List Mgmt. List Management 2022

[Michael Jezz]

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it one more time. The role Plow plays is not about possessions and metres gained. It’s not how, in my opinion, that role should be measured. We’ve got sufficient 20+ and big metres gained players already in the backs.

If you think Carlton is winning a premiership with a vanilla player, who get's pushed out of the marking contest by anyone over 180cm and 80kg and delivers no transition drive out of defence-you are kidding

 

[bigblueboy]

I think you'll find Jimmae actually agrees with you.

I think his argument is that if Plow was that type it would hide his skill errors much more than his actual role allows.

If a player is getting it 20 times a game and has a few skill errors that lead to goals while not really locking down an oppo forward (leaks goals that aren't necessarily failing an eye test) it doesn't look as bad as someone who gets maybe 8 to 12 possessions and allows a couple of goals on those possessions (similar rate or a little higher) but doesn't leak the additional goals in a more shut down type role.

I don't agree with his take on Nic Newman (I think Nick's a better footballer than what Jimmae does) but he has a point.

No he doesn’t.
Newman is a very good footballer and a better leader on field than most of our list - certainly how the coaches see it.

 

[SOS Rules]

Indeed, or at least potentially play that role.

Though Fisher way ahead at the moment and can’t see it changing anytime soon.

Carroll, Kemp and to an even greater extent Philp and Fogarty will have a very hard time getting a game in 2023.

Kemp is more of an idea than a reality at the moment, he hasn’t done much wrong, but he hasn’t really done much of anything yet.

The good thing about Kemp though is when he has been given a go he hasn't disgraced himself. He was especially important to our structure in the away game against GWS. After a slow start played a solid game against Fremantle at Marvel.

The kid had big wraps on him as a junior. He needs an extended opportunity to show us what he has got but we also need to work out what his best position is. I hope he can put pressure on some of the incumbents in the first 22 next year. It would put us in a good place from a selection perspective and create more pressure for people to keep performing at their best week to week.

 

[BartSimpson]

If you think Carlton is winning a premiership with a vanilla player, who get's pushed out of the marking contest by anyone over 180cm and 80kg and delivers no transition drive out of defence-you are kidding

I didn’t realise every premiership team had to have 7 transition/drive defenders. And yep, he gets beat 1:1 at times, like every defender does. Not as often as you’d like to think though - he just gets the whipping boy tax added when it happens.
Many “worse” players than Plow are premiership players.

 

[Doro]

The good thing about Kemp though is when he has been given a go he hasn't disgraced himself. He was especially important to our structure in the away game against GWS. After a slow start played a solid game against Fremantle at Marvel.

The kid had big wraps on him as a junior. He needs an extended opportunity to show us what he has got but we also need to work out what his best position is. I hope he can put pressure on some of the incumbents in the first 22 next year. It would put us in a good place from a selection perspective and create more pressure for people to keep performing at their best week to week.

Kemp was stiff to get dropped to sub after that GWS game. It can mess with young players confidence if they're getting dropped after doing well. Hoping he's one who takes the next step in 2023.

 

[thylacine60]

I didn’t realise every premiership team had to have 7 transition/drive defenders. And yep, he gets beat 1:1 at times, like every defender does. Not as often as you’d like to think though - he just gets the whipping boy tax added when it happens.
Many “worse” players than Plow are premiership players.

mario bortolotto pushes his plate away, burps and falls asleep in his chair...........

 

[Magruder]

Magruder

yeah, let’s not go there again.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

Kemp was stiff to get dropped to sub after that GWS game. It can mess with young players confidence if they're getting dropped after doing well. Hoping he's one who takes the next step in 2023.

Yep. Kemp will soar if given a decent block of games, but JSOS, Martin or Marchy are the one's who'll have to make room for him. Weiters was pretty ordinary in his end of season block of games, but SDurden didn't get a look. Dow never got a realistic chance despite good form and big injury gaps and sore players in the midfield.
I'd like to see the team picked more on form next season and be a bit less settled , regardless of reputations.

 

[thylacine60]

oh man, if kemp comes on........

 

[BigFrizz36]

mario bortolotto pushes his plate away, burps and falls asleep in his chair...........

Sadly not any more unfortunately. Excellent example apart from the not being alive anymore thing though.

 

[thylacine60]

Sadly not any more unfortunately. Excellent example apart from the not being alive anymore thing though.

had no idea.......

 

[Arr0w]

Yep. Kemp will soar if given a decent block of games, but JSOS, Martin or Marchy are the one's who'll have to make room for him. Weiters was pretty ordinary in his end of season block of games, but SDurden didn't get a look. Dow never got a realistic chance despite good form and big injury gaps and sore players in the midfield.
I'd like to see the team picked more on form next season and be a bit less settled , regardless of reputations.

I think this is exactly what Voss did, despite having to call up players due to injury.

Voss also didn't try to squeeze players in, generally if we lost a wingman, another got called up

We are well past the rebuild stage, so guys like Dow need to be able to do more than just win a clearance, if he is fighting for a spot with say a Carroll that has more versatility

 

[BigFrizz36]

If you think Carlton is winning a premiership with a vanilla player, who get's pushed out of the marking contest by anyone over 180cm and 80kg and delivers no transition drive out of defence-you are kidding

Here's a few names for you.

Matt Spangher, Aaron Shattock, Greg Madigan, Daryl Freame, Mitch Morton, all were probably whipping boys at one stage and all are premiership players.

This whole we can't win a premiership if such and such are playing is ridiculous. Geelong could have played one short in this year's granny and still won.

Are you genuinely arguing that if we had a day out in a grand final and Cripps, Cerra and Walsh all had 40+, Charlie kicked 9 Harry 8 Jack 6 etc we would still lose if plow was playing?

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

I think this is exactly what Voss did, despite having to call up players due to injury.

Voss also didn't try to squeeze players in, generally if we lost a wingman, another got called up

We are well past the rebuild stage, so guys like Dow need to be able to do more than just win a clearance, if he is fighting for a spot with say a Carroll that has more versatility

I'm happy to give Carroll more chances also, but he didn't have any late season form to deserve it.
I still think Voss was too conservative with selection and our fully sussed out gameplan at the end. Which along with midfield injuries resulted in 4 consecutive disappointing losses and a lost opportunity for our team to experience at least 1 confidence boosting finals appearance.

 

[BigFrizz36]

had no idea.......

Sadly. Fairly recently.

 

[Jimmae]

I don't agree with his take on Nic Newman (I think Nick's a better footballer than what Jimmae does) but he has a point.

No he doesn’t.
Newman is a very good footballer and a better leader on field than most of our list - certainly how the coaches see it.

My key issue with Newman is his athleticism. I rate his footy brain, but I don't rate tired long kicks when the crunch moments arrive, I don't rate goals conceded early in quarters/games because our defensive coverage gets blown by his inability to consistently double back after the turnover.

I find the idea of him playing stints on the wing even more laughable for the same reason. I'd like him to have a think about being a playing coach in the VFL this year, because I think that's where he's a decent chance to spend a lot of time.

 

[Arr0w]

I'm happy to give Carroll more chances also, but he didn't have any late season form to deserve it.
I still think Voss was too conservative with selection and our fully sussed out gameplan at the end. Which along with midfield injuries resulted in 4 consecutive disappointing losses and a lost opportunity for our team to experience at least 1 confidence boosting finals appearance.

Don't think any of those losses occurred due to say the likes of Dow not playing. Even when Kemp was used in the backline, he was beaten fairly easily and struggled to peel off his opponent to create a +1

As for the gameplan, no surprise it was just a basic version where we could be more competitive, a version that had every area stripped back to a basic setup.

The gameplan did have some tweaks as the season went on, but I suspect those tweaks will turn into defining layers.

The biggest change, would likely be around how we score from turnovers and how we restrict the opposition when we turn the ball over

 

[Arr0w]

My key issue with Newman is his athleticism. I rate his footy brain, but I don't rate tired long kicks when the crunch moments arrive, I don't rate goals conceded early in quarters/games because our defensive coverage gets blown by his inability to consistently double back after the turnover.

I find the idea of him playing stints on the wing even more laughable for the same reason. I'd like him to have a think about being a playing coach in the VFL this year, because I think that's where he's a decent chance to spend a lot of time.

Same as last year Jim, if Newman is fit, Voss will pick him each week

As for most of your analysis on Newman, it's still fraudulent

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

Don't think any of those losses occurred due to say the likes of Dow not playing. Even when Kemp was used in the backline, he was beaten fairly easily and struggled to peel off his opponent to create a +1

As for the gameplan, no surprise it was just a basic version where we could be more competitive, a version that had every area stripped back to a basic setup.

The gameplan did have some tweaks as the season went on, but I suspect those tweaks will turn into defining layers.

The biggest change, would likely be around how we score from turnovers and how we restrict the opposition when we turn the ball over

My memory of Kemp's games as 3rd KPD was how unsure and lost he looked in the first quarters (nervousness?) but his rapid improvement as he settled in. I think there is more opportunity for him as a hybrid forward/swingman in our side.
Might be worth giving him a go when our 4 regularly selected smalls are in effective?

Maybe too many forward smalls, that don't take marks, and poor forward delivery are part of gameplan improvements?

 

[The Bighouse]

Indeed, or at least potentially play that role.

Though Fisher way ahead at the moment and can’t see it changing anytime soon.

Carroll, Kemp and to an even greater extent Philp and Fogarty will have a very hard time getting a game in 2023.

Kemp is more of an idea than a reality at the moment, he hasn’t done much wrong, but he hasn’t really done much of anything yet.

May not be sleeping on Philpy just yet. Was a coach fav by reports last pre-season, and then fell over again with injury.
Has some work to do but opportunity could be given if fit, and no more Mr Fumbles.

 

[JuddgementDay]

Same as last year Jim, if Newman is fit, Voss will pick him each week

As for most of your analysis on Newman, it's still fraudulent

I think we are coming to a stage where we can just accept that the likes of Newman and Plow are just backups - our list is strong enough for them to be fighting for a spot with the younger players

 

[teddy-hopkins]

I like Newman's temperament. He keeps his cool and bites off difficult passes that hit more often than not. Defenders who bomb it 50m down the line 100% of the time are almost a liability these days where so much attack comes from defence.

As for plow... he tries hard but just not much actual talent. Best attribute is at least he can stay on the park. Unlike half our team. If Gov and Marchbank could stay fit he doesn't play and that would be an indicator of the strength down back.

Kemps hope is probably to be the next best defender ahead of Newman or Plow or maybe hope doc gets moved to midfield full time. I am optimistic. Certainly got the athletic ability to play AFL but needs to settle mentally. A run of 3 or 4 games in the 1s would do him good.

 

[skadoosh]

Arrow and Jimmae. Lay your bets down. How many games will Newman play next year?

 

[Shinboner1]

 

[Arr0w]

I think we are coming to a stage where we can just accept that the likes of Newman and Plow are just backups - our list is strong enough for them to be fighting for a spot with the younger players

Start of this year, I didn't have Plow as starting 22, but Newman was a lock for me

I still see Newman as part of our 7 defenders, as he is actually still our best organiser.

Injured early ish in the Crows game, lost that and subsequent games

Coaches rate him highly, can't see that changing next year

Boyd Weitering Gov
Williams Young Saad

Newman

Doc likely to play further up the ground