as Doug Barwick, Matthew Armstrong, John Blakey, Scott Clayton, Mick Conlan, Michael Gale, Bernie Harris, Leon Harris, Graeme Hinchen, Darren Kappler, Grant Lawrie, Bill Lokan, Ross Lyon, Scott McIvor, Richard Osborne, Tim Pekin, Gary Pert, Matt Rendell, Paul Roos, Brett Stephens, Ross Thornton, and Jimmy Wynd. Maybe even Bernie Quinlan who retired at the end of 1986. Perhaps with the VFL's assistance, the Lions could have also paid for players who ended up at the Bears in 1987 anways including Geoff Raines, Brad Hardie, Stephen Reynoldson, Mark Mickan and Mark Williams.

 

[Ry009]

But while the Kangaroos continue accepting handouts from the AFL, it's not just a club issue. It affects all clubs who contribute to the revenues of the AFL.

You obviously have jack shizen idea on the history of your club Reep.


Oh Im sorr.....this is all you hear isnt it? "OMFG lolz youse lost Judd!!1 drug culture!!!1'


Get off your fcuking high horse for a change.

 

[Impunity!]

You obviously have jack shizen idea on the history of your club Reep.


Oh Im sorr.....this is all you hear isnt it? "OMFG lolz youse lost Judd!!1 drug culture!!!1'


Get off your fcuking high horse for a change.

Look I realise it's an emotive issue and I sympathise to an extent.

West Coast was given support by the AFL for a period and this helped them stabilise and become an economic and footballing powerhouse.

The question is whether the Roos can turn it around and still stay in Melbourne.

If they can then fantastic. But it is looking increasingly likely that the only scenario whereby the AFL will continue bailing out your club is if you relocate to the Gold Coast.

It's a "you scratch my back (relocate) and I'll scratch yours (offer financial support)" situation.

 

[Ry009]

the only scenario whereby the AFL will continue bailing out your club is if you relocate to the Gold Coast.

It's a "you scratch my back (relocate) and I'll scratch yours (offer financial support)" situation.

Bloody Websters better get there act together and include the following comment of 'except for the growth of sport in failed markets'

But hey anything to get the press of your mob hey Reepy? Lord knows how much you hate people having a dig at your club.

 

[Impunity!]

Bloody Websters better get there act together and include the following comment of 'except for the growth of sport in failed markets'

But hey anything to get the press of your mob hey Reepy? Lord knows how much you hate people having a dig at your club.

Yes. The Kangaroos' failure to become economically sustainable was a grand plan put in place by Trevor Nisbett to direct media attention away from the woes of the West Coast Eagles.

 

[jacko57]

Bloody Websters better get there act together and include the following comment of 'except for the growth of sport in failed markets'

But hey anything to get the press of your mob hey Reepy? Lord knows how much you hate people having a dig at your club.

Now I understand SOR's reluctance to name his club.

 

[Ry009]

Yes. The Kangaroos' failure to become economically sustainable was a grand plan put in place by Trevor Nisbett to direct media attention away from the woes of the West Coast Eagles.

2008 AFL Balance Sheet Trophy, sterling idea isn't?

 

[Impunity!]

Now I understand SOR's reluctance to name his club.

2008 AFL Balance Sheet Trophy, sterling idea isn't?

Deflect away boys, but you should really be using your energy to try and save the club you hold so dear. Every post on BigFooty is a tin unrattled.

 

[Ry009]

Reep, football clubs exist to post profits and not win premierships, correct?

 

[Hit And Rum]

Reep, football clubs exist to post profits and not win premierships, correct?

Football clubs, at AFL level in a professional competition, exist because of profits which allow them to operate and subsequently allows them to achieve their aim of winning premierships.

 

[Impunity!]

Reep, football clubs exist to post profits and not win premierships, correct?

Football clubs, at AFL level in a professional competition, exist because of profits which allow them to operate and subsequently allows them to achieve their aim of winning premierships.

What he said.

Do you think the Kangaroos should have a free ride? Because of their "long history" and "connection to Melbourne"?

 

[Ry009]

What he said.

Do you think the Kangaroos should have a free ride? Because of their "long history" and "connection to Melbourne"?

So do you believe the AFL should never have given Carlton an interest free loan, and that they subsequently should have been forced to relocate or die because - in your repeated words, their administration's 'failure to become economically sustainable ' ?


Do you also believe that the same pressure should be applied to the Western Bulldogs, Melbourne and Brisbane, and that when St Kilda were in dire straits in the nineties they shouldn't have had the opportunity to get themselves right?