List Mgmt. 'Play hardball': Mitch Robinson urges the Suns to re-draft Jack Martin

[Upgrayedd]

The money doesn't matter to Gold Coast if they have room in the cap.

No club has the room in the cap to pay 1/11th of their salary cap for a lively HFF for the ressies

 

[spenze]

As much as I'd like to see GC take Martin first pick, what would be the point? Contracts mean little in this day and age where players and player managers can walk out of contracts almost at will. What it'd mean is they draft him, pay allegedly 1.2 mil next season and at the end of the year, Jack wants out again. If he was a gun, then you could see the point of getting 1 season out of him and maximising some return but he just isn't that good a player to make that play on.

If Carlton get him, then fair enough, hasn't cost them a pick, maybe over priced but if there is anyone who can take a player from interstate and get the best out of them, it's SOS and Carlton, so it should work out.

 

[Damon_3388]

But you didn’t explain anything at all.
I explained the consequence of your thought bubble. You gave nothing in return and are now trying to distract from the fact that you don’t have a coherent argument by acting offended.
Is this your normal modus operandi? Attack, double down, then sook?

I contend that the purpose of your "deconstruction" is to distract from the fact that you don't have any argument to provide on the topic, but somehow gain pleasure and satisfaction by attempting to bait people into some ban-worthy meltdown, by attempting to make me feel personally inadequate. Classic trolling. Unfortunately, you're not going to get the result you want, because I'm secure in my opinion and my right to offer it on this forum.

I'm not "sooking", I'm calling you on your shit. The game is up. I'm happy to discuss the topic, but persisting with trying to cut me down is just sad, really.

 

[Clems Knee]

I contend that the purpose of your "deconstruction" is to distract from the fact that you don't have any argument to provide on the topic, but somehow gain pleasure and satisfaction by attempting to bait people into some ban-worthy meltdown, by attempting to make me feel personally inadequate. Classic trolling. Unfortunately, you're not going to get the result you want, because I'm secure in my opinion and my right to offer it on this forum.

I'm not "sooking", I'm calling you on your shit. The game is up. I'm happy to discuss the topic, but persisting with trying to cut me down is just sad, really.

So bloody discuss the topic. You have been very reticent.
You claim the AFL is illogical, but refuse to consider the consequence of your suggestions. Anyone using the term illogical should be able to use logic.
And the consequence of your suggestion would be the destruction of the AFL.

You haven’t called me out at all, you haven’t actually said anything at all except for - let’s have free agency for all and if a club can’t keep their players it’s their bad luck. No trades needed, it’s a free for all. And I assume your love of unAustralian sports means you think there shouldn’t be a salary cap either: you certainly alluded to it with your comment about professionalism. But you haven’t backed up these simple ideas with a cogent argument. You’ve just ducked behind a cover of righteous offendedness.

I’m not trolling. I’m not trying to get you to melt down. Im trying to get you to think what your suggestion would mean. It’s very edgy to criticise the AFL, but to break down the system of player transfer and player payments would mean the end of our sport.

Why does it matter? Because people like you; people who make reactionary ill considered suggestions get into power nowadays and stuff things up for everybody. Because there are enough people who can only grasp a single syllable idea and then run with it.

And yes I believe you have the right to offer your opinion. I also have the right to expose its stupidity.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I agree, it’s be be incredibly stupid if him to do that. I was just pointing out that it was an option open to him, and maybe if he is not enjoying football at GCS... well, look at the money Tom Boyd gave up (admittedly he had earnt a lot more too).


My understanding is that whichever club picks him up has to include the nominated amount and years in their salary cap. They are free to add extra years though.

Eg Martin nominates 3 years at $800,000 per year and Carlton picks him. Then Carlton’s salary cap has that in it for those three years, even if he renegotiated to 5 years at $500,000.

Didn't the AFL shut this down with the Vickery deal?

They did a faux 2 year deal (to juice our compo), but when they tried to add a third year for SFA, the AFL insisted the two year deals annualized rate had to be continued.

 

[Damon_3388]

So bloody discuss the topic. You have been very reticent.
You claim the AFL is illogical, but refuse to consider the consequence of your suggestions. Anyone using the term illogical should be able to use logic.
And the consequence of your suggestion would be the destruction of the AFL.

You haven’t called me out at all, you haven’t actually said anything at all except for - let’s have free agency for all and if a club can’t keep their players it’s their bad luck. No trades needed, it’s a free for all. And I assume your love of unAustralian sports means you think there shouldn’t be a salary cap either: you certainly alluded to it with your comment about professionalism. But you haven’t backed up these simple ideas with a cogent argument. You’ve just ducked behind a cover of righteous offendedness.

I’m not trolling. I’m not trying to get you to melt down. Im trying to get you to think what your suggestion would mean. It’s very edgy to criticise the AFL, but to break down the system of player transfer and player payments would mean the end of our sport.

Why does it matter? Because people like you; people who make reactionary ill considered suggestions get into power nowadays and stuff things up for everybody. Because there are enough people who can only grasp a single syllable idea and then run with it.

And yes I believe you have the right to offer your opinion. I also have the right to expose its stupidity.

I've never said or implied "no trades" or "no salary cap", or that the league itself is "illogical". I just want uncontracted players to be actual free agents, because it's illogical that they are tradeable currency and are still tied to their club when their contract is over. Make contracted players more easily and readily tradeable, contract a player for a spot in the league rather than to a club, so people aren't so precious about holding a player to their contract and ownership and "compensation" when losing a player. Basically, the NBA's system on a smaller scale. Not really that mind-bending of a concept. Let the consequences play out for a couple of years before tweaking, if necessary.

 

[branedotorg]

Didn't the AFL shut this down with the Vickery deal?

They did a faux 2 year deal (to juice our compo), but when they tried to add a third year for SFA, the AFL insisted the two year deals annualized rate had to be continued.

I thought they said not that the two years rate had to be continued for the third year but the total amount over the life of the contract was the key data point - and that included the 'optional' third year at the lower value.

 

[Lsta062]

I don’t think Gold Coast should re-draft him even if that means Carlton will probably get him for free.

As painful as that would be, I don’t think having an out-of-contract player that openly does not want to be at Gold Coast like Jack Martin is good for the club’s culture. He is out of contract at the end of the day and it wasn’t his fault that Carlton and Gold Coast could not agree to trading terms. So, why punish him for it?

 

[iameviljez]

It's not just that it's a dumb move for Gold Coast, I also think it's just ethically a bit wrong.

He doesn't have a contract signed with them, he's played for six years with them, he shouldn't be held to a contract that he didn't sign.

I know it's an AFL issue rather than a Gold Coast issue, but re-drafting someone who didn't sign a new contract because they didn't want to be there leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

The suns seriously need to consider moving on tony cohchrane the guys an absolute loose cannon extremely unprofessional how he conducts himself in the media he is going to run that club further into the ground if that’s possible

 

[Clems Knee]

I've never said or implied "no trades" or "no salary cap", or that the league itself is "illogical". I just want uncontracted players to be actual free agents, because it's illogical that they are tradeable currency and are still tied to their club when their contract is over. Make contracted players more easily and readily tradeable, contract a player for a spot in the league rather than to a club, so people aren't so precious about holding a player to their contract and ownership and "compensation" when losing a player. Basically, the NBA's system on a smaller scale. Not really that mind-bending of a concept. Let the consequences play out for a couple of years before tweaking, if necessary.

Thank you for addressing the points. I’ll try to explain what I meant. I do think the implications of your suggestion are “no trades” and “no salary cap”.

From this statement: “I just want uncontracted players to be actual free agents, because it's illogical that they are tradeable currency and are still tied to their club when their contract is over.” If players refuse to sign a contract with their existing club eg. Langdon, Martin, Dangerfield, Judd etc, then they become free agents. Each of these players would then be able to walk to the club of their choice and their original club would receive no compensation. This would have a flow on effect in the way contracts are signed and the investment by clubs in players because they have no surety in their planning.

The logic in player contracts is that players are paid by a club to the end of their contract, which is October 31 (I think). It’s good that they get paid for their work and paid holiday at the end of the season. If a club releases the player, they become a delisted free agent and any club is free to pursue a new contract with them. If a club is trying to renegotiate a contract with the player, removing that tradeable currency actually removes any tradeable currency with all players approaching the end of their contract. This would inevitably remove trading as a vehicle for moving players.

“Make contracted players more easily and readily tradeable”. I think we’ve seen contracted players move more readily in the last few years. Fremantle lost B.Hill, Adelaide lost Betts, GWS lost McCarthy, Patton, Shiel. The compensation is greater for clubs losing contracted players. I would argue that that is fair and logical because of the investment and planning lost when a player wants to go.

The other part of that statement is about forcing players to trade against their will, from Melbourne to Perth for example. This happens in soccer and clubs sell players to new clubs for a tidy sum. It’s accepted because players get massively compensated, and it’s what keeps small clubs financial (but always small). Our salary cap precludes that.

So do we get rid of the salary cap to make it easier to trade players as if they were cattle? What would be the consequence of removing the salary cap? I can’t see how the NBA system on a smaller scale could work with a salary cap (or at least a salary cap where all footy clubs would be financial)

NBA, soccer have smaller numbers on their teams, and their fortunes can change massively with the addition of just one player. The NBA championships are dominated by a team for the duration of their champion player’s career. Footy isn’t like that. Of the top elite players, only Dusty has experienced a premiership. Fyfe, Dangerfield have missed out.
It’s not just that we have a smaller population base.

 

[La Dispute]

I also think that had Gold Coast accepted a future second and third, that further undermines their ability to develop players and get them performing at their optimum, and unfortunately it reiterates the gap between what was expected of Martin and what he’d actually produced in his time at the Gold Coast. If they had of received a first round, they can at least feel like they’d broken even with his development, and saved a bit of face.

Unfortunately they probably didn’t realise the implications of dropping him to the NEAFL, and the impact that would have on his trade value. They also underestimated our willingness to call it quits on the deal - it was always going to be dangerous pulling out on a deal for an uncontracted player and being left without compensation. If they wanted to send a message they’d picked the wrong circumstances to do so, as we’re now going to get an even better deal.

 

[Boxhead_31]

Jack wants to be paid more than Cripps or anyone else on the Carlton list?

Hope the kid loves pressure because the Lygon St faithful won't have much patience for him if he has struggles early

 

[La Dispute]

Jack wants to be paid more than Cripps or anyone else on the Carlton list?

Hope the kid loves pressure because the Lygon St faithful won't have much patience for him if he has struggles early

For 1 season.

Not because he believes that’s his worth, but because that’s the necessary condition (which we’ve requested) to bypass Melbourne in the pre-season draft.

So much tunnel-vision ITT.

 

[Coaster2012]

No idea why GC would redraft someone who doesn't want to be there anyway. Their culture is a rabble and they are trying to build something that can win flags, you don't start that journey by bringing in bad energy into your club. Martin is a human being after all, why would they even want to do that to him? Let him go, he's been over rated his entire career anyway.

 

[Marcel Proust]

For 1 season.

Not because he believes that’s his worth, but because that’s the necessary condition (which we’ve requested) to bypass Melbourne in the pre-season draft.

So much tunnel-vision ITT.

"it is necessary you give me one millon dollars next year"

 

[La Dispute]

"it is necessary you give me one millon dollars next year"

He didn’t come up with the figure on his own.

His manager and the club have negotiated next year’s payment which will ensure he will get past Melbourne’s PSD, and given we’ve got to guess what they can accomodate, it had to be a high figure.

It has nothing to do with Martin’s actual worth which is obvious as he was happy to sign for 600k; it’s a measure to ensure he gets to Carlton.

 

[Drewie11]

Isn't there already a Jack Martin thread on Drafts and trading? You don't want nuff nuffs saying the same thing in two different threads.

unless you are banned from that other thread then this one is a great idea. Well done Mitch

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

unless you are banned from that other thread then this one is a great idea. Well done Mitch

Lol The Suns won't want to sabotage the attempts to re-sign Luko and Rowell and Anderson by being forced to take on Martin again and his cap draining contract.

It's 100 % certain Martin ends up at Carlton, it is what it is.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Doncic is the Real deal, was wrong about Trae Young being better than him, if he doesn't start the All Star Game this year, they might as well scrap the voting system. The Euro Stud is legit

 

[Drewie11]

Lol The Suns won't want to sabotage the attempts to re-sign Luko and Rowell and Anderson by being forced to take on Martin again and his cap draining contract.

It's 100 % certain Martin ends up at Carlton, it is what it is.

Are they able to sign him and then trade him next year? Gives them money for the others then?

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Are they able to sign him and then trade him next year? Gives them money for the others then?

What other club would want to trade for Martin with the money he will be on/constructed for the next 4 years ? ThIs is why he will end up at Carlton, he would almost be an untradeable commodity if the Suns picked him up again, and they are left hanging with that big contract on their books for 5 years (when they clearly have to pay overs to retain their young guns like Ben King and Rankine)

I am sorry it had to come to this, but I sincerely believe we (Carlton) didn't lowball the Suns and tried to offer them fair/equitable trade and marker value for him.

 

[Robertio]

unless you are banned from that other thread then this one is a great idea. Well done Mitch

I'm a nice guy Drewie, never been banned from any thread.

 

[Drewie11]

I'm a nice guy Drewie, never been banned from any thread.

Change your team symbol from Carlton to any other team. I’d give it a day after that

 

[Furn2]

Clubs only have to match the years and money to pick up a player in either draft.

He'll only cost GC or the Dees 600k in 2020.