Oppo Camp Non Geelong football (AFL) discussion 2021

[goyoucatters]

Game, set, match to those who suggest that there are people who just don't 'get' racism. Shaw and McGuire are now Exhibits A and B for this disturbing phenomenon.

 

[Drunkcat]

Gone now give the game away hawks not going well for 2021

 

[Partridge]

Game, set, match to those who suggest that there are people who just don't 'get' racism. Shaw and McGuire are now Exhibits A and B for this disturbing phenomenon.

At the same time, Shaw last played in 1994. If the issue is what is Collingwood like now - or even in the 2000s, it's after his time has passed.

I wouldn't say people don't 'get' it, some just are unapologetic. If they are going to say things to put you off your game, they'll say it. In a lot of sports, whatever it takes is the mindset.

 

[goyoucatters]

I wouldn't say people don't 'get' it, some just are unapologetic. If they are going to say things to put you off your game, they'll say it. In a lot of sports, whatever it takes is the mindset.

We all see it differently, of course. But I would say any person who is unapologetic about abusing someone for the colour of their skin (a matter over which they have no control) clearly doesn't 'get' it.

I take your point completely about people being desperate to find something to put someone off their game. Can't say I admire it but I understand it. Having said that, why that sledging doesn't relate to matters that the person can control (like their performance on the field) rather than matters for which they can never be sensibly held responsible is a mystery to me. Probably because that would take some wit and at least a modicum of compassion, I suppose.

Ultimately collapsing to the position of 'whatever it takes' has been the supposed reasoning behind a great deal of the suffering humans mete out upon one another over the course of history. So as a basis for human behaviour, I find it to be a very blunt and very ordinary instrument for decision making.

 

[Drunkcat]

We all see it differently, of course. But I would say any person who is unapologetic about abusing someone for the colour of their skin (a matter over which they have no control) clearly doesn't 'get' it.

I take your point completely about people being desperate to find something to put someone off their game. Can't say I admire it but I understand it. Having said that, why that sledging doesn't relate to matters that the person can control (like their performance on the field) rather than matters for which they can never be sensibly held responsible is a mystery to me. Probably because that would take some wit and at least a modicum of compassion, I suppose.

Ultimately collapsing to the position of 'whatever it takes' has been the supposed reasoning behind a great deal of the suffering humans mete out upon another over the course of history. So as a basis for human behaviour, I find it to be a very blunt and very ordinary instrument for decision making.

Are you a person of colour Goyoucatters as every year when this comes up you always fight with someone over this very strong opinions

 

[goyoucatters]

Are you a person of colour Goyoucatters as every year when this comes up you always fight with someone over this very strong opinions

No.

But you are right to say that I have very strong opinions about this. For me, no person should be derided because of the colour of their skin. It's not a choice they made, it's not something they can change in order to 'fit in'. So to abuse them for it just seems to me to be the height of arrogance, stupidity and heartlessness.

And that's three qualities I'd be fairly happy not to be associated with too often over the course of my life.

 

[you pick one]

At the same time, Shaw last played in 1994. If the issue is what is Collingwood like now - or even in the 2000s, it's after his time has passed.

I wouldn't say people don't 'get' it, some just are unapologetic. If they are going to say things to put you off your game, they'll say it. In a lot of sports, whatever it takes is the mindset.

Shaw was a great servant of the Collingwood footy club as well as the AFL he asked no quarter and gave none in return,he certainly looked to overstep the mark in some areas by todays standards,judging him in the times he played I'm betting it was pretty much the norm for his role in the side.
McGuire I can't find much good to say for him.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Shaw was a great servant of the Collingwood footy club as well as the AFL he asked no quarter and gave none in return,he certainly looked to overstep the mark in some areas by todays standards,judging him in the times he played I'm betting it was pretty much the norm for his role in the side.
McGuire I can't find much good to say for him.

Personally I don't really buy that excuse - as Dermott Brereton has acknowledged, they knew what they were doing was wrong at the time but did it anyway in order to gain an onfield advantage.

Worth remembering that Australian society was condemning Sth Africa for their Apartheid policy from as far back as the early 80s; anyone claiming that racism was an accepted standard by 1994 is wide of the mark.

 

[patience]

McGuire's press conference was a bloody disgrace.

 

[you pick one]

Personally I don't really buy that excuse - as Dermott Brereton has acknowledged, they knew what they were doing was wrong at the time but did it anyway in order to gain an onfield advantage.

Worth remembering that Australian society was condemning Sth Africa for their Apartheid policy from as far back as the early 80s; anyone claiming that racism was an accepted standard by 1994 is wide of the mark.

I find it difficult to make that link between a white authoritarian supremist political party in South Africa and the sledging that was going on at the MCG.But that's me,there are plenty of things I wouldn't dream of doing today that were just a natural reactions in the 70'/80s.

 

[AM]

McGuire's press conference was a bloody disgrace.

He's got a glass jaw. Loves to critique others but can't handle return serves.

Collingwood held onto this report for over six weeks. A report that was forced on them after they tried an internal review. Had it not been leaked I doubt it would ever have seen the light of day.

For someone who sees himself as a media guru, his handling of the matter was a car crash.

No question he's used his contacts and his hale-fellow-well-met persona to bring big dollars into the club. However, the management of the place during his time (and he's a hands-on Prez) has been appalling and has damaged the club's image. Not to mention his mantra when he first stood was flags. So his presidency has been a big fail for me.

 

[David the Cat]

Personally I don't really buy that excuse - as Dermott Brereton has acknowledged, they knew what they were doing was wrong at the time but did it anyway in order to gain an onfield advantage.

Worth remembering that Australian society was condemning Sth Africa for their Apartheid policy from as far back as the early 80s; anyone claiming that racism was an accepted standard by 1994 is wide of the mark.

Early 70's actually..I was present in anti apartheid demonstrations at Qld University in 1973...and I recall sanctions had been applied to SA by the Australian Govt by then..so the issue of racism was on the agenda way before Brereton's time. But racism is an insidious condition, and back then it was considered a real, but relatively minor issue by many in the general community.....no better illustrated in fact by Eddie Maguire, 50 years later.

The accusation that Eddie is a dinosaur with respect to this issue is indisputable IMO. He is in fact a mirror image of 70's/80's mainstream attitudes to racism.

I might add I worked for 3 years in Cape Town in the early 2000's....At that time, South Africa still had a mighty long way to go as far as racism was concerned.

 

[Cursed Cat]

I find it difficult to make that link between a white authoritarian supremist political party in South Africa and the sledging that was going on at the MCG.But that's me,there are plenty of things I wouldn't dream of doing today that were just a natural reactions in the 70'/80s.

You said that you'd bet that Shaw's behaviour was ''pretty much the norm'' at the time (and it was way too prevalent; the year before was the Nicky Winmar incident, the year after Monkhorst racially abused Michael Long) - but ''pretty much the norm'' doesn't mean it was right, nor does it mean that we didn't know any better even back then - the fact that our country (rightly) condemned the Sth African government for implementing their Apartheid policy at least 10 years prior to these incidents is just one measure of proving that feigning ignorance of the effects of racism was zero excuse.

What you claim were ''natural reactions'' in the 70s and 80s were anything but, they were disgusting and appalling and there were no excuses for it, even back then. I remember the captain of my U/15s or U/17s team trying it on with a black opponent back in the day, I had zero respect for the moron after that and told him to his face that he was a redneck.

 

[Drunkcat]

You said that you'd bet that Shaw's behaviour was ''pretty much the norm'' at the time (and it was way too prevalent; the year before was the Nicky Winmar incident, the year after Monkhorst racially abused Michael Long) - but ''pretty much the norm'' doesn't mean it was right, nor does it mean that we didn't know any better even back then - the fact that our country (rightly) condemned the Sth African government for implementing their Apartheid policy at least 10 years prior to these incidents is just one measure of proving that feigning ignorance of the effects of racism was zero excuse.

What you claim were ''natural reactions'' in the 70s and 80s were anything but, they were disgusting and appalling and there were no excuses for it, even back then. I remember the captain of my U/15s or U/17s team trying it on with a black opponent back in the day, I had zero respect for the moron after that and told him to his face that he was a redneck.

You would have been the first never seen anyone stand up against it back then

 

[Cursed Cat]

You would have been the first never seen anyone stand up against it back then

Depends on the company you kept I suppose - funny thing is that this kid (the captain) knew exactly what he'd done was wrong, he didn't say a thing in his own defense.

 

[Drunkcat]

Depends on the company you kept I suppose - funny thing is that this kid (the captain) knew exactly what he'd done was wrong, he didn't say a thing in his own defense.

maybe it was just the teams i played for

 

[Cursed Cat]

maybe it was just the teams i played for

well no, as I said the team I played for in the YVMDFL was captained by a moronic redneck.

come to think of it, I played for two teams as a kid, the other team actually had a black kid who was basically the best player in the comp (and went on to play U/19s with North Melbourne, kicked lots of goals and looked like cracking the VFL for a while there) but his (our) own teammates would make dumbarse comments about his colour that I know hurt him - a lot of these kids were his supposed mates; didn't help that the coach also got in on the act.

 

[you pick one]

You said that you'd bet that Shaw's behaviour was ''pretty much the norm'' at the time (and it was way too prevalent; the year before was the Nicky Winmar incident, the year after Monkhorst racially abused Michael Long) - but ''pretty much the norm'' doesn't mean it was right, nor does it mean that we didn't know any better even back then - the fact that our country (rightly) condemned the Sth African government for implementing their Apartheid policy at least 10 years prior to these incidents is just one measure of proving that feigning ignorance of the effects of racism was zero excuse.

What you claim were ''natural reactions'' in the 70s and 80s were anything but, they were disgusting and appalling and there were no excuses for it, even back then. I remember the captain of my U/15s or U/17s team trying it on with a black opponent back in the day, I had zero respect for the moron after that and told him to his face that he was a redneck.

I was talking there about what came natural to me at the time.

 

[Cursed Cat]

I was talking there about what came natural to me at the time.

It came natural to you at the time to racially abuse people?

 

[Drunkcat]

well no, as I said the team I played for in the YVMDFL was captained by a moronic redneck.

come to think of it, I played for two teams as a kid, the other team actually had a black kid who was basically the best player in the comp (and went on to play U/19s with North Melbourne, kicked lots of goals and looked like cracking the VFL for a while there) but his (our) own teammates would make dumbarse comments about his colour that I know hurt him - a lot of these kids were his supposed mates; didn't help that the coach also got in on the act.

Then again i played with and against more italians and greeks you called them wogs but they did not back down so that was ok i guess

 

[Cursed Cat]

Then again i played with and against more italians and greeks you called them wogs but they did not back down so that was ok i guess

I played with tons of Italians and Greeks, the 2nd team I played for was basically all Italians and Greeks, potato farmers. Most of them were tough kids too.

 

[you pick one]

It came natural to you at the time to racially abuse people?

I guess so on your definition but in my defence I was an equal opportunity racist.I never singled out any one group.

 

[Cursed Cat]

I guess so on your definition but in my defence I was an equal opportunity racist.I never singled out any one group.

It's not my definition ...

do you regret it?

 

[you pick one]

Early 70's actually..I was present in anti apartheid demonstrations at Qld University in 1973...and I recall sanctions had been applied to SA by the Australian Govt by then..so the issue of racism was on the agenda way before Brereton's time. But racism is an insidious condition, and back then it was considered a real, but relatively minor issue by many in the general community.....no better illustrated in fact by Eddie Maguire, 50 years later.

The accusation that Eddie is a dinosaur with respect to this issue is indisputable IMO. He is in fact a mirror image of 70's/80's mainstream attitudes to racism.

I might add I worked for 3 years in Cape Town in the early 2000's....At that time, South Africa still had a mighty long way to go as far as racism was concerned.

I was in Brisbane working on flood relief and the gravel barge stuck under the Centenary bridge.

 

[Spazz Cat]

You said that you'd bet that Shaw's behaviour was ''pretty much the norm'' at the time (and it was way too prevalent; the year before was the Nicky Winmar incident, the year after Monkhorst racially abused Michael Long) - but ''pretty much the norm'' doesn't mean it was right, nor does it mean that we didn't know any better even back then - the fact that our country (rightly) condemned the Sth African government for implementing their Apartheid policy at least 10 years prior to these incidents is just one measure of proving that feigning ignorance of the effects of racism was zero excuse.

What you claim were ''natural reactions'' in the 70s and 80s were anything but, they were disgusting and appalling and there were no excuses for it, even back then. I remember the captain of my U/15s or U/17s team trying it on with a black opponent back in the day, I had zero respect for the moron after that and told him to his face that he was a redneck.

I've gotta say your a better man than I. Thats for sure. I actually had never really heard the term redneck till probably the late 90's.
There wasn't that much racial shit going on when I was playing footy though. A bit but not much.
I remember as a kid going to a Cats v Essendon game. (The Gaz goal from the boundary game)
And some of our fans were just racially giving it to Cockatoo Collins and Long.
I said nothing. But no-one did.