Training Pre Season - Who's deadset training the house down 2024 style.

[Donza]

We pondered the prospect of it being a weekly comp throughout the season, but we figured team selection is never more "open", and therefore unpredictable, than ahead of round 1. The consensus seems to be that there's a decent 5-6 spots at least up for grabs in the side between now and then. If we're going into any other game during the season looking at potentially 5-6 changes at least... then things aren't going as we'd hoped

Its funny though.
Maybe my memory of Horse in Rd1 over the last how many years is compromised.
However it feels as though the coaching staff do throw some curve balls into selections for Rd1 .

I might look back at every year and see.

 

[caesar88]

Its funny though.
Maybe my memory of Horse in Rd1 over the last how many years is compromised.
However it feels as though the coaching staff do throw some curve balls into selections for Rd1 .

I might look back at every year and see.

I feel like you're right, though my memory's just as bad.

Round 1 did produce the first 'bench' starting for JPK. And Hayward's first dropping. And the Papley/Mills/Hewett debut extravaganza. And the Gulden/Campbell/McDonald debut extravaganza.

(Although three of those things all came in the one game, so maybe Horse was feeling very YOLO that year.)

If I had to guess, it's probably because the opportunity to earn a round 1 berth is far longer & greater (basically three whole months over the summer), than it is during any other round.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Roberts and Gus will be locks.

Gus should be round 1

 

[Donza]

I feel like you're right, though my memory's just as bad.

Round 1 did produce the first 'bench' starting for JPK. And Hayward's first dropping. And the Papley/Mills/Hewett debut extravaganza. And the Gulden/Campbell/McDonald debut extravaganza.

(Although three of those things all came in the one game, so maybe Horse was feeling very YOLO that year.)

If I had to guess, it's probably because the opportunity to earn a round 1 berth is far longer & greater (basically three whole months over the summer), than it is during any other round.

2016 had 5 round 1 debuts.

 

[Kiama Chris]

Its funny though.
Maybe my memory of Horse in Rd1 over the last how many years is compromised.
However it feels as though the coaching staff do throw some curve balls into selections for Rd1 .

I might look back at every year and see.

Your memory is fine but circumstances have changed, not Horse. He took a risk with Papley for one. But more recently....
Starting with Errol, Logan and Braeden we NEEDED them in the team immediately. They were top quality out of a good draft. The later draftees are good but not that top level and we have filled those spots so the draftees coming through have to wait longer.
Gus and Matt and probably Kon are bashing at the door but no-one is offering them an inch. Just look at the preseason Wicks is putting in. "Over my dead body!". Love it!
Oops!

 

[Kiama Chris]

I'm looking forward to seeing how Corey W goes in the practice matches - perform well, and he could get a start or sub role for OR or Rd 1

It's great that these guys are putting in good preseasons and making the Match Committee consider them. Depth is one thing but QUALITY depth IN FORM is a whole nuther thing. I keep a little book like Rusty's spreadsheet (not as elegant!) with both what I see as Seniors and VFL teams and the VFL team is really exciting. If we have a couple of quality smaller players amongst the VFL-listed guys then ....

 

[the hypnotoad]

Yeah.
Predicting Rd 12 side would be interesting.

hard to change an unbeaten side 11 games in

 

[Kiama Chris]

Gus should be round 1

Not that he's not capable, he is, same with Roberts or Jordon. All good enough. But might not be the best in a balanced team.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Not that he's not capable, he is, same with Roberts or Jordon. All good enough. But might not be the best in a balanced team.

Should be the ruck rover in our top side. Parker has been a marvel but it’s time for Gus to take over.

 

[Wheresbuddy]

Should be the ruck rover in our top side. Parker has been a marvel but it’s time for Gus to take over.

In my opinion, Parker, Rowbottom, Adams and Chad all locked in to play on ball. I think it's down to Gus and Jordan for the last on ball spot, with Jordan's versatility (can play wing and HF) and experience to get the nod. But Gus will come into calculation with the first injury or drop in form to his more senior colleagues.

 

[Callipygian]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the traditional roles of rover and ruck-rover? The game is not played the same way now but I didn't follow the game back when these roles were more pertinent and the nuance is lost on me. While we're at it, I'd also be grateful for some clarification on the difference between a pocket and a flank. Pockets are deeper and more lockdown/less rebounding than flankers??

 

[caesar88]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the traditional roles of rover and ruck-rover? The game is not played the same way now but I didn't follow the game back when these roles were more pertinent and the nuance is lost on me. While we're at it, I'd also be grateful for some clarification on the difference between a pocket and a flank. Pockets are deeper and more lockdown/less rebounding than flankers??

I am from a post-rover/ruck-rover generation, but I do like the term rover, and think it's still relevant in today's game. There are clearly players whose job it is to read the fall of the ball. Ie. to rove.

Ruck-rover feels archaic LOL.

 

[bedford]

I am from a post-rover/ruck-rover generation, but I do like the term rover, and think it's still relevant in today's game. There are clearly players whose job it is to read the fall of the ball. Ie. to rove.

Ruck-rover feels archaic LOL.

Cripps is a ruck rover , we had one of the best in Healy , Goodes in many ways was the same , sorry probably off topic

 

[caesar88]

Cripps is a ruck rover , we had one of the best in Healy , Goodes in many ways was the same , sorry probably off topic

Not off-topic. Callipygian asked, and you'd probably know more than me re this. What is a ruck-rover and how is it different to a rover? Is it just a really tall mid?

 

[bedford]

Not off-topic. Callipygian asked, and you'd probably know more than me re this. What is a ruck-rover and how is it different to a rover? Is it just a really tall mid?

More the bigger body than a rover . An example would be in the 80's Round in the ruck , Healy ruck rover , Mitchell or Wright as rovers and Williams in the middle. Not a bad line up

 

[Dubai Quacker]

In my opinion, Parker, Rowbottom, Adams and Chad all locked in to play on ball. I think it's down to Gus and Jordan for the last on ball spot, with Jordan's versatility (can play wing and HF) and experience to get the nod. But Gus will come into calculation with the first injury or drop in form to his more senior colleagues.

In the blue corner:

A solid fringe player picked up via free agency.

In the red corner:

The young rising star midfielder who was a lock prior to injury last year.

Stop the fight - it’s over.

 

[Kiama Chris]

In the blue corner:

A solid fringe player picked up via free agency.

In the red corner:

The young rising star midfielder who was a lock prior to injury last year.

Stop the fight - it’s over.

In the third corner the 200 game AA inside mid.

 

[Wheresbuddy]

In the blue corner:

A solid fringe player picked up via free agency.

In the red corner:

The young rising star midfielder who was a lock prior to injury last year.

Stop the fight - it’s over.

I don't mind either way. Both will play a part in our season and obviously want them both to do well.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

In my opinion, Parker, Rowbottom, Adams and Chad all locked in to play on ball. I think it's down to Gus and Jordan for the last on ball spot, with Jordan's versatility (can play wing and HF) and experience to get the nod. But Gus will come into calculation with the first injury or drop in form to his more senior colleagues.

See I wouldn’t play Parker near the midfield, he can be a forward who does mid stoppages up there. Sheldrick in Parker’s mid position

 

[sthmelb_dimmies]

B: Cunningham, McCartin, Rampe
HB Lloyd, Hamling, Blakey
M: Gulden, Ch Warner, Campbell
HF: Heeney, McDonald, Haywood
F: Amartey, McLean, Papley
R: Grundy, Adams, Rowbottom
Iner: Parker, Jordon, McInerney, Florent
Sub: Wicks

Sheldrick is the unlucky one here. I would have loved to squeeze him in, but for who?

That’s a TALL forward line

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

The structure and composition of mids and fwds obviously intersect.

Forwards

• It seems probable Horse will still want three kpf. One big issue is whether 2 specialist smalls and 2 specialist mediums are retained.
• None of the talls are experienced and will need some leadership. For me it is a no brainer that Parker spends a lot more time up forward in a ’Fixed Position’. He is smart and a great set shot. I reckon he will spend up to 70% of his tog there and help ensure we keep our shape. He would also attend stoppages in our forward half I reckon Gus, Adams, Erol Campbell, will fill in the rest of the time in that position.
• So Parker is a small and some may reasonaly argue he takes Wicks position. Whoa! We need Wicks as a pressure small to help ensure Oppo defenders do not waltz the ball out, esp as there will be many times when all three of our big forwards are on the ground at the same time. I reckon Sam will have a breakout year and will kick a heap more goals. Papley is our most important forward and is another small.
• Heeney is the 7th specialist forward in the rotation. Back up is obviously Hayward and Fox.
• Structure - 3 KPF, 3 smalls and 1 medium, a departure from our primary structure.
• others will be rotated through the forwards. Hopefully they will be our more accurate kicks.

Mids

• The advent of a Grundy who should win the majority of ruck contests (needs to be only a small margin) and is a beast on the ground changes things up. For example, apparently* in 2023 we played a next to pure defensive mid who was sometime of a stoppage specialist (but not used so much in offensive transition).
• With a highly competent ruck, do we need Rowy or anyone else for that matter playing a predominately defensive role? I reckon that role as a pure defensive mid goes the way of the dinosaur.
• And the role is replaced and filled with player(s) who can read ruck contests, get first possession and use it well.
• Parker and Rowy played predominately as inside mids with Gulden and Chad being hybrid in and outsides.
• Paps seemed to be effective roving to a losing ruck when he was there but like Heeney I want to see Tommy up forward, creating and snagging goals.
• Gus over the first 10 meters is imo quicker than Parker, Rowy, Adams and Gulden (EGs anticipation makes him seem quicker than he is) but probably not Chad. He has a real ability to read ruck contests, win possession and use it and to apply pressure when he doesn’t have the ball.
• Fixing our chronic midfield woes commences with a more than decent ruck, setting up to take advantage through different roles and using the personnel we have.
• I am not in the C88 Rowbottom is a star camp. Unless you take tackling as the most important metric in what was a lacklustre group of mids that could not win enough clearances and believe this is crucial going forward I cannot help you, but hey you are welcome to your view.
• For mine Rowy requires a different role than tackling bags. Sure he must keep the pressure up but he must also win possessions at stoppages and use these effectively. To keep getting games, like all other mids he must be a factor in offensive as well as defensive transition.

I am not one to live and die by the data and prefer the old eye test and then check the data to see if it makes sense. Our midfield in 2023 was routinely beaten and sometimes flogged at CBs and other stoppages. Don’t think it was just the ruck, but also the set ups, roles and the players in there. With Grundy, Adams and the emergence of Sheldrick we have a chance to up our clearance work and be a clear contender for the 8 and higher honours.

Sorry it is much longer than I intended and if you got bored or irritated no probs if you skipped.

 

[McRobie]

It is on Kayo so I imagine it would be on the AFL international pass.

Ah sweet thanks mate.

 

[Callipygian]

The structure and composition of mids and fwds obviously intersect.

Forwards

• It seems probable Horse will still want three kpf. One big issue is whether 2 specialist smalls and 2 specialist mediums are retained.
• None of the talls are experienced and will need some leadership. For me it is a no brainer that Parker spends a lot more time up forward in a ’Fixed Position’. He is smart and a great set shot. I reckon he will spend up to 70% of his tog there and help ensure we keep our shape. He would also attend stoppages in our forward half I reckon Gus, Adams, Erol Campbell, will fill in the rest of the time in that position.
• So Parker is a small and some may reasonaly argue he takes Wicks position. Whoa! We need Wicks as a pressure small to help ensure Oppo defenders do not waltz the ball out, esp as there will be many times when all three of our big forwards are on the ground at the same time. I reckon Sam will have a breakout year and will kick a heap more goals. Papley is our most important forward and is another small.
• Heeney is the 7th specialist forward in the rotation. Back up is obviously Hayward and Fox.
• Structure - 3 KPF, 3 smalls and 1 medium, a departure from our primary structure.
• others will be rotated through the forwards. Hopefully they will be our more accurate kicks.

Mids

• The advent of a Grundy who should win the majority of ruck contests (needs to be only a small margin) and is a beast on the ground changes things up. For example, apparently* in 2023 we played a next to pure defensive mid who was sometime of a stoppage specialist (but not used so much in offensive transition).
• With a highly competent ruck, do we need Rowy or anyone else for that matter playing a predominately defensive role? I reckon that role as a pure defensive mid goes the way of the dinosaur.
• And the role is replaced and filled with player(s) who can read ruck contests, get first possession and use it well.
• Parker and Rowy played predominately as inside mids with Gulden and Chad being hybrid in and outsides.
• Paps seemed to be effective roving to a losing ruck when he was there but like Heeney I want to see Tommy up forward, creating and snagging goals.
• Gus over the first 10 meters is imo quicker than Parker, Rowy, Adams and Gulden (EGs anticipation makes him seem quicker than he is) but probably not Chad. He has a real ability to read ruck contests, win possession and use it and to apply pressure when he doesn’t have the ball.
• Fixing our chronic midfield woes commences with a more than decent ruck, setting up to take advantage through different roles and using the personnel we have.
• I am not in the C88 Rowbottom is a star camp. Unless you take tackling as the most important metric in what was a lacklustre group of mids that could not win enough clearances and believe this is crucial going forward I cannot help you, but hey you are welcome to your view.
• For mine Rowy requires a different role than tackling bags. Sure he must keep the pressure up but he must also win possessions at stoppages and use these effectively. To keep getting games, like all other mids he must be a factor in offensive as well as defensive transition.

I am not one to live and die by the data and prefer the old eye test and then check the data to see if it makes sense. Our midfield in 2023 was routinely beaten and sometimes flogged at CBs and other stoppages. Don’t think it was just the ruck, but also the set ups, roles and the players in there. With Grundy, Adams and the emergence of Sheldrick we have a chance to up our clearance work and be a clear contender for the 8 and higher honours.

Sorry it is much longer than I intended and if you got bored or irritated no probs if you skipped.

Good post. But a fair number of points where I differ.

Parker is no Wicks (as I think you agree) and I don't think it is a no brainer that Parker spends a lot more time forward in a fixed position. I think the two best chances to squeeze Parker into the forward rotation are (a) would be to play one less tall, which I think mostly won't happen; or (b) have him replace Hayward, which I also don't think will happen. In addition to other reasons, I'm not sure it would be wise to have an elder player at the back end of his career replace a player in his prime unless the player was a significant upgrade and I don't think Parker would be.

I don't think Parker is better than any of Heeney, Papley, Hayward or Wicks in that role but he is most similar to Hayward. He is possibly a more reliable goal goal kicker than Hayward and can mark just about as well but is slower and less agile and can't apply the same level of pressure.

I don't agree that we lack leadership forward. Last year I was struck by how disproportionately our leadership group was focused in our front half: all of Papley, Hayward and possibly Heeney were in the leadership group. True Buddy has left but I don't think that means we need Parker there for leadership.

Turning to the midfield, I don't agree that Rowy is a "next to pure defensive mid" (and I'm not sure if Caesar says that either). Obviously Rowy is outstanding defensively and that is the strongest part of his game but that is by no means his only talent. I would think he gains similar metreage each game to a player like Parker and uses the ball no worse. [I just checked the stats for last year and Rowy gained a few more metres (5th v 7th out of midfielders) but he didn't use the ball as efficiently (63% v 69%). That difference in efficiency reflects the fact that Rowy doesn't get a lot of uncontested ball and is nearly always under a lot of pressure when he uses the ball. Parker had nearly 5 more uncontested possessions per game last year] Rowy isn't quite as good a goalkicker as Parker but he is perfectly capable of kicking goals - on the run and from set shots - and he can roost the ball a fair way. (Do you remember that goal he scored in the ressies from 70+ metres out a few years back?)

Also, I don't agree that winning the hitouts will mean defensive pressure becomes less important. Swans gamestyle is all about pressure - I think we value it more than just about anything else and have done for at least as long as Horse has been coach but it was also a hallmark of our game in 2005/2006. Pressure footy is also footy that stands up in finals. Rowy applies pressure to the opposition better than any other player in our midfield. Parker is good, I reckon Sheldrick will be good, Mills is good but none are better than Rowy at this facet of the game.

Therefore I don't agree that the need for the type of role Rowy has been playing becomes obsolete. At most he gets to play a bit more offensively but I'll beleive it when I see it. In no way do I see Rowbottom slipping out of our side and, despite what happened with Hewett, I don't think a young player who has consecutive top 3 finishes in the B&F is about to make way for a rising star.

Rowy is clearly in our top 10 players and is young. The only reason I can imagine us letting him go is because he is an easier type of player to replace than a key position or an out and out star like Errol or Chad. And as promising as Sheldrick and Roberts and Cleary are, you can't say that any of them are better than Rowy (certainly not at this stage) and we want to have depth in this position and those players can provide that as Parker and Adams move on.

I don't understand enough about the intricacies of midfield structures etc to know what we can do better there but obviously I'm keen that we improve in that area. And you know what? So are the coaches and the club and I reckon they're all over it.

 

[Dan87]

You can't play Parker full time forward. You'll just rebound through his man all day. Would be an obvious instruction

 

[Millky95]

You can't play Parker full time forward. You'll just rebound through his man all day

Parker is a tough match up in the air for most small/medium defenders. He is the guy you kick goals through when defenders are more focused on someone else