Quarter of a century without Fitzroy: Is the AFL better or worse off?

[pz5151]

Yeah but doesn’t the AFL’s Marvel contract * all of that up? They have some arrangement to play a minimum X number of games there a year. They’d never let the Saints play at Moorabbin.

The AFL should be able to rip that contract up. It’s a contract between the owners of the stadium (the AFL) and the league (the AFL).

 

[Roylion]

You'd know better than me, but wasn't it big spending in the late 1970s that started their problems?

Their problems started with Fitzroy having to leave the Brunswick Street Oval

Fitzroy Football Club left Brunswick Street Oval in 1966 because the ground facilities became unfit for VFL football and it had no power to fix said facilities.

Unfortunately it was the Fitzroy Cricket Club that controlled the ground...not the Football Club. While the local council refused to spend any money on the ground, the far wealthier Fitzroy Cricket Club also refused to spend any money.

Fitzroy Football Club paid the Fitzroy Cricket Club to use the ground and about a thousand cricket club members got into the ground for free every weekend in the football season to watch Fitzroy Football Club.

The football club proposed a number of initiatives to try and stay at the BSO which obviously was their heartland. They suggested that the Fitzroy Cricket Club and the Fitzroy Football Club form one club, which the cricket club rejected. (this happened at Carlton). An offer by Fitzroy Football Club to borrow $400,000 from the Fitzroy council to upgrade the ground was also rejected by the Cricket Club. The football club also wanted a forty year lease which was opposed by the Council, although the council had agreed to give them a 21 year lease with no funds for subsequent improvement, which the football club found unacceptable, given that the Cricket Club still controlled the ground.

Meanwhile of course prospective VFL players didn’t want to play for Fitzroy because of the poor facilities and often went to neighbouring clubs Carlton and Collingwood because of their better facilities and ground arrangements, and according to Billy Stephens, Carlton's and Collingwood's better ability to find them jobs from industry and other places located in their larger geographical area. Note that when Fitzroy was on or close to the bottom of the ladder in 1963-66, this co-incided with the worst disrepair of Brunswick Street in its history.

After the Brunswick Street football rooms were finally condemned by the local council health officer, which made them unusable, Fitzroy Football Club made a number of approaches to share grounds with Northcote and Preston in the VFA. But these came to nothing.

Fitzroy would have moved to the Junction Oval for the 1967 season where the St Kilda Cricket Club wanted them as a tenant, but a large number of St Kilda Cricket Club members and supporters opposed the move and it was quashed. Fitzroy instead had no choice but to go to Princes Park instead for the 1967, 1968 and 1969 seasons, when it finally negotiated a successful move to the Junction Oval for the 1970 season.

Interestingly in 1969 when the Fitzroy City Council heard that Fitzroy were set to leave Princes Park, they made an approach to the Fitzroy to return to the Brunswick Street Oval. Fitzroy Football Club agreed to return if ground works, including extensive improvements to the outer were carried out and new player rooms and public toilets were built. Unfortunately no agreement could be reached between the Council, the Cricket Club and the Football Club over what ground improvements were needed.

Fitzroy eventually moved to the Junction Oval from Princes Park because they were essentially the poor relation in the Princes Park arrangement. At the Junction Oval Fitzroy got a third of the car-parking money for the first ten years and received non-repayable loan from the Albert Park Trust to spend on the Junction Oval to upgrade it to a VFL standard ground. The Junction Oval had a great surface, and a great Fitzroy atmosphere for home games. Certainly it became a very Fitzroy home ground and Fitzroy became well entrenched in the fourteen seasons they spent there.

At the Junction Oval there was a real sense of Fitzroy community, even though it was in St Kilda. It was our ground, one we shared with no-one else. It was a superb ground to play on, especially after the mud-heap of Brunswick Oval. I never actually saw a VFL match at the Brunswick Oval, but there are plenty of stories of how much of a mud-slog it was. Standing in front of the Kevin Murray Stand at the Junction Oval surrounded by thousands of Fitzroy people at a game was a fantastic experience. One that was certainly not replicated at Victoria Park and Princes Park. Fitzroy players such as Paul Roos concur.

By 1984 the VFL was instigating ground rationalisation where clubs had to either share a ground or be solely entrenched at their ground if the facilities were good enough. League policy was that clubs either had to share grounds so that costs and money would be shared more evenly. Richmond went from Punt Road to the MCG, North went from Arden Street to the MCG. Hawthorn and St Kilda went to Waverley. Essendon also had to leave Windy Hill. Fitzroy were forced to leave the Junction Oval because it was considered by the VFL that the facilities were not good enough - for example not enough seating for patrons.

Fitzroy argued unsuccessfully that their facilties were good enough. Paul Roos in retrospect considers that Fitzroy being forced to leave the Junction Oval hurt Fitzroy's identity, as well hurt the club financially and was the beginning of the end. Fitzroy decided to go to Victoria Park for the next two seasons because the ground was in Fitzroy's geographical area, as was Princes Park from '87-'93. Neither move was financially beneficial, but as Fitzroy had been refused a move to Waverley and the MCG had enough clubs, it was all that was on offer.

In the case of Victoria Park (1985, 1986) and Princes Park (1987-1993), Fitzroy made little to no money from either ground. Carlton's screwing of Fitzroy in relation to Fitzroy's tenancy of Princes Park from 1987-1993, forced the club to look for a better ground deal, despite the opposition of Fitzroy players and fans, who would have preferred to stay at Princes Park. Carlton even sent Fitzroy a bill in 1992 for the use of Princes Park, which meant that Fitzroy had made no money whatsoever from the use of its home ground that year.

Not only that, in 1992-3 in terms of ground rationalisation, Hawthorn was assisted with its' move to Waverley by the AFL agreeing to play 22 games per year at Princes Park per year, regardless of whether Fitzroy played there or not.

This decision had three effects:
1) Carlton benefited because they didn't have to enter into any tenancy agreement with any club, because the AFL was going to schedule matches there anyway.
2) Hawthorn benefited because they moved their home ground to the population centre of Melbourne along with the Saints.
3) Fitzroy, which was in the throes of attempting to negotiate a better deal with Carlton (i.e. Ian Collins) for their next tenancy agreement, was left with no bargaining power. In 1993 they played at Princes Park without a tenancy agreement with Carlton, after making no money the year before from home ground revenue.

Apart from Carlton, the catalyst for Fitzroy moving to the Western Oval is that the AFL also threatened to sue Fitzroy for $250,000 that had been paid to Fitzroy by CUB as part of a club sponsorship, which included selling CUB's product in the Fitzroy Club Hotel. CUB was the AFL's sponsor and the AFL thought they should have received the money instead of Fitzroy. This was despite the fact that CUB had been a minor sponsor of Fitzroy for over ten years previously.

The AFL even threatened to reduce the dividend to other clubs by the amount Fitzroy received. As such the Lions had to consider a better financial deal at the Western Oval, which in turn alienated some supporters and players. That included Footscray loaning Fitzroy the $250,000 demanded by the AFL. Alistair Lynch later said that Fitzroy's forced move to the Western Oval was the major reason why he decided to leave Fitzroy and sign with the Bears. Broderick, Gale, Elliott and Dundas followed Lynch shortly after. Robert Shaw the Fitzroy coach lamented at the time that he'd just lost his next three club captains. Fitzroy fans generally disliked the Western Oval as much of the Fitzroy support base was the inner city and their former recruiting zone in the eastern suburbs centered around Bulleen-Doncaster.

In the mid-nineties, Fitzroy was actually planning a return to the Brunswick Street Oval as their training and admin base. This had been approved by the Fitzroy Council and the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, but needed $250,000 to removate the Grandstand and build a modern gym over the community rooms.

 

[Freomaniac]

Worse off, Carlton were in a far worse spot in the 00s and managed to stay in the comp. I suppose it helps when the commission was run by ex Carlton players

Carlton were 8-10 million in debt in the 2000s period when they won the wooden spoons too.

fortunately for them, they won been success 16 premierships and had a loyal supporter base because of it

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Their problems started with Fitzroy having to leave the Brunswick Street Oval

Fitzroy Football Club left Brunswick Street Oval in 1966 because the ground facilities became unfit for VFL football and it had no power to fix said facilities.

Unfortunately it was the Fitzroy Cricket Club that controlled the ground...not the Football Club. While the local council refused to spend any money on the ground, the far wealthier Fitzroy Cricket Club also refused to spend any money.

Fitzroy Football Club paid the Fitzroy Cricket Club to use the ground and about a thousand cricket club members got into the ground for free every weekend in the football season to watch Fitzroy Football Club.

The football club proposed a number of initiatives to try and stay at the BSO which obviously was their heartland. They suggested that the Fitzroy Cricket Club and the Fitzroy Football Club form one club, which the cricket club rejected. (this happened at Carlton). An offer by Fitzroy Football Club to borrow $400,000 from the Fitzroy council to upgrade the ground was also rejected by the Cricket Club. The football club also wanted a forty year lease which was opposed by the Council, although the council had agreed to give them a 21 year lease with no funds for subsequent improvement, which the football club found unacceptable, given that the Cricket Club still controlled the ground.

I can't recall the timeframe (I think it was much earlier in the 20th Century) but Collingwood had a similar issue with its cricket club including the cricket club members being granted free entry to Collingwood games and the reserved seating/social club area at Vic Park. The football club ultimately were able to get things their way by having football people in important positions on the Council and the Council appointed trust for Vic Park. It's detailed in the book Kill For Collingwood which is a fantastic read if you love the history of the game.

Do you know of a particular book that documents the Fitzroy history above? I've tried to get Dyson Hore-Lacy's book to no avail but not sure it would cover this much historical detail of the FFC.

Agree with your later comments that the move to the Western Oval really was the death knell of Fitzroy. With players leaving and fans not attending as it wasn't in the same geographic location the crowds dwindled and the club was able to offer little resistance to the AFLs bastardry.

 

[Alex09]

As a Brisbane supporter I was bitterly disappointed when it was announced we had to merge with Fitzroy. We were on fire, finals last 2 seasons, heading to the prelim in '96. The team was absolutely packed with up and coming stars and crowds were filling the Gabba at this point for the first time. I couldn't understand why Brisbane had to merge with what was then a total basket-case in a different state. That being said I got use to it pretty quickly and really love the way the club celebrates it's Fitzroy heritage now. They have done a real good job of bringing it all together. I see an old Fitzroy game it feels like that is my team that I have always supported.

 

[Shagga is all Class]

Worse off.

I shook my head when I watched the Giants on Kayo in Rd 1, and then found out the crowd was 7,012 which did not surprise me.

I then looked up the Western oval 1996 Rd 1 and Fitzroy got 10,239 to a rubbish ground were you had to stand on the gravel and drink Melbourne Bitter.

The moral of the story is the AFL sunk $200M into the the Giants, compromised drafts and their stadium. This really isn't any different to the Suns, Bears and the Swans and Cola and academies, father sons and every other rort the AFL come up with to benefit certain interstate clubs.

Tassie will probably be no different, but at least I hope they succeed, unlike some of these other plastic clubs in non footy states.

The AFL have all the time in the world for their plastic fantastic clubs, but Fitzroy, who cares about the first team to win a GF and then go back to back?

 

[Roylion]

Do you know of a particular book that documents the Fitzroy history above? I've tried to get Dyson Hore-Lacy's book to no avail but not sure it would cover this much historical detail of the FFC.

I have plenty of Fitzroy books about Fitzroy's history.

In no particular order here are the ones I own.

Fitzroy, Dyson Hore-Lacy, 2000
Merger, William Westerland, 2021
The Death of Fitzroy Football Club, Russell Holmesby, 2020
The Other Side of Smith Street (Fitzroy v Collingwood down the Years), Marc Fiddian, 2010
Alistair Lynch, Alistair Lynch with Peter Blucher, 2005
Roar of the Lions, Chris Lang, Garrie Hutchison, John Ross, 1997
Fitzroy: For the Love of the Jumper Chris Donald, 2002
Forever Fitzroy: A History of the Brunswick Street Oval, Marc Fiddian, 2004
Kevin Murray: Heart of a Lion, Chris Donald, 2005
Maroon and Blue, Adam Muyt, 2006
The First One Hundred Seasons 1883-1983, Mike Sutherland, Rod Nicholson, Stewart Murray, 1983
Paul Roos: Beyond 300, Paul Roos, 1997
Miracle Match: The Day David Downed Goliath (Brunswick Street July 6th 1963), Ken Piesse 2014
Fitzroy, Jim Main, 2007

 

[footyfan1978]

Worse off.

I shook my head when I watched the Giants on Kayo in Rd 1, and then found out the crowd was 7,012 which did not surprise me.

I then looked up the Western oval 1996 Rd 1 and Fitzroy got 10,239 to a rubbish ground were you had to stand on the gravel and drink Melbourne Bitter.

The moral of the story is the AFL sunk $200M into the the Giants, compromised drafts and their stadium. This really isn't any different to the Suns, Bears and the Swans and Cola and academies, father sons and every other rort the AFL come up with to benefit certain interstate clubs.

Tassie will probably be no different, but at least I hope they succeed, unlike some of these other plastic clubs in non footy states.

The AFL have all the time in the world for their plastic fantastic clubs, but Fitzroy, who cares about the first team to win a GF and then go back to back?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but in retrospect Fitzroy relocating somewhere North whether NSW, ACT or Queensland in 1986 or 87 may have meant one less franchise manufactured club but like South Melbourne would have lost their name but still been in the league with continuity of club history as Swans still do. Whether it be Western Sydney, Canberra, Sunshine Coast or Southport it still would have been a bumpy ride like Swans experienced in early to mid 90's

 

[Coolangatta]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but in retrospect Fitzroy relocating somewhere North whether NSW, ACT or Queensland in 1986 or 87 may have meant one less franchise manufactured club but like South Melbourne would have lost their name but still been in the league with continuity of club history as Swans still do. Whether it be Western Sydney, Canberra, Sunshine Coast or Southport it still would have been a bumpy ride like Swans experienced in early to mid 90's

So the difference between South and Fitzroy is that South relocated but Fitzroy didn’t? I’m sure South fans didn’t take it very well even if they do still exist in the AFL.

 

[footyfan1978]

So the difference between South and Fitzroy is that South relocated but Fitzroy didn’t?

No.

 

[Roylion]

So the difference between South and Fitzroy is that South relocated but Fitzroy didn’t? I’m sure South fans didn’t take it very well even if they do still exist in the AFL.

Fitzroy definitely did not relocate. Fitzroy’s directors took the view that a club in Melbourne with some Fitzroy identity even as a merger was better for supporters who could watch their team far more than 5-6 times a year.

 

[im_a_lazy_sod]

The AFL leans so heavily on things like tradition and history, yet don't really acknowledge the worst parts of the league's own history. And then on the flip side, they are trying to grow and expand the game and league. They should just stick - or should have just stuck - to one route, rather than half-arsing acknowledging history/tradition and half-arsing growing the game.

 

[Ceehook]

The first team Carlton played in the VFL was the Lions. Our first grand final appearance was against them, and we beat them to win our first VFL premiership as well.

Then you had David Parkin, Robert Walls and Rod Austin coaching there in the 80's. I suppose Fitzroys problems started, when they had to leave the Brunswick Street Oval their original home ground.

Geez BlueBagger , showing you're age to remember that

 

[footyfan1978]

The AFL leans so heavily on things like tradition and history, yet don't really acknowledge the worst parts of the league's own history. And then on the flip side, they are trying to grow and expand the game and league. They should just stick - or should have just stuck - to one route, rather than half-arsing acknowledging history/tradition and half-arsing growing the game.

Worst part of history is killing off the VFA.

 

[Woolly Mammoth]

The AFL leans so heavily on things like tradition and history, yet don't really acknowledge the worst parts of the league's own history. And then on the flip side, they are trying to grow and expand the game and league. They should just stick - or should have just stuck - to one route, rather than half-arsing acknowledging history/tradition and half-arsing growing the game.

The "half-arsing acknowledging history/tradition and half-arsing growing the game" only really applies to the Swans and Brisbane and the attempt to relocate North which was so lazily and poorly done it was more like quarter-arsed, but realistically the league couldn't afford (or didn't want to try to afford) to fund a start up Sydney team from scratch in 1982, but having dollar signs in their eyes relocating a club was the easy way to get presence in the big business/broadcasting hub of the country without having to put their money where their mouth is and concentrate on the cost of promotion instead of the cost of starting a brand new team, and alot of people think the Brisbane merger was a complete misstep, hence this ongoing thread, but a big part of why AFL house went ahead with it is it papered over the cracks of their horrendous mishandling of the original Bears venture, as the majority of Vic club presidents were dead against giving the northern state teams too much money the merger basically allowed the league to spend money on the Bears who were in bad shape off the field and ran the risk of struggling to capitalise on rising form on the field.

TL;DR- the acknowledging tradition is definitely half-arsed, but attempts to grow the game,even when they've made mistakes, have been mostly whole-arsed

 

[BomberManU]

Worse off.

I shook my head when I watched the Giants on Kayo in Rd 1, and then found out the crowd was 7,012 which did not surprise me.

I then looked up the Western oval 1996 Rd 1 and Fitzroy got 10,239 to a rubbish ground were you had to stand on the gravel and drink Melbourne Bitter.

The moral of the story is the AFL sunk $200M into the the Giants, compromised drafts and their stadium. This really isn't any different to the Suns, Bears and the Swans and Cola and academies, father sons and every other rort the AFL come up with to benefit certain interstate clubs.

Tassie will probably be no different, but at least I hope they succeed, unlike some of these other plastic clubs in non footy states.

The AFL have all the time in the world for their plastic fantastic clubs, but Fitzroy, who cares about the first team to win a GF and then go back to back?

Was also shocked when I tuned into the GWS game. What are they, 10 years in? New coach, Rd. 1, still some serious talent on their list and only 7,000 show up.
7,000 looked generous, as well.

 

[im_a_lazy_sod]

The "half-arsing acknowledging history/tradition and half-arsing growing the game" only really applies to the Swans and Brisbane and the attempt to relocate North which was so lazily and poorly done it was more like quarter-arsed, but realistically the league couldn't afford (or didn't want to try to afford) to fund a start up Sydney team from scratch in 1982, but having dollar signs in their eyes relocating a club was the easy way to get presence in the big business/broadcasting hub of the country without having to put their money where their mouth is and concentrate on the cost of promotion instead of the cost of starting a brand new team, and alot of people think the Brisbane merger was a complete misstep, hence this ongoing thread, but a big part of why AFL house went ahead with it is it papered over the cracks of their horrendous mishandling of the original Bears venture, as the majority of Vic club presidents were dead against giving the northern state teams too much money the merger basically allowed the league to spend money on the Bears who were in bad shape off the field and ran the risk of struggling to capitalise on rising form on the field.

TL;DR- the acknowledging tradition is definitely half-arsed, but attempts to grow the game,even when they've made mistakes, have been mostly whole-arsed

I don't think it's been whole-arsed for expansion/growing the game. They have focussed too much on non-traditional footy states to compete with other pre-existing leagues of other codes, where they should have expanded in to places where there is little or no competition and there is a footy culture there.

 

[Freomaniac]

Was also shocked when I tuned into the GWS game. What are they, 10 years in? New coach, Rd. 1, still some serious talent on their list and only 7,000 show up.
7,000 looked generous, as well.

Well it's Western NSW. Like the Sydney Swans, it is going to take a generation to grow the fan base.

Look at the Sydney Swans fan base. It wasn't big in 1982. Yeah you got the bandwagon fans when the swans made finals in 1986-7.

Then only the hardcore fans rocked up in that horrible period of 1991-94.

Then the bandwagon fans came back in 1996 when they made a grand final

 

[BomberManU]

Well it's Western NSW. Like the Sydney Swans, it is going to take a generation to grow the fan base.

Look at the Sydney Swans fan base. It wasn't big in 1982. Yeah you got the bandwagon fans when the swans made finals in 1986-7.

Then only the hardcore fans rocked up in that horrible period of 1991-94.

Then the bandwagon fans came back in 1996 when they made a grand final

Just looked up the Swans 'average attendance', over the years and it's about what I'd expect. Like you say, some lean years early 90's, then very consistent. I just don't know where the GWS supporter base is going to come from, I don't really buy the whole 'it will take a generation' theory. I fully expect the crowds/member numbers to be about the same as they are currently.
And, I dearly miss Fitzroy, by far my 'second team' and one that I enjoyed watching back in the day. Had a few family members that supported them as well.

 

[Macca19]

Plus Sydney have barely had a down patch for 25 years now which has certainly helped rust on a whole lot of supporters

 

[jarrod_island_doggies]

Was also shocked when I tuned into the GWS game. What are they, 10 years in? New coach, Rd. 1, still some serious talent on their list and only 7,000 show up.
7,000 looked generous, as well.

Lol, they were packed into the shaded side; temp was mid-high 30s.

Doubt you'd get that many more rock up elsewhere in those conditions

 

[LordLucifer]

Was also shocked when I tuned into the GWS game. What are they, 10 years in? New coach, Rd. 1, still some serious talent on their list and only 7,000 show up.
7,000 looked generous, as well.

It was stinking hot up here (38 degrees), I pulled out of an event on Sunday due to the heat, I don't blame the fans for not wanting to sit in the sun.

 

[footyfan1978]

Soft Lucifer... Soft...

 

[MSB ROYS]

It was stinking hot up here (38 degrees), I pulled out of an event on Sunday due to the heat, I don't blame the fans for not wanting to sit in the sun.

Must have been hell.

 

[Freomaniac]

Just looked up the Swans 'average attendance', over the years and it's about what I'd expect. Like you say, some lean years early 90's, then very consistent. I just don't know where the GWS supporter base is going to come from, I don't really buy the whole 'it will take a generation' theory. I fully expect the crowds/member numbers to be about the same as they are currently.
And, I dearly miss Fitzroy, by far my 'second team' and one that I enjoyed watching back in the day. Had a few family members that supported them as well.

Well... Another good Example would be Brisbanes early years too.

Look at the Brisbane teams early years. Crowds were horrible from the early years from 1987-1993.

Crowds slowly increased in 1994 when they were finals contenders. Then in 1996 when they made top 4, they got some sell out games at home.

I definately remember those years when they won those grand final years from 2001-4, The Gabbas Capacity was around 37,500. It was constantly sold out.

Plus Sydney have barely had a down patch for 25 years now which has certainly helped rust on a whole lot of supporters

Yeah It helps when the Swans had constant success from 1996 onwards to 2022. They have made finals regularly. Made finals in 1996-1999, 2001, 2002-08, 2010-18, 2021-22.

So on the other hand missed out on finals in 2000, 2002, 2009, 2019-20.

Crazy to think that they made a grand final in 1945, Which was also their last finals win as South Melbourne. Their next finals win was until they made a grand final in 1996. Yep, its crazy the swans went from 1945-1996, thats 51 years in a row of no finals wins.

Making Grand finals in 1996, 2005, 2006, 2012, 2014, 2016 and 2022 helps too.