Multiculturalism - Should we change for others, or should they change for us?

[- PC -]

I would rather have tests in languages other than English, and know that the driver has at least passed an Australian standard driving test, than force them to take the IDP route. We wouldn't be achieving greater control of our roads - we'd be achieving less.

This lends itself to another thread topic. But is a Drivers Licence a right or an expectation ?

I don't think that a populist flag-waving policy is worth the hassle of more dead kids on our roads.

Explain this please Charlie.I'm not certain of your meaning.

 

[- PC -]

Good for you. Your personal preference, however, is not a determinant of good policy.

Correct. But if enough people feel like me then the policy will be changed by the populists pollies

 

[Murray]

This thread is just about in the toilet now

 

[jim boy]

If you couldnt speak English what would the second 50 sign be saying?

Shooting yourself in the foot are we? Even if I was that thick I didn't realise the meaning of it and I couldn't utilise the other obvious things that go hand in hand with it, such as the increased speed of other traffic or that I'm leaving town, then at worst, I'd just be driving at a safer speed than everyone else. And after I've passed the sign for tenth Time, I reckon I'll have cottoned on pretty well

If you couldnt speak German what would this sign be saying to you?

Obviously it says go in the direction of the arrow. And this is where you really come a cropper. It's not the text inside the arrow that's important, it's the symbol that's vital. If the text itself was in a white box, with no arrows or other embellishments, it would be as meaningless to a german as it would be to a non-german.

Of course all of this is meaningless anyway, the test, whichever language it's written in, still requirse the person sitting the test to recognise and know what road signs are.

 

[CharlieG]

This lends itself to another thread topic. But is a Drivers Licence a right or an expectation ?

It's not really relevent. A lot of people need them, and a lot of them struggle with English (let's face it, languages are hard for adults to learn), or for whatever reason (including disinterest) have not bothered to learn.

If you close off the best known (and, to us, most desirable) route to getting one, people will seek out the lesser known (and less desirable) avenue. It doesn't matter whether a license is a right, an expectation or a privelige.

Explain this please Charlie.I'm not certain of your meaning.

It's fairly simple. Consider the context within which this drivers license argument is taking place: a discussion (*cough*) of the merits of multiculturalism. Since this is the context in which the question is posed (not only on BF but in wider society), it is also the context in which the question will be answered. Given that attacks on multiculturalism have been a feature of populist politics in the past decade, it's easy to see that any change to our policy of accomodating language difficulties would be a populist decision, aimed at appealing to LCD voters... with their ignorance and petty prejudices.

All of these arguments over the status of English, head scarves, bacon burgers, flags in school yards and whether 'we want those kind of people here' are merely an Australian manifestation of right-wing identity politics.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Then they'd be in the exact same situation as an English speaker with no means of communication.

Besides, you monoculturalists aren't trying to prove how non-English speaking drivers put themselves at a disadvantage, but how they disadvantage the rest of us.

I am not a monoculturalist, i speak two languages

But my point was not suppossed to be based on just an australian point of view.

If i were in France for example i would ensure i took it upon myself to learn french so i was able to function fluidly in their society.

If i took some higher than mighty attitude i don't need to learn french and that my own language is all i need to know then frankly i don't deserve to be part of the french society because i'm showing them a kind of contempt for their history and customs.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Obviously it says go in the direction of the arrow. And this is where you really come a cropper. It's not the text inside the arrow that's important, it's the symbol that's vital. If the text itself was in a white box, with no arrows or other embellishments, it would be as meaningless to a german as it would be to a non-german.

The text is important as it's giving you information as to where that direction will take you.

Drive along the Western Ring Road and take all the text from the road signs that offshoot the highway and just leave the arrows, how would anyone know which area the offshoot went too?

 

[- PC -]

It's not really relevent. A lot of people need them,

Need or want? I just feel the tests ( for everyone) should be made harder.

If you close off the best known (and, to us, most desirable) route to getting one, people will seek out the lesser known (and less desirable) avenue. It doesn't matter whether a license is a right, an expectation or a privelige

Then any accident by these unlicensed people should hold more penalty.

It's fairly simple. Consider the context within which this drivers license argument is taking place: a discussion (*cough*) of the merits of multiculturalism. Since this is the context in which the question is posed (not only on BF but in wider society), it is also the context in which the question will be answered. Given that attacks on multiculturalism have been a feature of populist politics in the past decade, it's easy to see that any change to our policy of accomodating language difficulties would be a populist decision, aimed at appealing to LCD voters... with their ignorance and petty prejudices.

All of these arguments over the status of English, head scarves, bacon burgers, flags in school yards and whether 'we want those kind of people here' are merely an Australian manifestation of right-wing identity politics

.Ok so explain the dead kids comment?

 

[Monkster]

Oh my. I'd say you're stuck in the 19th century... but they weren't even so silly in the 19th century.

No in the 19th Century they expected to move to a country in droves and for everyone to learn the language they spoke rather than bothering to learn the language of the country they moved into.

OK let me get something straight, you would all advocate an English speaking person moving to a country such as Greece and for that person to expect everyone to learn English? Or would you expect that person would just find other English speakers and only socialise with them?

 

[Monkster]

All of these arguments over the status of English, head scarves, bacon burgers, flags in school yards and whether 'we want those kind of people here' are merely an Australian manifestation of right-wing identity politics.

Thats a nice view, it's a shame that it's as bigoted and biased as the views you acuse me of.

 

[medusala]

I am surprised that a person with your noticeable good sense and experience quotes this one. You would undoubtedly have observed the behavior of Australian expats abroad.

Consider the behavior of most Kiwis living in Australia when the All Blacks tour. The average Australian does not denounce them for cheering for their "home" team; they just expect and accept it. The same can be said of English born Aussie cricket lovers. I am not surprised at all when migrants get an opportunity to follow an ethnic based team.

I dont have an issue with a pom for example barracking for the poms in Australia. I dont expect them to change allegiance to the country of their birth. However, you miss the point with South Melbourne, Melb Knights etc in that the vast majority of their supporters were born in Australia.

I can recall a soccer game in Melbourne (v Turkey?) where the Australian team was booed running on to the ground. One would think it unlikely that the Turkish supporters had flown all the way from Europe.

I used to play club soccer for an ethnic team (Croatian). I gave up after a few games given the attitudes of some (not all but quite a few) ie constantly speaking in their own tongue and their particular targetting of players from other teams ie Serbs.

Many people would argue that the biggest hindrance to soccer in Australia is its problem with ethnic bases and some would argue that the success of Perth is largely due to a wider than normal supporter base.

 

[jim boy]

The text is important as it's giving you information as to where that direction will take you.

Drive along the Western Ring Road and take all the text from the road signs that offshoot the highway and just leave the arrows, how would anyone know which area the offshoot went too?

If you went around taking the 'one way' words from the black arrows that are currently around town and just left the white arrows on the black background, then I think I would cope just fine.

Even in your scenario, you're talking place names, which in themselves have no meaning, you only have to match up the letters to what you're expecting.

 

[CharlieG]

Need or want? I just feel the tests ( for everyone) should be made harder.

Probably a bit of both.

If you're going to make the tests harder, can you wait until I pass mine? I was a little slack getting my learners, and can't take the test until March. :frown:

Then any accident by these unlicensed people should hold more penalty.

But... they are licensed. We might not be satisfied by the license, but we are bound by the treaty. So what we should be doing is encouraging as many people as we can to go take the test.

Ok so explain the dead kids comment?

Oh, simple. By causing many of our thousands of non-English speaking immigrants each year to seek licenses without having to pass tests. This in turn will mean there are more unsafe drivers on the road.

It was a (deliberately) melodramatic way of making my point.

 

[CharlieG]

No in the 19th Century they expected to move to a country in droves and for everyone to learn the language they spoke rather than bothering to learn the language of the country they moved into.

OK let me get something straight, you would all advocate an English speaking person moving to a country such as Greece and for that person to expect everyone to learn English? Or would you expect that person would just find other English speakers and only socialise with them?

What a load of twaddle.

My point was simply that language barriers are nothing new, and certainly didn't prevent the first wave of nation building. 'Multiculturalism' has been a feature of Australian society since the arrival of white (and non-white) settlers.

 

[CharlieG]

Thats a nice view, it's a shame that it's as bigoted and biased as the views you acuse me of.

LOL, because I called you right-wing?

 

[medusala]

Given that attacks on multiculturalism have been a feature of populist politics in the past decade, it's easy to see that any change to our policy of accomodating language difficulties would be a populist decision, aimed at appealing to LCD voters... with their ignorance and petty prejudices.

All of these arguments over the status of English, head scarves, bacon burgers, flags in school yards and whether 'we want those kind of people here' are merely an Australian manifestation of right-wing identity politics.

Charlie, cut the crxp. How can you possibly argue that its populist,ignorant and prejudiced to argue that migrants should be fluent in English? There are clear economic reasons for this (leaving aside obvious social issues). Is there any valid economic reason to let illiterate people in to the country? No there isnt. They come at a net economic cost to the country.


Recent action by the "liberal" Dutch. Bunch of rednecks are they? The Danes have done similar as well. They rednecks as well? Turkey and Tunisia, rapidly anti muslim?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1827632_2,00.html

“Dutchness test” requires immigrants to take classes in language and culture
Imams accused of promoting terrorism are expelled
Residency permits of immigrants accused of petty crime can be revoked
Visas for young brides marrying into closed immigrant communities will be reduced

France and several regions of Germany have followed Turkey and Tunisia in banning the wearing of the hijab, which leaves the face visible, in public buildings, most controversially in schools.

 

[- PC -]

But... they are licensed. We might not be satisfied by the license, but we are bound by the treaty. So what we should be doing is encouraging as many people as we can to go take the test.

If you close off the best known (and, to us, most desirable) route to getting one, people will seek out the lesser known (and less desirable) avenue. It doesn't matter whether a license is a right, an expectation or a privelige

Oops I took this quote to mean that if we dont allow an easy pass then they would still drive anyway... that was my reference to making the penalty harsher.

Oh, simple. By causing many of our thousands of non-English speaking immigrants each year to seek licenses without having to pass tests. This in turn will mean there are more unsafe drivers on the road.

Well like heroin users who OD. Those deaths would not concern me .... except they would take innocents with them.

Once again those not licenced who are in an accident, whether their fault or not, should bear the brunt of a bigger penalty. ( anyway this has dragged it off topic I will let this go)

 

[- PC -]

There are clear economic reasons for this (leaving aside obvious social issues). Is there any valid economic reason to let illiterate people in to the country? No there isnt. They come at a net economic cost to the country.

I was going to post an economic argument but its not my strong point. Thank you for doing so. Along the lines of car accidents, then insurance premiums would go up ..across the board... so the community would be penalised not only the individual. This is relevant to the use of other heavy machinery.

 

[Murray]

Can't speak English = Illiterate

That's a stretch

If a Country A does something that is racist then it is OK for Australia to do - oh yeah let's see where that stupid argument takes us

 

[- PC -]

Can't speak English = Illiterate

That's a stretch

Can you point out where anyone has said this?

 

[PA HOG]

Many people would argue that the biggest hindrance to soccer in Australia is its problem with ethnic bases and some would argue that the success of Perth is largely due to a wider than normal supporter base.

Never truer words were spoken. Hopefully the current top executives will have some success with their efforts to overcome that problem. Nevertheless, this only addresses the problem of support for soccer itself, not quite the subject under discussion. The following of teams linked to your country of birth is perfectly natural and understandable. The bad behavior annoys me as much as it does you and is not natural. If anyone knows how to keep idiots away from sport, bottle it. You'll make a fortune.

 

[Murray]

Can you point out where anyone has said this?

Post 93, the one you quoted

 

[Monkster]

LOL, because I called you right-wing?

Yep you show an obvious bias that I am ring-wing because of my view that people moving into a country (again not just into Australia) should know the language of that country, when you couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[- PC -]

Post 93, the one you quoted

oops Fair enough

 

[- PC -]

There is a thread on the AFL board about the Aboriginal flag being shown with the Australian flag. A lot of debate has raged whether it should have been included or not.

My question, pertaining more to this thread is this, Is the inclusion of the Aboriginal flag as racist as the exclusion of the Greek, Italian , etc flags?

Isnt the whole point of multiculturalism about being one nation undivided?

The flag that all Greeks , Italians and Aboriginals live under is the Australian flag. To recognise one and not the other , to me , is a slur on all those other nationalities that made up that team...and vis a vis Australia as a nation.