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AFLW 2024 - Round 6 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Lockett or Dunstall?
- Thread starter Lee Bowyer
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- Oct 25, 2001
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GOALden Hawk said:
Top post. Lockett was the better full forward. Dunstall was a better all-round player (ie tackled and chased more) and possibly a better team man (although that may be due to the Saints awful culture in the 80's), but Plugger is peerless in the square.
GOALden Hawk said:
The 80's was an awesome era for atacking fiooty. The Carlton mosquito fleet, Essendon's fearsome 84/85 thugs, the kamikaze Cats of 89. We had Lockett, Dunstall, Ablett at FF, Kernahan, Brereton and Loewe (and the young Carey), and freaks like Daicos and the Krakouers. Not a bad decade...
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This is a stupid poll
Lockett, the greatest goalkicker ever.
Lockett, the greatest goalkicker ever.
sorry mate Hawk 2004 doesn't take you seriously.docker_azza said:
Plugger for me
Dunstall was a great full-foward in his own right but lockett is just simply the greatest full forward ever!
Lockett.
Some people seem to think the only job of a full forward is to kick goals, and because Lockett kicked more he is the better player. They are wrong.
I remember Leigh Matthews remarking that there is a break-even point for having such a focus on your full forward - you need them to kick a certain amount of goals per game. He said Lockett's break-even point was about 5 goals per game. Dunstall's was about 3 per game, because he put in much better defensive efforts, and set up more goals for others. By Leigh's analysis, Dunstall was clearly the better player.
I remember Leigh Matthews remarking that there is a break-even point for having such a focus on your full forward - you need them to kick a certain amount of goals per game. He said Lockett's break-even point was about 5 goals per game. Dunstall's was about 3 per game, because he put in much better defensive efforts, and set up more goals for others. By Leigh's analysis, Dunstall was clearly the better player.
The Fireman said:It's funny how the only people choosing Dunstall are Hawk supporters, everyone else is choosing Lockett, how strange
Why funny? Many Hawthorn supporters (me being one) witnessed first hand how Dunstall became if not the our most important player on the way to winning four Premierships vs watching Lockett perhaps twice a year (and 8 game aside not really hurt us) or on replays as a great but wayward talent.
So why wouldn't we on that basis select what we actually saw over intagibles of 'may have beens' if Locktett had indeed played for Hawthorn?
As said before, I'd select Dunstall on what he gave (and not just in pure goal returns which is near enough negligble in difference anyway) to the team. You're happy with Lockett, fine. I'm happy with Dunstall and on evidence I've every right to be.
Dunstall for me, it is no doubt my Hawthorn bias talking and the fact that I never really liked Lockett.
Dunstall's defensive work and unselfish 'gives' mean his worth as a Full Forward is beyond measure. Both could turn a game, but Dunstall could 'work' the game better.
Dunstall's defensive work and unselfish 'gives' mean his worth as a Full Forward is beyond measure. Both could turn a game, but Dunstall could 'work' the game better.
why funny? because this thread is all about who was the better not who we saw the most of but who would have kicked the most on the day, Lockett is better than Dunstall at doing that, it's not only the stats that show it but just have a look at some video, the man was formidable if you had seen a bit more of him you may have been able to give a more objective view but I get the feeling that would not make a big diff.Grendel said:
As I have said it seems that only the Hawk supporters on here pick Dunstall, there is a difference between loyalty and cold hard facts.
It was an honour to witness both in action but we all know who was the better. (even the loyal ones)
see what I mean, this guy didn't like LockettViperV10 said:
Dunstall could work a game? Lockett could tear a game apart.
Dunstall at least played at one club, that I wished Lockett had done.
I've never seen Dunstall play but ive seen a few videos of Lockett so i would have to say Lockett, very good kicker of the ball and was also hard at it.
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I don't think their is any suprise who i voted for.
Lockett kicked more goals, and i believe avg. more a game, but Dunstall was still one of the best FF of all time, he was a great leading FF, you can't really fault anyone for picking Dunstall over Lockett can you? Lets not forget Dunstall has quite a few premiership medalions, and in this case should count for something, unlike the debarcle over in judd v keating thread.
Lockett kicked more goals, and i believe avg. more a game, but Dunstall was still one of the best FF of all time, he was a great leading FF, you can't really fault anyone for picking Dunstall over Lockett can you? Lets not forget Dunstall has quite a few premiership medalions, and in this case should count for something, unlike the debarcle over in judd v keating thread.
Yep I can fault anyone who picks Dunstall over Lockett, you gave lockett number one spot in the first line of your post and let's face it , was it Locketts fault he didn't play in a premiership team? The premiership medalion part of of your argument is totally irrelevant.feher said:
but hey you are another Hawk fan.
The Fireman said:
You really should use Capitals and paragraphs. That aside, my premise remains the same, why funny that I should choose Dunstall over Lockett on what I witnessed and what he gave to the side? Would we have been better off with Lockett? Imo, no. That's why I choose Dunstall as the better FF for what his overall contribution was.
Lockett by a ratio of 4.88 to Dunstall at 4.46 *say 3 points extra for arguments sake*.
Yet that doesn't take into account who would have given away most on the day. Dunstall was far FAR superiour at doing that. How many did Lockett 'pass off' in his career? I'd say Dunstall would at least double the figure, perhaps more. Also at defensive pressure, consistency of output and little things like team ethic, dedication etc. Make it purely on goal kicking as is YOUR choice, fine. Take Lockett. Make it on overall contribution as is MY choice, fine too and for a matter of 0.42 per goal a game difference total, I take Dunstall.
it's not only the stats that show it but just have a look at some video, the man was formidable if you had seen a bit more of him you may have been able to give a more objective view but I get the feeling that would not make a big diff.
I can say exactly the same thing in regards to you seeing Dunstall can't I? Dunstall had to be fairly formidable as I think 1254 goals sort of speaks for itself. Or do you have a belief that he got pushed around or something?
It's not objective pov at all, you refuse to acknowledge any bias you may have as a Saints fan, it's a subjective pov. Mine is Dunstall (on acknowledged bias) of what I saw him achieve (and I saw most of his career live). I don't know how much of Lockett (you haven't said) that you saw 'live'. Regardless of that fact for either of us it's still a subjective excercise. IF it's clearly Lockett then why has Dunstall got a substantial (though trailing) 40% of the vote? If your're going to use "it's Hawks supporters" then I can say "it's Saints supporters" (Swans too I suppose) voting for Lockett.
Okay.. It's only Saints supporters that choose Lockett. Fair is fair.
Yea there is. Fact's say that Lockett kicked more than anyone. They don't say if he's the better FF. That is up to indivuals to argue over. If it's facts, Hudson stands alone at the top of the mountain 5.59 average. Near enough a goal better than Lockett.
Ablett or Carey, Matthews or Skilton, Hudson (better than anyone I've been told by those who saw him) or Coleman (better than anyone I've been told by those who saw him as well). Going further back, Pratt.. NOBODY came close from what I was told by old-timers that saw HIM live as well.
How can I dispute their interpretation when all I have is a final tally and nothing else to compare? No team instructions, no game plans, training, injury accounts, dedication to be the best they could etc?
Yea, for me and for my side and supporters, Dunstall. For you Lockett. I wouldn't swap and neither would you. So move on that you're not going to change my perception of the best FF I've seen live. It's Dunstall and all the rest is purely subjective argument, not fact. Unless you cling to soley the 0.42% which from my pov I can argue the defensive pressure/passing to others in better positions for Dunstall and his unselfishness as a FF.
But if it'll make you happy Dunstall's on record as saying Lockett was the best. Though I think Lockett is also on record as saying Dunstall was...
No there's a conudrum for you if ever there was.
Jubair said:
Sorry normally wouldn't do this but that's a very poor argument. By that logic I can say I never saw Skilton play but I have seen Darren Hulme on video so does that mean I'd have to say Hulme was the better player?
If you never saw the both of them, then really you aren't in a position to compare one against the other.
the fly
mmmm, erotic cakes
I'll say Lockett, but not by much.
Dunstall played in a great Hawthorn side in the late 80s so he had the benefit of much better delivery from the midfield than Lockett would have had at St Kilda, but he also had more quality forwards around him so he wasn't the sole target up forward.
Having said that, Lockett's ability to kick bags in a poor team at St Kilda (prior to them making the finals in the early 90s) and his imposing presence up forward gives him the nod.
Dunstall played in a great Hawthorn side in the late 80s so he had the benefit of much better delivery from the midfield than Lockett would have had at St Kilda, but he also had more quality forwards around him so he wasn't the sole target up forward.
Having said that, Lockett's ability to kick bags in a poor team at St Kilda (prior to them making the finals in the early 90s) and his imposing presence up forward gives him the nod.
The Fireman said:
Isn't it our prerogative to choose who we believe is the better Full Foward? After all it is our opinion. Why does it matter to you that people may think differently based on all of the variables on offer, as opposed to 2 basic stats?
Gunners Man
Debutant
Lockett easily.
Far more talented, better kick for goal, and had that bit of mongrel that made you want to watch him.
Piggy made good with the talent he was given, and was a great player in an even greater side...
How many times have we seen players who look very good in good sides, just not cut it in ordinary ones, or where they are the sole focus...
We will never know how Piggy would have gone had he been the sole focus in a forward line, and been consistently double and triple teamed throughout his career, I suspect still good, but not as great, whereas you swap Lockett into Hawthorn, the legend could have even grown...
Far more talented, better kick for goal, and had that bit of mongrel that made you want to watch him.
Piggy made good with the talent he was given, and was a great player in an even greater side...
How many times have we seen players who look very good in good sides, just not cut it in ordinary ones, or where they are the sole focus...
We will never know how Piggy would have gone had he been the sole focus in a forward line, and been consistently double and triple teamed throughout his career, I suspect still good, but not as great, whereas you swap Lockett into Hawthorn, the legend could have even grown...
Dunstall, because he didn't miss as many matches with suspension.
Gunners Man said:
argh yes i totally agree with lockett being the best, but one thing your failing to realise is that, Hawthorn wasnt exactly setting the world on fire from 92 till 98, they were an ordinary team outfit getting worse year by year, and dunstall was performing eventhough being double teamed. and the sole focus in a forward line, In 96 with a crappy team he single handely put us into fthe finals, kicking ten goals to bring up his 100th and beating melbourne who were 2nd or last on the ladder, by 1 point, we were no world beaters bud.
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As Grendel pointed out, goals a game avg, is almost identical, not as far apart as some seem to make it out to be.The Fireman said:
I am sure if we had Carey vs Hird, you would take Hird just about every time, am i wrong?
The premiership medals does count, when it seems that Lockett >>>>> Dunstall, if that is the case why did he fail to win one?
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