Quarter of a century without Fitzroy: Is the AFL better or worse off?

[yodellinhank]

That's why Fitzroy sought mergers with Victorian clubs such as:
...

• North Melbourne (North Fitzroy Kangaroos - 1996). Foiled by the AFL whose preference was boosting the Brisbane Bears with $6 million and players.

Fitzroy wanted their supporters to be able to watch football in Melbourne with some vestige of Fitzroy in that new club. In the end, to do that, the Club exited the AFL competition.

Come come Mr Bondborough, we've been over this. It was voted on by the clubs and North foiled that vote getting up. The AFL did not stand in the way.

 

[Roylion]

It was voted on by the clubs and North foiled that vote getting up.

THE AFL commission decided. The AFL clubs merely confirmed their decision, after the Commission made a decision between a North that had matched a Brisbane's offer in terms of 'merger' concessions.

After the AFL clubs had rejected the initial Fitzroy - North Melbourne merger proposal in a straw poll at their preparatory meeting which began at 3 pm on the 4th July at Punt Road and held to debate the issue as to whether Fitzroy should merge with North Melbourne on the basis of a 54 player list.

It was Andrew Plympton of St Kilda who suggested that who Fitzroy merged with should be sorted out between the AFL commission and Fitzroy's administrator in a continuation of the AFL commission meeting which had commenced at 4 pm at the MCG.

This concluded the initial preparatory meeting at 4.45 pm. The AFL commission meeting was adjouned while one represenative from each club made their way across to the MCG. It reconvened at 5.10 pm

During the hour long AFL Commission meeting that took place afterward at AFL headquarters at the MCG, North kept making concessions and watering down their requirements and upping their financial offer to pay creditors.

After the decision was made, the North Melbourne contingent was called into the AFL boardroom to hear the verdict from the AFL Commissioners. They certainly by this stage had not pulled out of the race.

Ron Casey asked why they had gone with Brisbane after the AFL commission decision had been made. John Kennedy said "For strategic reasons, Ron."

A General Meeting of AFL presidents took place immediately after the AFL commission meeting at 6.20 pm. John Kennedy informed them that the meeting had been originally called to veto the original North Melbourne merger proposal but given that North had watered down their proposal that was moot. The meeting was declared closed in five minutes and the clubs informed that the AFL Commission has recommended a Brisbane - Fitzroy merger (Ross Oakley termed it a 'corporate takeover' at the subsequent press conference). The clubs were given the opportunity to veto the Commission decision. None did.

A press conference was held immediately after. No Fitzroy director or representative (apart from the administrator) was at that press conference.

Shortly after 9.30 pm Noel Gordon appeared on the Footy show.

The AFL did not stand in the way.

The AFL actively worked against the Fitzroy-North Melbourne merger in favour for a Brisbane decision where they could award the AFL owned IP of Fitzroy to the Brisbane Bears. They did so and it was comfirmed by the clubs. That much is clear.

 

[yodellinhank]

THE AFL commission decided. The AFL clubs merely confirmed their decision, after the Commission made a decision between a North that had matched a Brisbane's offer in terms of 'merger' concessions.


The AFL actively worked against the Fitzroy-North Melbourne merger in favour for a Brisbane decision where they could award the AFL owned IP of Fitzroy to the Brisbane Bears. They did so and it was comfirmed by the clubs. That much is clear.

The North proposal was put to the clubs, who voted it down. If that vote had've got up, there would be no brisbane lions.

 

[Roylion]

The North proposal was put to the clubs, who voted it down.

I've explained the exact process above. Two meetings of the presidents took place.

If that vote had've got up, there would be no brisbane lions.

Well...yeah. The current AFL club would still be called the Brisbane Bears.

 

[Boppo]

First the footy club and then the Punters Club. Harsh times.

 

[Toump Ass]

A couple of hours later a nice and tipsy Noel Gordon appeared on the Footy show.

Fixed.

Edit: That was some classy stuff from Mr. Gordon

 

[footyfan1978]

I was in Queensland at the time and got the impression the Bears members had pretty much no say in it at all.
I remember a meeting was called where supporters were told what was happening and the new jumper was presented, it was on the news which was rare to see much AFL news on tv at the time.
There was little enthusiasm from the crowd in attendance, but they just had to accept it and adjust.

That is ****ed up. Noel Gordon is an absolute prick the way he carried on in those terms with no real thought to how Bears or Fitzroy fans thought.
Thanks for some insight into the local Brisbane news at the time. Really hard to find much on this from back then

 

[footyfan1978]

Fixed.

Edit: That was some classy stuff from Mr. Gordon

Absolute prick of a bloke for what he did.

 

[Toump Ass]

In hindsight, I really like the Bears logo, funny little fella. Looked kinda like a koala, I suppose that was intentional. Shame it's gone now, Brisbane should whip it out for heritage round some time...

 

[laverton_nuffy]

In hindsight, I really like the Bears logo, funny little fella. Looked kinda like a koala, I suppose that was intentional. Shame it's gone now, Brisbane should whip it out for heritage round some time...

they’ve played in the bears jumpers in previous heritage round games

 

[footyfan1978]

they’ve played in the bears jumpers in previous heritage round games

It was ok jumper but that weird line that just stopped on jumper was just, well, weird...

 

[tribey]

You don't think the Saints are a constant welfare recipient ??

If our club went to the wall because they couldn't operate as a financially viable option then so be it. I'd be pissed off but would also completely understand the reality of the situation.

The ‘welfare’ angle thrown around always tends to ignore the blatantly baked-in inequities of the competition.

If your club ‘went to the wall’ because they only get a couple of premium timeslots per year; or were never showcased on national free-to-air TV which made them unattractive to multinational/national corporate sponsors; or were chained to a punitive stadium deal and profit-sharing agreements for decades; or only enjoyed the away crowd boost of one home local derby per year; how would you feel?

Of course a North Melbourne, or a St Kilda, or a 2001 Freo, or a 2011 Port Adelaide is going to get more redistribution to reflect these sorts of things.

A prime example of just how tough it is to get a self-sufficient revenue foothold in the AFL despite going everything within one’s power, is the Showdown.

In its 25-year history, it’s arguably been the league’s premier fixture in that span.

Close games, biffo, huge crowds, a cavalcade of stars playing legendary games, and when is it ever broadcast live on free-to-air across the nation? When is it ever a standalone fixture?

If the AFL had the balls to fixture it on a Friday or Saturday night as the only/prime fixture for 10-20 years, the national footy public would consider it an event the same way people in Adelaide tune in for the ANZAC Day game. Or people in Perth tune in for the Easter Monday game.

Collingwood/Essendon/Geelong/Hawthorn just naturally get to enjoy all the wider perks of that national spotlight every year — Port and Adelaide, despite having an excellent product, do not.

 

[JPetro83]

They didn't really. Very saveable according to Greg Swann who was one of the team who came in to discharge the debts.

The AFL had $12 million to spare to give to clubs that merged, yet couldn't find $1 million to help Fitzroy.

A team didn't HAVE to go. It was AFL policy to try and keep the league to 16 teams, if possible. With Port Adelaide due to come in 1997, the commission wanted to keep the pressure on small Melbourne clubs to go. Fitzroy were seen as the weakest at the time and despite some valiant efforts to seek alternatives so Fitzroy could remain in the competition, the AFL stymied them all to get their overall result.




The VFL was trying to steer a middle course between expanding into a national competition and not alienating large sections of its heartland, through mergers or expulsions. It's strength was built n the foundations of traditionalism and tribalism and it needed to be careful not to dilute that too much. Fitzroy recognised fairly early on that it needed to possibly merge.

That's why Fitzroy sought mergers with Victorian clubs such as:

• Melbourne (Melbourne Lions - 1986, 1994). Called off both times by Melbourne on the verge of a public announcement - especially in 1986. From my point of view the "Melbourne Football Club - Fitzroy Football Club Ltd." trading as the 'Melbourne Lions' would have been the best.
• Footscray (Fitzroy Bulldogs - 1989). Ended by a massive fundraising effort by Dogs supporters. (The proposal should have been the Footscray Lions playing out of the Western Oval, instead of the Fitzroy Bulldogs playing at Princes Park.
• North Melbourne (North Fitzroy Kangaroos - 1996). Foiled by the AFL whose preference was boosting the Brisbane Bears with $6 million and players.

Fitzroy wanted their supporters to be able to watch football in Melbourne with some vestige of Fitzroy in that new club. In the end, to do that, the Club exited the AFL competition.




Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

And I'm not so sure anyway. Fitzroy's preference was to remain in Melbourne, so their supporters could actually watch their team, instead of just five-six games a year. Hence they favored a merger where their name and colors coud have been retained somehow. That's why they pursued a merger with a Melbourne club where that might have been achieved.

So if the Melbourne Hawks merger got up in 96, would Fitzroy have survived?

 

[Roylion]

So if the Melbourne Hawks merger got up in 96, would Fitzroy have survived?

The announcement that Fitzroy would 'merge' (Ross Oakley called it a 'corporate takeover' in the press conference that night) with Brisbane took place on Thurday 4th July. That any merger talks were taking place between Melbourne and Hawthorn hit the presses on Thursday 24th July. Operation Payback was launched by Don Scott the next day (25th July). Tne vote to merge was taken by members of both Melbourne and Hawthorn clubs on Monday September 16th at the Dallas Brooks Hall and the Camberwell Civic Centre respectively.

The competition may well have been reduced to 15 clubs in 1997 had the merger of Melbourne and Hawtborn taken place.

 

[Freomaniac]

100%, ground rationalisation led to the homogenisation of the AFL. Even if they kept say 4 grounds with Footscray playing at Western Oval, North/Carlton at Princes Park, Melb/Coll/Rich/Ess at MCG and Saints/Hawks at Waverley/Moorabbin would've been a far greater experience than what we have now.

Saints fans would do Anything to play AFL games at Moorabbin oval. They would love someone to throw 100 million dollars to turn that ground into a Botique groaund that Holds 25-30,000 seats.

People Bag out North and bulldogs getting 15,000 at their home games at Docklands.

Well they would love to have their own ground that holds 25-30,000 seats in their own local areas.


Yet.... AFL is making Billions of Dollars in TV rights money. Yet cant justify paying 100 million to upgrade certain grounds for AFL games.

Again.... I was Born in 1987, So I never had that chance to See Fitzroy home games at Junction oval or at Princes Park.

Closest I got or I can get now is Going to SANFL games.

 

[Freomaniac]

I'm very sad to hear this Roy. I personally would have hated a "Melbourne Demons" pretending to be the real Melbourne Demons, had we successfully merged with Hawthorn Hawks in the 1950s.


Sure did. You can learn about it in this great documentary, called "The Merge". Have you seen it?

I have seen that on youtube.... Its very good. gonna watch it Again.

 

[pz5151]

Saints fans would do Anything to play AFL games at Moorabbin oval. They would love someone to throw 100 million dollars to turn that ground into a Botique groaund that Holds 25-30,000 seats.

People Bag out North and bulldogs getting 15,000 at their home games at Docklands.

Well they would love to have their own ground that holds 25-30,000 seats in their own local areas.


Yet.... AFL is making Billions of Dollars in TV rights money. Yet cant justify paying 100 million to upgrade certain grounds for AFL games.

Again.... I was Born in 1987, So I never had that chance to See Fitzroy home games at Junction oval or at Princes Park.

Closest I got or I can get now is Going to SANFL games.

Moorabbin is something St Kilda should really not give up on. From what I understand they own the ground themselves, there is significant park area around it which could be converted into parking. You could pretty easily convert it into a 25k stadium with some standing room and two or three new stands I would’ve thought. It isn’t impossible to get that sort of funding from a mix of local council, and state/federal government either.

 

[Coolangatta]

Moorabbin is something St Kilda should really not give up on. From what I understand they own the ground themselves, there is significant park area around it which could be converted into parking. You could pretty easily convert it into a 25k stadium with some standing room and two or three new stands I would’ve thought. It isn’t impossible to get that sort of funding from a mix of local council, and state/federal government either.

Yeah but doesn’t the AFL’s Marvel contract **** all of that up? They have some arrangement to play a minimum X number of games there a year. They’d never let the Saints play at Moorabbin.

 

[Partridge]

They tried. In the early 90s Fitzroy were making plans to return to the Brunswick Street Oval (just up the road from their existing HQ and social club at the Fitzroy Club Hotel at the conjunction of St Georges Road and Brunswick Street) as a permanent training and administration base. The club had actually gained approval from the Fitzroy Council in 1992 to do just that, but needed at least an extra $250,000 (and possibly as much as $500,000) to renovate the old heritage grandstand and build a modern AFL quality gymnasium over the existing community rooms for the players.

They just couldn't find the extra money to do so.

You'd know better than me, but wasn't it big spending in the late 1970s that started their problems? Difference of course is that every other club was allowed to sort it out and/or get help.

The competition is immeasurably worse without them.

 

[Partridge]

The scenes at their second last home game against Richmond and last game against Freo (players laps of honour, supporters in the stands, their former greats etc) are still the most gut wrenchingly sad scenes I’ve ever seen since I’ve been following football.

I was at that Richmond game. By far the worst day I've had at a football match. It was horrible. Nothing has ever come close.

 

[Partridge]

My dad was die hard Fitzroy. Has never really followed the game since they were removed. The merger was also so poorly done, it was an absolute disgrace. He just ended up following local footy where myself and my brothers played. He is lost to the game, as were 1000s of other Fitzroy supporters.

It should have been a North Melbourne/Fitzroy merger, which a lot of Fitzroy people had got their heads around. The whole notion that the other clubs didn't want this, because North were already strong, came back to bite them as the Brisbane Lions ran rampant in the early 2000s, as a direct result of the merger.

The administration of the game was at its absolute lowest in the mid 90s.

The fact that the AFL is now completely propping up GCS and GWS, in markets where they will never ever be the number 1 sport, is a true slap in the face for Fitzroy supporters. Even getting 1% of the money burned to prop up the Suns and Giants would have been enough to save Fitzroy.

In regards to where they would stand in the Melbourne landscape at the moment, who knows, but they would certainly have a market. If the Dogs can gwt 50k members, Fitzroy would have been fine.

I can guarantee you now they would have no issue with player retention if their training base was at Brunswick Street oval. North Fitzroy is arguably the best suburb in Melbourne for location and lifestyle.

Id say its a neutral result. No better off, but obviously the strategic view was to expand heavily into northern states.

Exactly. Not just the Dogs, but Fitzroy had comfortably as many or more fans than North, St.Kilda, or South Melbourne. Until the last few decades on a par with Hawthorn too.

 

[Partridge]

Terrible decision for Fitzroy fans but the right one for the game.

We would be in a better spot if they’d relocated 2 more out of Melbourne while they were at it. It’s still a problem

No it isn't. The league is absolutely drowning in money.

If the competition is profitable it isn't a problem.

 

[Macca19]

Exactly. Not just the Dogs, but Fitzroy had comfortably as many or more fans than North, St.Kilda, or South Melbourne. Until the last few decades on a par with Hawthorn too.

Yeah, anecdotely maybe. Statistically, as in attendance wise, they didnt. Didnt average 20,000 to games from 1983.

Could they have been saved as their own entity? Yes. But how long for? Ground rationalisation may have helped, but then again, maybe not. Seeing the draft become more professional may have helped them on field, but then again, with the number of players leaving year on year, maybe not.

Just felt like it was inevitable. They’d hung on and hung on. If it wasnt 96, it could well have been 98, or 00, or 02.

Is the league better off? I dont think the league is better or worse off without them.

 

[NorthernBastard]

Quarter of a century without The Bears: Is the AFL better or worse off?

Need to cull GWS, GC Suns, North & St Kilda
14 team competition​

26 rounds, home and away - 45 players per list

 

[beerbandit]

Worse off, Carlton were in a far worse spot in the 00s and managed to stay in the comp. I suppose it helps when the commission was run by ex Carlton players