Our biggest trade/draft period EVER.

[Quicky]

You do know that Sinclairs effective disposal percentage is 83.5% and averages 1.1 clangers per game. Only Nathan Brown 84.8% and Lachlan Keeffe 83.7% is better in our side and no one has a lower average in Clangers?

It is amazing how different perception is to reality. I think that is the word that the umpires keep putting up as excuses for poor umpiring, "perception". Sinclair was chosen to be a whipping boy, and god damn it, supporters are going to whip their boy whether stats back it up or not. Sinclair prior to his injury, went a long way to proving supporters wrong. He is following in the footsteps of former whipping boys Alan Toovey and Ben Johnson.

My comment about Sinclair wasn't just down to disposal efficiency. It's about balance as much as anything. I want to see a player that can play small and medium, I want someone with height, I want someone with incisive footskills and someone that can get across and effect the contest in the air and help out as a third man.

Sinclair can play small but not medium, his kicking skills are not incisive (although his pace is), he is short and can't effect the contest in the air. With Marley and maybe Shaw back there we can't afford another short arse in defense (of all positions not here) and I like the other two more. Plus we have Toovey back as well.

On disposal efficiency, I think people get far too hung up on disposal efficiency statistics. They are notoriously flawed for a number of reasons (the parameters with which they are measured) which I won't go into. I prefer to make my own judgement on that one. Sinclair was better out of defense than he was forward with his disposals to be fair but what I think this side is crying out for is someone who is incisive.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate how much Sinclair has improved but I think we can do better. I think with the game style we are playing we need to put a premium on footskills and that puts Sinclair at a disadvantage. I guess we just have to disagree about his footskills on this one because I don't think Sinclairs are much chop.

 

[Pie Guy]

I think Clinton Young will play every game next year. He is the 189cm guy your after. Shaw won't be there. If Young and Toovey are there, with Keeffe and Reid or Brown, we have enough height. We need someone who can play on the super quicks and Sinclair and Marley will do that for us.

I don't think the parameters with which effective disposals are measured is that if you hit your target it is effective, and if you don't it is ineffective. Can't really be bent to consider you a great disposal when you are in fact a poor one.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Hoping for Adams and draft picks. Nothing else.

 

[Pie Guy]

Cloke gets to the ball too quick???????? Don't know whether to laugh or cry at that one. The idea is to get the ball to the forwards as quick as possible as that makes it harder to defend. If Cloke somehow manages to get to the ball too quikly, that would be a bonus.

Don't know if you saw the Pt Adelaide final, if not, do go and watch and you will see one of the worst exhibitions of kicking skills, particularly into the forward line, in finals history. Has been happening all year and reached a peak under finals pressure.

We cannot afford a backline next year with all of Toovey, Sinclair and Williams as some posters on here have indicated. It will result in a turnover rate that will reach world record proportions.

You missed the point with getting to the ball too quick call. What I mean is forward don't tend to leave their opponent for dead, otherwise the defender wouldn't be getting a game, or he would be matched up on a slower opponent, like Brown is a lot of the times. What great forwards do, is they lead at 85% speed, and they get to two meters from the ball, and they almost stall to 70% pace, wait for the ball to be dropping in front of them, not above them, and they have that turn of speed in the last few strides, that leaves the defender 1 meter behind. Cloke often leads his player to the ball. So it is not so much pace on the lead I was talking about, just smartness on the lead. Dunstall was awesome at it. But I think Cloke is more like Carey than Dunstall.

Yes we had a shocker game against Port, I saw that too. But I don't watch one game, and say our team has the problems that presented here and that is us. It's not us. 15 players that played in that game played in the 2010 Grand Final.

IN: Brodie Grundy, Marley Williams, Josh Thomas, Paul Seedsman, Sam Dwyer, Jamie Elliott, and Lachie Keefe
OUT: Darren Jolly, Alan Toovey, Dale Thomas, Sharrod Wellingham, Ben Johnson, Chris Dawes, and Leigh Brown

Looking at our IN's, I have faith in those players playing a role for us into the future for sure. Alan Toovey and Dale Thomas come back in next year to replace Didak and Shaw, and then we have Young, who played in Hawthorns Grand Final, and another couple of handy players, not to mention the players we get to fill our salary cap again like White. So the players CAN play better than what they did in the Elimination Final, and that one game can't be an indicator to what we are capable as a side.

The turn over rate of those players are easily seen in their effective disposal stats. Sinclair 83.5% Effective, Toovey 69% effective and Williams 73.3% effective Average between the three of them 75% effective. Compare to Hawks yesterday Sewell 66.7%, Stratton 77.7% and Burgoyne 72.8 Average between three of them 72.4.

Players will turn it over, whether they are the premiers or the 8th best side. The difference is smaller than you think. By world record proportions, you did mean records as in stats, or don't they matter.

 

[Shaneprice97]

Motl

Depends where the club sees itself. Are we a genuine premiership threat next year, or rebuilding?

If rebuilding, get as many good young players in the draft as possible\, even if it means trading players like Shaw, Reid etc.

If we are to have a crack at the flag, then we need players who can have immeadiate impact.

Looking at the team with the X's being players we need to make us competetive with the likes of Hawthorn, and given that Heath Shaw will definitely be traded

B Toovey Brown Goldsack
HB x1 Keefe X2
C Seedsman Pendlebury Young????????
Hf Elliot Reid Fasolo
F X3 Cloke X4

R Grundy/Witts Beams Swan

Inter Blair, J thomas, Kennedy, Williams

X1- needs to have pace and elite kicking skills -- Dal Santo--free agency
X2- needs pace and elite kicking skills----- Atley from North Melbourne would be ideal, if Hawks can plunder and burn North, why can't we??? Perhaps a swap for Sidebottom? Hence Sidebottom not named in this team
X3- Tall forward- seems like Jesse White for a second round pick may happen. White is a serviceable player. Looked finished after Adelaide knocked him back due to concerns with his knee , but this year was good. May be that Cam Mooney equivalent for us.
X4- If Heater goes , I would like to see him go to Geelong for Motlop. Motlop can be an elite small forward and we desperately need a crumber. He also has speed and is an accurate kick for goal

With the above scenario, that would give us 6 forwards who are capable of 30 plus goals for the year, and a back half with line breaking speed and enough elite kicking skills to make our forward entries count.

The question marks would be the very inexpierienced ruck division, Young on a wing who seems to be permanently injured and possibly our depth.

PS. No Dale Thomas as I have been told his ankle is stuffed.

motlop getting motlop pfft? And getting rid of sidebottom? One of the most promising midfielders in the game. You must be kidding

 

[Shaneprice97]

getting motlop pfft? And getting rid of sidebottom? One of the most promising midfielders in the game. You must be kidding

 

[jjsmitty8]

Hey guys, new to the place will introduce myself in due time.

I really like the option of getting Jesse White. I strongly feel that Reid does his best work down back. Reid occupying CHB, and Brown FB is our best set up. I think we need to accept that the Q stick path didn't quite work. White and Cloke would be a better combo. I know this leaves Lynch and Keeffe stranded, but I think if we had White and we had to pick our best side with our talls, then they'd be left out.

PS. I like the option of fishing Shaw around to see what we can get. If he deal is right, I say do it!

 

[soreplums]

As mentioned often throughout many threads, Reid is our swingman and we should use him as such. If we can get another tall to play up forward, Reid can sure up our backline and repel with some attacking kicking from half back. Combine that with some run from daisy (if he stays) and long attacking kicking from young, the ball will enter our forward 50m much more quickly and give our forwards a good chance of having a shot at goal. The way our forwards set up and how we delivered the ball to them was a big problem this year. It looks as though the plan is to keep the ball moving and when you pass the centre kick it long into the forward line, but we were too slow in doing that this year.

 

[Swooop]

Welcome to BF jjsmitty8

Yeah, I don't think it ever hurts being open minded re Heater, hopefully win-win either way.

Agree White should be an upgrade on Lynch and good to have KPP back ups in case of injury etc.

Noticed Trav credited Lynch with really helping his game this year by teaching him structure and position etc, so maybe the Q stick can bide his time teaching the Paines and Gaults of the world in the Ressies and be there in reserve, bit like Dave's favourite, Old Man Hudson!

 

[jjsmitty8]

Welcome to BF jjsmitty8

Yeah, I don't think it ever hurts being open minded re Heater, hopefully win-win either way.

Agree White should be an upgrade on Lynch and good to have KPP back ups in case of injury etc.

Noticed Trav credited Lynch with really helping his game this year by teaching him structure and position etc, so maybe the Q stick can bide his time teaching the Paines and Gaults of the world in the Ressies and be there in reserve, bit like Dave's favourite, Old Man Hudson!

Cheers mate

Definitely. I see Lynch as almost a 'quick fix' so to speak. No doubt he is a KPP, but whether or not he fits what we're trying to achieve is a different question. He can ruck IF we need him, but he doesn't have a great forward presence anymore (well last year he didn't). I think what we saw from White in the second half of 2013 would compliment Cloke a lot better.

 

[loki04]

I think Clinton Young will play every game next year. He is the 189cm guy your after. Shaw won't be there. If Young and Toovey are there, with Keeffe and Reid or Brown, we have enough height. We need someone who can play on the super quicks and Sinclair and Marley will do that for us.

I don't think the parameters with which effective disposals are measured is that if you hit your target it is effective, and if you don't it is ineffective. Can't really be bent to consider you a great disposal when you are in fact a poor one.

DE doesn't take into account kicking to advantage so you can bomb the ball on Clokes head with 3 opponents on him as long as he contests it they deem it "effective" when clearly it isn't.

 

[jjsmitty8]

DE doesn't take into account kicking to advantage so you can bomb the ball on Clokes head with 3 opponents on him as long as he contests it they deem it "effective" when clearly it isn't.

That will be the key, DE. No doubt he has a damaging left boot that can break lines, but if he can hit a target inside 50, then I believe that would make him more valuable than Heath Shaw who has a tendency to run through the lines and turn it over. He could fill the void immediately if Shaw were to leave.

 

[Visions]

DE doesn't take into account kicking to advantage so you can bomb the ball on Clokes head with 3 opponents on him as long as he contests it they deem it "effective" when clearly it isn't.

Yep, hence why efficiency statistics are misleading.

 

[Dundalis]

The only player possibly available that I would even be remotely interested in is Dustin Martin. The way teams are dropping away like flies from pursuing him tells me he's asking for too much money.

If you can do a deal with Richmond and get him on a reasonable salary, then you should look at it. The rest of the options are meh.

 

[Bring_Back_Brad]

Hey guys, new to the place will introduce myself in due time.

I really like the option of getting Jesse White. I strongly feel that Reid does his best work down back. Reid occupying CHB, and Brown FB is our best set up. I think we need to accept that the Q stick path didn't quite work. White and Cloke would be a better combo. I know this leaves Lynch and Keeffe stranded, but I think if we had White and we had to pick our best side with our talls, then they'd be left out.

PS. I like the option of fishing Shaw around to see what we can get. If he deal is right, I say do it!

Reid will stay up forward. He will be a 50+ goal forward next year, we can't pass that up, especially with Clokes goal accuracy issues. It wouldn't surprise me if he kicked 60. It's actually something we've lacked for several years and we didn't really start looking dangerous this year till he went forward permanently.

Tight back lines are one thing, but we've seen countless times over recent years that come grand final day, the teams with an attacking forward line win against teams who preference defence.
The back line needs fixing but recruiting is the key, not pinching our new star forward.
Need to get rid of nick maxwell too, that is the no1 priority over anything else at the moment. Watching Lake in the GF should make people realise just how average maxwell performs that sweeping back role. Can't accept mediocracy in the team any more.

 

[kevind]

Motl
motlop getting motlop pfft? And getting rid of sidebottom? One of the most promising midfielders in the game. You must be kidding

Do yourself a favour and have a look at a Geelong game. Motlop is already a very good small forward and has the makings of an elite one. He can crumb, a skill that you cannot teach and we have zero crumbers on our list let alone playing in our AFL side. Motlop also has the ability to play other positions but would fill a gaping hole in our team.

Given that Shaw appears to be out the door, and the Cats have shown interest, they are hardly likely to offer up Joel Selwood. Motlop and an exchange of picks may get the deal done.

As for Sidebottom, he is a solid citizen, has elite endurance and is usually a one touch player, despite the fact that he fumbled a lot this year. He is also, however, slow for his size, not strong enough to play as an inside mid and his kicking is average at best. Again to gain quality, you need to offer quality. Atley, I believe has all the attributes to become an elite, line breaking half back.

It would be nice if we could plunder and pillage quality from the weaker clubs for little in return like Hawthorn, but I don't believe we will be able to over the draft period.

 

[kevind]

You missed the point with getting to the ball too quick call. What I mean is forward don't tend to leave their opponent for dead, otherwise the defender wouldn't be getting a game, or he would be matched up on a slower opponent, like Brown is a lot of the times. What great forwards do, is they lead at 85% speed, and they get to two meters from the ball, and they almost stall to 70% pace, wait for the ball to be dropping in front of them, not above them, and they have that turn of speed in the last few strides, that leaves the defender 1 meter behind. Cloke often leads his player to the ball. So it is not so much pace on the lead I was talking about, just smartness on the lead. Dunstall was awesome at it. But I think Cloke is more like Carey than Dunstall.

Yes we had a shocker game against Port, I saw that too. But I don't watch one game, and say our team has the problems that presented here and that is us. It's not us. 15 players that played in that game played in the 2010 Grand Final.

IN: Brodie Grundy, Marley Williams, Josh Thomas, Paul Seedsman, Sam Dwyer, Jamie Elliott, and Lachie Keefe
OUT: Darren Jolly, Alan Toovey, Dale Thomas, Sharrod Wellingham, Ben Johnson, Chris Dawes, and Leigh Brown

Looking at our IN's, I have faith in those players playing a role for us into the future for sure. Alan Toovey and Dale Thomas come back in next year to replace Didak and Shaw, and then we have Young, who played in Hawthorns Grand Final, and another couple of handy players, not to mention the players we get to fill our salary cap again like White. So the players CAN play better than what they did in the Elimination Final, and that one game can't be an indicator to what we are capable as a side.

The turn over rate of those players are easily seen in their effective disposal stats. Sinclair 83.5% Effective, Toovey 69% effective and Williams 73.3% effective Average between the three of them 75% effective. Compare to Hawks yesterday Sewell 66.7%, Stratton 77.7% and Burgoyne 72.8 Average between three of them 72.4.

I don't think I missed the point, it was poorly expressed in the first place. What you are talking about is Cloke not using his body to create space for himself. But no body work helps when the ball is kicked over your head or at your feet like we did against Pt Adelaide.

With our slowness of ball movement, our forward line is usually stacked with defenders, so there is usually little space for Cloke to be able to use his body as you suggest. When Dunstall played, forward lines were open for business, not stacked with players positioned behind the ball, so it's a poor comparison.

As for Daisy, he is unfortunately pretty much finished due to his ankle and he knows it. Heard it from a bloke who is in business with him. Young was always injured at Hawthorn and has hardly played all year. That is par for the course from him. I wouldn't have high hopes on that score.

As for your stats, they simply show how misleading stats can be. Are you seriously suggesting players like Sinclair, Toovey, Williams ect have anywhere near the elite kicking skills of Burgoyne, Hodge, Stratton, Guerra, Birchall?????? No they don't is the answer. There is no other possible answer. Comparing Hawthorn's players stats to ours on GF day when the wind was blowing all over the shop and they played against the fiercest pressure all year is luicrous. IF we had of played Freo yesterday, as a team we would have been lucky to reach 50% DE.

It is our biggest weakness. Kicking skills. If we get rid of Shaw and stack our back line with Toovey, Sinclair and Williams, we will not make the finals next year.

 

[Shaneprice97]

Do yourself a favour and have a look at a Geelong game. Motlop is already a very good small forward and has the makings of an elite one. He can crumb, a skill that you cannot teach and we have zero crumbers on our list let alone playing in our AFL side. Motlop also has the ability to play other positions but would fill a gaping hole in our team.

Given that Shaw appears to be out the door, and the Cats have shown interest, they are hardly likely to offer up Joel Selwood. Motlop and an exchange of picks may get the deal done.

As for Sidebottom, he is a solid citizen, has elite endurance and is usually a one touch player, despite the fact that he fumbled a lot this year. He is also, however, slow for his size, not strong enough to play as an inside mid and his kicking is average at best. Again to gain quality, you need to offer quality. Atley, I believe has all the attributes to become an elite, line breaking half back.

It would be nice if we could plunder and pillage quality from the weaker clubs for little in return like Hawthorn, but I don't believe we will be able to over the draft period.

1. I already know motlops a gun, 40+ magical goals and an all australian squad nomination
2. There is know way geelong will be getting rid of him
3. He just signed on for another 2 years about a month back

 

[Shaneprice97]

1. I already know motlops a gun, 40+ magical goals and an all australian squad nomination
2. There is know way geelong will be getting rid of him
3. He just signed on for another 2 years about a month back

No* instead of Know

 

[jjsmitty8]

Reid will stay up forward. He will be a 50+ goal forward next year, we can't pass that up, especially with Clokes goal accuracy issues. It wouldn't surprise me if he kicked 60. It's actually something we've lacked for several years and we didn't really start looking dangerous this year till he went forward permanently.

Tight back lines are one thing, but we've seen countless times over recent years that come grand final day, the teams with an attacking forward line win against teams who preference defence.
The back line needs fixing but recruiting is the key, not pinching our new star forward.
Need to get rid of nick maxwell too, that is the no1 priority over anything else at the moment. Watching Lake in the GF should make people realise just how average maxwell performs that sweeping back role. Can't accept mediocracy in the team any more.

I definitely disagree. We saw Ben Reid be exposed in the elimination final. He is a swingman, it's the new trend. He does his best work down back, it's not just about the fact that he can kick goals up forward, but he is an All Australian CHB for a reason.

I don't think you can replace the value he has down back with a Brown of Keeffe. It's easier to find other avenues to goal through midfielders and dangerous small forwards, than it is to replace a key defender. Reid is by far our best key defender. We've got more options going forward with Swan, and other crumbing players.

 

[kevind]

1. I already know motlops a gun, 40+ magical goals and an all australian squad nomination
2. There is know way geelong will be getting rid of him
3. He just signed on for another 2 years about a month back

Heath Shaw also has a contract for another 1 or 2 years. Things can be negotiated, Good clubs get deals they need done. Look at Hawthorn. They piched North's best defender in Gibson, the Bulldogs best defender in Lake, Port Adelaide's best player in Burgoyne and Adelaide's best 3rd tall forward in Gunston.

If you are goingto get rid of players like Shaw, you need to recruit players who are definite best 22 players that fit a specific deciency. I've seen on this board a heap of Geeelong players like Billy Smedts ect as possible trades. Don't want players who have not proved to be best 22 players yet.

Last year we squandered a draft pick on Jordan Russell who is/was a train wreck of a footballer. You cannot afford to do that. If recruiting, make sure you are getting a best 22 player.

 

[Pie Guy]

I don't think I missed the point, it was poorly expressed in the first place. What you are talking about is Cloke not using his body to create space for himself. But no body work helps when the ball is kicked over your head or at your feet like we did against Pt Adelaide.

You missed the point whether it was my bad explaination or your bad understanding of it. A miss is a miss.

With our slowness of ball movement, our forward line is usually stacked with defenders, so there is usually little space for Cloke to be able to use his body as you suggest. When Dunstall played, forward lines were open for business, not stacked with players positioned behind the ball, so it's a poor comparison.

That is why I said to move Cloke to CHF, because the target would be there, and his fast run back on the mark, and long racking left foot to the hot spot would be a great remedy to our issues.

As for Daisy, he is unfortunately pretty much finished due to his ankle and he knows it. Heard it from a bloke who is in business with him. Young was always injured at Hawthorn and has hardly played all year. That is par for the course from him. I wouldn't have high hopes on that score.

Young played 20 games last year. Played 17 games in 2010, 20 in 2008 and 23 in 2007. Yes he had a couple of injury plagued years, but surely the bloke isn't that unlucky. Even David Schwartz's luck changed eventually. But far be it for me to ask for you to be more positive rather than negative. Thomas himself says it is ok, and from an outsider looking in, it isn't rocket science to suggest he's had a stuffed ankle.

As for your stats, they simply show how misleading stats can be. Are you seriously suggesting players like Sinclair, Toovey, Williams ect have anywhere near the elite kicking skills of Burgoyne, Hodge, Stratton, Guerra, Birchall?????? No they don't is the answer. There is no other possible answer. Comparing Hawthorn's players stats to ours on GF day when the wind was blowing all over the shop and they played against the fiercest pressure all year is luicrous. IF we had of played Freo yesterday, as a team we would have been lucky to reach 50% DE.

Yes I am suggesting that. How on earth are you going to justify that the stats could be wrong on this one. It is a pretty black and white stat. Simply if you hit a target you get a tick, if you miss, you get a cross. How much more simple do you want it. Sure these guys are not as perhaps accountable for their player, and maybe don't impact the contest as well, but as far as pure effectiveness, it can't be any more simple. Its just that supporters get right carried away with that is such and such, he is expected to hit his target, or that is Sinclair, he infuriated me in his first year or two, so he is crap and there is no one that will convince me other wise.

It is our biggest weakness. Kicking skills. If we get rid of Shaw and stack our back line with Toovey, Sinclair and Williams, we will not make the finals next year.

So you reckon, but you have already proved to be a negative person, so please understand if I don't believe you.

 

[Pie Guy]

Heath Shaw also has a contract for another 1 or 2 years. Things can be negotiated, Good clubs get deals they need done. Look at Hawthorn. They piched North's best defender in Gibson, the Bulldogs best defender in Lake, Port Adelaide's best player in Burgoyne and Adelaide's best 3rd tall forward in Gunston.

If you are goingto get rid of players like Shaw, you need to recruit players who are definite best 22 players that fit a specific deciency. I've seen on this board a heap of Geeelong players like Billy Smedts ect as possible trades. Don't want players who have not proved to be best 22 players yet.

Last year we squandered a draft pick on Jordan Russell who is/was a train wreck of a footballer. You cannot afford to do that. If recruiting, make sure you are getting a best 22 player.

Gunston played 14 games in two years with Adelaide. Smedts has played 27 in the past two years. Brian Lake was a washed up has been when he left the Dogs he played 5 games in 2011 and although he bounced back somewhat, he was 30. I remember ALOT of Collingwood fans saying NO WAY, when they considered Lake last year. Russell had played 23 games in 2010, and was a top five pick. He cost us pick 70 something. Leigh Brown was also a massive DUD when we got him, but despite the risk, it paid off, and Pie fans lauded the recruiting of him.

Hindsite is your friend isn't it. It is easy to call from your armchair after the event. It is obvious we need to get value from a player like Shaw, EVERYONE is fully aware of that. Players that have REALISED their talents cost too much, and players that have shown to be flawed, like Shaw himself with his behaviour, are what is going to be offered up for Shaw. We just need to forsee the future, rather than sitting back when it is all said and done, and saying that was wrong, that was right.

 

[kevind]

So you reckon, but you have already proved to be a negative person, so please understand if I don't believe you.

If you can't argue without personal attacks, you are just wasting my time. Negative people are the ones who resort to personal attacks

As a little exercise, find another person in this universe that agrees the Collingwood players you named are as good with their kicking skills as the Hawthorn players mentioned. If you find 1, that would surprise.

 

[Shaneprice97]

Heath Shaw also has a contract for another 1 or 2 years. Things can be negotiated, Good clubs get deals they need done. Look at Hawthorn. They piched North's best defender in Gibson, the Bulldogs best defender in Lake, Port Adelaide's best player in Burgoyne and Adelaide's best 3rd tall forward in Gunston.

If you are goingto get rid of players like Shaw, you need to recruit players who are definite best 22 players that fit a specific deciency. I've seen on this board a heap of Geeelong players like Billy Smedts ect as possible trades. Don't want players who have not proved to be best 22 players yet.

Last year we squandered a draft pick on Jordan Russell who is/was a train wreck of a footballer. You cannot afford to do that. If recruiting, make sure you are getting a best 22 player.

No chance of motlop, i like Smedts and also Mitch Duncan