Jacobs & Walker Trade Discussion - Part 2

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Re: Jacobs & Walker Trade Discussion

KnaveyBlue said:
The Age has reported that the Crows have offered Pick 14 for Jacobs + Pick 18.

Offers that stupid and insulting are how negotiations end up dead in the water before any real trade talk can begin.
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Almost as stupid as demanding #14 and a player?

I'd suggest that's just a claim thrown up by the Crows to show Carlton how stupid they're being, and that if they want to be ********s about it, then we'll do the same.

I'd offer them our second round pick, and throw the Bock pick in if we get Walker as well.
 
Re: Jacobs & Walker Trade Discussion

TheLeftFist8 said:
That is still overpaying.

The Compo pick on its own is only just acceptable for Jacobs, let alone swapping first rounders! Anyone would think we are in a position of weakness in this trade. This is not a top tier ruckman we are going for!
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I'm just saying thats what i think will be settled on, not what I think is fair.

I would think that the Bock pick is fair, but sometimes it's the smaller things like a swap of first rounders that gets the trade over the line.
 
Re: Jacobs & Walker Trade Discussion

Stiffy_18 said:
A lot of other things to consider here than just simply giving away picks. If we bring in 3 players for picks only, there would need to be some more players from the senior list that would need to be cut or traded away for picks.
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We will almost certainly upgrade at least one more rookie (ie Jaensch or Schmidt) imo. My recollection which could be wrong is that 'rookie upgrade for draft pick' could only count once, so we still need 2 picks in draft.

Counting Griffin as a goner for a pick in the 50th round of the draft, that gives us 8 departures, effectively meaning 7 spare spots once vets are accounted for. Hendo plus at least one other rookie upgrade (preferably Jaensch, leaving Schmidt into the draft pool if anyone wants him before us) brings us down to 5 spots.

If twists of fate meant we only gave up picks for 3 players, we'd still be left with the 2 draft picks required...both of which would be quite poor picks.

If the recruiters manage to snare the players but involve sending off one of ours or using pick swaps to at least stay involved somehow once in the first 2 rounds then they have done ok. If they get all 3 players, and keep pick 14/18 and a 3rd rounder (for Puopolo!), without giving away a future champion (because none of the guys we are trading for are champions either), then I'll be content.
 

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Re: Jacobs & Walker Trade Discussion

What chance is there of another crow player being involved. Just thinking of spots on the list. Myke Cook? Is a vic, can't get into the team, lots more younger players have passed him...
Is ridiculous at this stage guessing what the trade could be...
 
Re: Jacobs & Walker Trade Discussion

davis_756 said:
FYI he cannot refuse WC if he enters the PSD, he can only nominate his salary beforehand. The only players they have worth more then 200k a year are cox, kerr so they could pay him 800k to play in the wafl for a year and it wouldn't hurt them.
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Are you seriously suggesting that West Coast would select a player in the PSD and pay them $500-600k, just for an extra 2nd round pick in the following draft? That's one of the dumbest ideas I have heard in many years.
 
Re: Jacobs & Walker Trade Discussion

Vader, their entire 'PSD is no threat' spiel is stupid; the AFLPA wont allow Jacobs to be taken anywhere but here, and no Club would take him if he stated he'd only live in Adelaide anyway.

If Carlton are being completely unreasonable (and I hope they aren't, we're just hearing the ambit claims thrown up as part of the back and forth of negotiating), the PSD is a real option for us.
 
Re: Jacobs & Walker Trade Discussion

Danoz said:
What chance is there of another crow player being involved. Just thinking of spots on the list. Myke Cook? Is a vic, can't get into the team, lots more younger players have passed him...
Is ridiculous at this stage guessing what the trade could be...
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Myke Cook...what a frustrating player. If he could kick, we'd start to think he could develop into a slightly lesser version of Dale Thomas. However, his kicking is ordinary and in this game called football, precision kicking is of utmost importance. If anyone can improve this flaw to an acceptable level he will be a very good AFL player.

James Sellar...still young, good athlete, good skills, competitive, i believe can be a very good KPD while also flexible enough for ruck and forward, rule changes may help currency.

Will Young...the height and athleticism that can match a KPP or a medium flanker (ala O'Brien), thus has flexibility as well. As with Sellar, i am very confident he can be a very good AFL player and I'd be keen to keep both. If Carlton are cool on Sellar, they should go after Young as a deal sweetener. Will fill a niche for them very nicely.
 
If that AGE article by Gleeson & Quayle is accurate, then it changes the story vastly from what we've previously been led to believe.

Previously we were told the following:
  • Last night we were told that Carlton were asking for pick 14 + a player. Jacobs isn't worth pick 14 alone, let alone with a player thrown in as a sweetener.
  • Carlton's recruiters and fans have always claimed that they would be getting pick 14. This delusion has now been well and truly busted.
Now we're told that:
  • Carlton have (rightly) refused a trade of Jacobs + 18 for pick 14. Can't say I blame them there - Jacobs is worth more than a 4 pick upgrade in the 1st round.
  • Carlton then requested the Bock compensation pick (which I have always maintained was a fair price), which Adelaide then refused.
Adelaide's refusal to do a straight swap for the Bock compensation pick is very telling. If they lose that pick, then they probably won't be able to get the Walker and/or Tambling deals done.

It tells me that Adelaide are looking at a bigger picture - they definitely want to get Jacobs and ONE of Tambling/Walker. The best way of doing this, particularly if Walker is the midfielder we land, is to do one combined trade.

I suspect that the Jacobs deal won't get sorted until we work out which of Tambling/Walker we get (I can't see us getting both and I don't want us to get both) - and what that bigger picture will be.
 
Vader said:
If that AGE article by Gleeson & Quayle is accurate, then it changes the story vastly from what we've previously been led to believe.

Previously we were told the following:
  • Last night we were told that Carlton were asking for pick 14 + a player. Jacobs isn't worth pick 14 alone, let alone with a player thrown in as a sweetener.
  • Carlton's recruiters and fans have always claimed that they would be getting pick 14. This delusion has now been well and truly busted.
Now we're told that:
  • Carlton have (rightly) refused a trade of Jacobs + 18 for pick 14. Can't say I blame them there - Jacobs is worth more than a 4 pick upgrade in the 1st round.
  • Carlton then requested the Bock compensation pick (which I have always maintained was a fair price), which Adelaide then refused.
Adelaide's refusal to do a straight swap for the Bock compensation pick is very telling. If they lose that pick, then they probably won't be able to get the Walker and/or Tambling deals done.

It tells me that Adelaide are looking at a bigger picture - they definitely want to get Jacobs and ONE of Tambling/Walker. The best way of doing this, particularly if Walker is the midfielder we land, is to do one combined trade.

I suspect that the Jacobs deal won't get sorted until we work out which of Tambling/Walker we get (I can't see us getting both and I don't want us to get both) - and what that bigger picture will be.
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Mate. I doubt we will go for walker because he said himself that he is content on staying at Carlton if a deal cannot be reached (Plus the doggies look the most likely anyway). It seems more and more likely that Bling will make he way down to West Lakes.
 
Vader said:
I suspect that the Jacobs deal won't get sorted until we work out which of Tambling/Walker we get (I can't see us getting both and I don't want us to get both) - and what that bigger picture will be.
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In reality, all three of them are valued at around a 2nd rounder this year if you read the collective wisdom of supporters (with more weight given to neutrals).

If we cannot get 2 of the 3 with our Compo and 2nd rounder, then someone is getting greedy. Understandably, with those under contract, the clubs will be hence the compo pick.

Could possibly even need a player or pick swap sweetener if we really want to bend over to get these guys.
 
Paperwings2316 said:
Mate. I doubt we will go for walker because he said himself that he is content on staying at Carlton if a deal cannot be reached (Plus the doggies look the most likely anyway). It seems more and more likely that Bling will make he way down to West Lakes.
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Doggies looking far less likely after yesterday. They have confirmed they will us their first and second rounder for Wallis and Libba Jr via F/S. Everrit for Veszpremi from Syndey looks to be virtually a done deal and they are going hard for Sherman with their Harbrow compo pick. Not only have they fullfilled their need for pacey mids but if all these deals go through they have nothing left to deal. I highly doubt Carlton would go for Josh Hill or Tiller in any sort of trade for Walker and Hill/Tiller apeears to be the only other publically discussed tradeable players from the Dogs. Unless the Dogs offer up a player completely out of the blue I think they may have done their dash for Walker.
 

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Not sure if this was mentioned yet, but I'm not at all surprised to see Phil Harper call bullshit on the $1 million over 3 years deal for Jacobs. We can pretty much put to rest the claims that we'd promised him the first ruck position too. Hopefully Carlton posters will stop pretending this is a bargaining tool (as if it would have been anyway).

Also funny to see certain Carlton supporters who previously insisted pick 14 would be needed now saying the compo pick would be fair haha :eek:
 
Paperwings2316 said:
Mate. I doubt we will go for walker because he said himself that he is content on staying at Carlton if a deal cannot be reached (Plus the doggies look the most likely anyway). It seems more and more likely that Bling will make he way down to West Lakes.
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The doggies are looking less & less likely, because they're fast running out of ammunition. They've already used their 1st and 2nd selections on their F/S kids. The Harbrow compensation pick is on its way to Brisbane in exchange for Justin Sherman. Everitt is on his way to Sydney in exchange for Veszpremi. The only other Footscray player who has been reported as wanting a trade is Tiller and he's worth next to nothing. Put simply, they have nothing with which to trade for Walker.

I'd be quite happy with Bling and Jacobs as an outcome, I'd be equally happy with Walker and Jacobs. I would not be happy with Bling, Jacobs AND Walker, unless we managed to somehow retain a top-20 draft pick.
TheLeftFist8 said:
In reality, all three of them are valued at around a 2nd rounder this year if you read the collective wisdom of supporters (with more weight given to neutrals).

If we cannot get 2 of the 3 with our Compo and 2nd rounder, then someone is getting greedy. Understandably, with those under contract, the clubs will be hence the compo pick.

Could possibly even need a player or pick swap sweetener if we really want to bend over to get these guys.
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I agree that we should be able to get 2 of them for the Bock pick & 2nd rounder. The problem is that both Carlton & Richmond want the Bock pick and won't be happy getting stuck with the 2nd pick. This is where negotiations are going to get a little bit delicate.
 
Vader said:
The doggies are looking less & less likely, because they're fast running out of ammunition. They've already used their 1st and 2nd selections on their F/S kids. The Harbrow compensation pick is on its way to Brisbane in exchange for Justin Sherman. Everitt is on his way to Sydney in exchange for Veszpremi. The only other Footscray player who has been reported as wanting a trade is Tiller and he's worth next to nothing. Put simply, they have nothing with which to trade for Walker.

I'd be quite happy with Bling and Jacobs as an outcome, I'd be equally happy with Walker and Jacobs. I would not be happy with Bling, Jacobs AND Walker, unless we managed to somehow retain a top-20 draft pick.

I agree that we should be able to get 2 of them for the Bock pick & 2nd rounder. The problem is that both Carlton & Richmond want the Bock pick and won't be happy getting stuck with the 2nd pick. This is where negotiations are going to get a little bit delicate.
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Just out of interest Vader, why would you not be happy with all 3?!

I would have thought it would be a big get for us if we could land all 3. Simply because we pretty much address every need with one hit and are significantly better next year and going into the future.

We have some major young talent on our list and lack the experience. Adding a couple of 24 year old, 100 game players with genuine pace, that also happen to address a need is a good thing. Plant Tambling at HBF, Walker on one wing and Mackay on another and we will have a massive improvement on our run and carry ability and have some genuine pace in the side.

Considering that all the big name targets are no longer available, if we end up with Jacobs, Walker and Tambling we would have done really well out of the trade week. Jacobs needs to improve his fitness and lead the ruck, add quick Walker to our midfield mix and Tambling to HBF and we are a LOT better than at the start of the trade week.
 
Vader said:
I'd be quite happy with Bling and Jacobs as an outcome, I'd be equally happy with Walker and Jacobs. I would not be happy with Bling, Jacobs AND Walker, unless we managed to somehow retain a top-20 draft pick.
I agree that we should be able to get 2 of them for the Bock pick & 2nd rounder. The problem is that both Carlton & Richmond want the Bock pick and won't be happy getting stuck with the 2nd pick. This is where negotiations are going to get a little bit delicate.
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That's basically how i feel, still want one decent pick for another young mid of decent quality.

Delicate seems an understatement for these negotiations but is hardly a word i associate with Rendell! Be interesting to see what he comes up with.

Basically, if Carlton get anything more than a 2nd rounder for Jacobs they have done very well given the situation.

The Compo pick then goes to Tambling or Walker...both a slight overpayment on our behalf but they are under contract so that's what you need to do.

To get all three and keep top 20 pick, we would need to get Tambling for 2nd rounder (possible but unlikely), then use Compo pick + 14/18 swap + Young/Sellar/Cook + maybe even a 3rd round swap to get Walker and Jacobs...highly unlikely.

Obviously the key is to only give a 2nd rounder for the first piece of the puzzle!
 
I doubt this deal will get finalized now until next week at the 2pm deadline.

Trade week is shit - cut it in half and make clubs negotiate. Trade week will become better once free agency comes in and club won't be able to hold a player ransom.
 
Stiffy_18 said:
Just out of interest Vader, why would you not be happy with all 3?!

I would have thought it would be a big get for us if we could land all 3. Simply because we pretty much address every need with one hit and are significantly better next year and going into the future.

We have some major young talent on our list and lack the experience. Adding a couple of 24 year old, 100 game players with genuine pace, that also happen to address a need is a good thing. Plant Tambling at HBF, Walker on one wing and Mackay on another and we will have a massive improvement on our run and carry ability and have some genuine pace in the side.

Considering that all the big name targets are no longer available, if we end up with Jacobs, Walker and Tambling we would have done really well out of the trade week. Jacobs needs to improve his fitness and lead the ruck, add quick Walker to our midfield mix and Tambling to HBF and we are a LOT better than at the start of the trade week.
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I tend to agree. The question is will the addition of Jacobs, Walker and Tambling to our side take us from a young side who will be aiming for finals, to a genuine top 4 premiership contender.

You only have to look at Collingwood last year who effectively finished where we did (give or take a holding free kick). They took themselves out of the first round of the draft last year and used calculated effective trading/recruiting for clear needs as a means of improving their side. They put faith in their young talent over more senior players with less genuine talent (Lockyer, Medhurst, O'Bree for example) and 12 months later they have a flag and a young talented side who will be a dominant force for the next few years.
 
Why don't I want all 3?

Firstly, I don't want us to lose all 3 of our picks inside the first round. This would leave us with NO picks inside the top 50, unless we somehow manage to jag one by trading one of our expendable youngsters (Sellar, Armstrong, Cook, Petrenko, Young (maybe), McKernan (maybe)). Even allowing for all the GC concessions this is still a reasonably good draft and I don't want to see us trading out of it completely.

Secondly, Tambling & Walker both come with a reasonable level of risk. Tambling has fairly major injury problems and hasn't really every put it together, other than for a brief period in 2009. Walker has historically had major problems with his shoulders (allegedly fixed now) and his kicking is suspect to say the least. I'm happy to roll the dice on one player, I would not be happy rolling the dice on both.

Thirdly, acquiring 3 players without any departures would leave our list managers with some severe headaches in terms of balancing the number of draftees vs the number of rookie upgrades. Right now we have 5 senior list vacancies, 6 if Griffin finds a new home. If we trade for 3 players then that becomes just 2 or 3. We have Jaensch, Schmidt and Thompson looking for an upgrade and a minimum requirement of 2 draftees in the ND (noting that Henderson's upgrade counts as the 3rd). Balancing that lot represents a major challenge.
 
Re: Jacobs & Walker Trade Discussion

TheLeftFist8 said:
Will Young...the height and athleticism that can match a KPP or a medium flanker (ala O'Brien), thus has flexibility as well. As with Sellar, i am very confident he can be a very good AFL player and I'd be keen to keep both. If Carlton are cool on Sellar, they should go after Young as a deal sweetener. Will fill a niche for them very nicely.
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Sellar would be a sweetener, Young would be a straight swap for mine.
 
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