Opinion Recruiting and List Management Team: Hamish Ogilvie, Justin Reid & Co

[CryptoCrow]

Just looked at the stat comparisons on 2 first round picks that we could have taken instead

2018
Jones v Caldwell

2020
Pedlar v Bruhn

How could Hamish get it so wrong ?

I understand the Bruhn call as we have seen how long it was before heading back to Geelong. Was a wasted pick for any club outside Vic. But the Jones, McHenry and Macasy picks are absolute howlers

 

[CryptoCrow]

As in my villain thread, this bloke has ****ed us. Drove us into needing a rebuild with his s**t drafting coupled with our poor player retention, we’ve then unbelievably trusted him with our best ever draft haul to get us out of it. It defies belief.

Agreed George he's screwed us badly, however I sense the rebuild needs to be from the top down and a new board who is in touch with reality needs to start again with a solid foundation. I can't help but think the AFC was put together in a very rushed way " a house of cards, built by the ocean "
No matter where we've come from we now have real history albeit young. It's time to knock down the house and rebuild from the foundation instead of bringing in cheap cowboys to repair the cracks. Quality tradesmen are required but even before that we require some master architects to once and for all bring Integrity and a sense of what it means to be an Adelaide Crow, as staff, players and supporters.

 

[kirky]

So we have the following remaining players out of contract -

Brayden Cook
Brodie Smith

33

Brodie Smith

Age

32

Ht

189cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.5

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

7.2

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.1

4star

MG

500.1

5star

D

17.1

4star

K

12.6

5star

HB

4.5

3star

M

3.5

3star

T

2.3

3star

MG

438.9

5star

D

17.2

5star

K

10.8

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

3.6

5star

Chris Burgess

21

Chris Burgess

Age

28

Ht

194cm

Wt

97kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.2

2star

K

3.9

2star

HB

4.3

3star

M

2.7

3star

T

1.6

4star

G

0.3

3star

No current season stats available

D

6.6

2star

K

3.8

2star

HB

2.8

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

2.4

4star

G

0.4

3star

Elliot Himmelberg
Hugh Bond
James Borlase - Rookie
Lachlan Gollant
Lachlan Scholl
Ned McHenry

25

Ned Mchenry

Age

24

Ht

179cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.7

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

5.7

4star

M

2.5

3star

T

2.3

4star

G

0.0

1star

D

9.7

2star

K

4.0

1star

HB

5.7

3star

M

2.5

3star

T

2.3

3star

G

0.0

1star

D

10.0

3star

K

3.6

2star

HB

6.4

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.0

1star

Patrick Parnell - Rookie
Rory Sloane

9

Rory Sloane

Age

34

Ht

183cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.7

5star

K

11.7

4star

HB

11.9

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

6.6

5star

CL

5.7

5star

D

15.3

4star

K

7.3

3star

HB

8.0

4star

M

1.3

1star

T

3.3

4star

CL

4.2

5star

D

22.2

5star

K

8.6

4star

HB

13.6

5star

M

3.2

4star

T

6.0

5star

CL

4.6

5star

Sam Berry
Taylor Walker

13

Taylor Walker

Age

34

Ht

194cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

5.7

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

2.3

5star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

6.4

3star

HB

1.6

2star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.6

5star

Will Hamill

17

Will Hamill

Age

24

Ht

187cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

4.4

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.4

3star

MG

135.2

2star

D

8.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

4.4

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.4

2star

MG

135.2

2star

D

8.8

3star

K

4.4

2star

HB

4.4

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.4

4star

MG

135.2

3star

- Rookie

Oh boy, what a sorry list

 

[CryptoCrow]

Pick 36

I remember Hamish in an interview said he recruited Soligo simply because " the lad can just football ". Maybe we need to draft more of that instead of nice kids that will fit into structures and shapes?

 

[CryptoCrow]

He’s rubbish! Jobs for the boys! Corrupt and insipid at the top

 

[CryptoCrow]

Seriously

“It’s been good “

When


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[FR0GGY]

So we have the following remaining players out of contract -

Brayden Cook
Brodie Smith
Chris Burgess
Elliot Himmelberg
Hugh Bond
James Borlase - Rookie
Lachlan Gollant
Lachlan Scholl
Ned McHenry
Patrick Parnell - Rookie
Rory Sloane
Sam Berry
Taylor Walker
Will Hamill - Rookie

Oh boy, what a sorry list

These are the players you want unsigned.

 

[CryptoCrow]

Quite a few simplistic, non balanced opinions here. I get the negative vibes towards everything currently and I agree with much of it. With Hamish however I am not saying he is a top quartile drafter but believe the excessive hate/negativity is overdone.

Drafting AND development are both critical. Not sure our development team - after the exceptional Alan Stewart left in our GF year - faces the same level of scrutiny. Until then our development, esp rookies and low value draft picks, had been one of the leagues best. Many players stagnating - Fog a clear example.

I think the last 4-5 years have been the best period of Hamishs tenure at the club:

- elite potential prospects drafted Rachele, Max, Soligo, TT. I rate Worrell highly and also a very out of form Pedlar has shown he has what it takes. And last years crop, including Curtin who WC rated as second best player in the draft. Edwards and Ryan also exciting prospects and a couple of people in the club - pretty sure Tex was one - said last years draft haul is likely our best yet (and they do not say this every year)

- A number of other talented youngsters that time will tell if they make it but all seem reasonable quality based on draft position - Dowling, Shoey, Taylor and Cook. Most supporters here have seen the potential in some of these names, why aren’t they progressing and/or being played?

- giving up 2 first rounders for Rankine (fair value trade) and Dawson (bargain). Arguably our 2 best players. Hamish would have input and followed each of these lads during their careers and would have had key input into decision to trade rather than use the draft pick.

- bargains (rookies, PSD or delisted FA) buys Murray, Keane, Nank, Keays and Hinge. Many quality names in this lot.

The above list is basically a whole team alone.

Does he nail all high value picks? Ermmm, of course not - and nobody does - and Jones (Butters) and McAsey are glaring examples. One simple swap of Butters (who Twomey advised we were interested in) for Jones and things look very different. In 2015 Hamish wanted English and was overruled by Pyke taking The Gooch (Phil Bunn WA radio interview confirmed). But look at the Cats first round drafting over the last 10-15 years and see the crap they have more often than not taken but still a very successful club almost every year.

And Hamish took over when Matty R was shafted and we had NO first or second round picks in 2012 and 2013. But guess who was then deemed to have CLEARLY the most talented group of under 22 players 4 years later? Exceptional drafting with 4 x AA players in this lot unfortunately many who have left our club which isn’t Hamishs issue. And a number of rookies like CC and Laird and other bargain buys which we received a bounty of draft picks for when they left (Lever and MM). Quite exceptional drafting under the circumstances really don’t you think?

Young Crows dominate 22under22 squad

Plenty of Crows in AFLPA squad of League's best youth

www.afl.com.au

Just some balance people as things aren’t always quite so black and white.

This is really well thought out post and well written. Whilst I am a critic of Oglive, I'm a bigger critic of how the club is run from the top down ( fish rot from tge head) and definitely development is almost non existing anymore. Having said that Hamish doesn't get a free pass from me regarding selecting top end talent, there's been more dubious calls than correct ones, most certainly nothing to be remembered like trading groom for a young kid called McLeod.

 

[CryptoCrow]

I am analysing the ability of Hamish to draft midfielders with the numerous first rounders he’s had given it’s the most important area on the ground. How do you not get that?

Rankine and Dawson, again I’m talking drafting, not trading, how do you not get that?

Yes he did well in the early years but has sucked a lot since then, how come you’re ignoring his failed picks.

And here is the kicker, he’s been in charge since 2012. We finished bottom and out of the finals 5 years in a row whilst he’s been our draft guru. That sums it up. No other bullshit you come up with can counter that basic point.

 

[CryptoCrow]

That’s true, occasionally I get sucked in. Can you please take over

George, sometimes we just need to accept that no matter what stats a person wants to base an argument on it's just stats, which can be manipulated and interpreted in different ways. Save yourself the time and heartache, as my grandfather always told me never argue with fools as passers-by can't tell the difference. This applies to all including me incase 119 wants to decide I'm referring to him explicitly

 

[CryptoCrow]

what does “not man enough” even mean?

What a F-ed up thing to say

Well I know a thing or two about Social psychology, I can break it down for you

 

[Mostyn]

Imagine saying this after round 6 of a season in which we were expected to contend and re-signed our coach.

Sounds like more "blame the players" to me and there's lads now who would be thinking "stuff this" as a result.

They'll be thinking "great, we're getting some more decent players."

Every player in every club would be hoping their management goes and does that.

 

[George Kramer]

They'll be thinking "great, we're getting some more decent players."

Every player in every club would be hoping their management goes and does that.

Yeah that’s what Tex and those in the twilight of their career would be thinking. After wasting the last 6 years of their careers at a shit club rebuilding, they’d have to accept it was all for nothing and the hope leading into 2024 was false hope. The club you trusted has ****ed up the rebuild and has to start again and whilst they are doing it, they are making you accept the blame.

Yeah they’d be thinking great.

 

[Redline]

So we have the following remaining players out of contract -

Brayden Cook
Brodie Smith
Chris Burgess
Elliot Himmelberg
Hugh Bond
James Borlase - Rookie
Lachlan Gollant
Lachlan Scholl
Ned McHenry
Patrick Parnell - Rookie
Rory Sloane
Sam Berry
Taylor Walker
Will Hamill - Rookie

Oh boy, what a sorry list

Its an ordinary list and very long. I said at the end of 2023 I thought we needed to cut a bit harder.

Anymore than an about 8 free spots and we start filling list spots with round 4 and 5 picks.

Berry and Cook maybe get extensions during the year. McHenry will if he keeps getting a game.

Sloane will go, Tex will go if Nicks goes and the club probably thought Smith had one more year but he would need to significantly turn his season around.

I'd clear them all out but not sure it can happen.

 

[1970crow]

I thought it was bizarre a few years back when he described his pick of (I think) Jake Soligo as (paraphrasing) "he can just play football"

In contrast to his usual spiel about traits, good family, great attitude, best available, whatever

Reading between the lines it was like he was saying "this guy was picked solely on his football ability, whereas usually that's just a part of what we are looking for"

I think this plays into his drafting philosophy. He's always so concerned with other stuff, the good family vibes, making sure he has the right attitude, ignoring the value difference between certain positions to go best available. He loves and overvalues the player being a good person and he overrates versatility. A player that can play multiple positions poorly is worse than a player that plays one position to an elite level, but we typically go versatile.

In your list of midfielders (and other players) that he has drafted, I think one or more of these flawed aspects to his drafting was the overriding factor in the decision to pick the worse player

Chayce Jones - the draft profile from Rookie Me Central literally says "his character and personality have been noted as one of his biggest strengths". No mention of this on Zak Butters profile. Jones was a captain, Butters wasn't. Turns out being a good bloke doesn't mean you are good at football.

Luke Pedlar - yeah he could be a midfielder, but he was also played in the forward line a lot as a junior. Described as a goal kicking mid that could play either role. It's not yet proven he can play either role well

McHenry - another talked about as having a great attitude and team first approach. Could play as a midfielder or small forward based on where he played as a junior. Turns out he sucks at either role

Gallucci - hybrid mid-forward again

Rachele - hybrid mid-forward but mostly played as a forward that "could" play midfield. We're trying to bring him into the midfield at times but it's robbing us of a small forward because Hamish refuses to draft good pure small forwards.

Milera - is he a wing, half back, half forward? Another described as being versatile with multiple possible positions at AFL level

McAsey - another described as having the versatility to play forward or back.

Fogarty - was described in his draft profile as not having a clear position at AFL level, whether that was forward or midfield

Thilthorpe - again he is a ruck and a forward, compared to Logan McDonald who is just a forward. We'll see how that one goes

There are plenty of other players we've drafted with later picks that have clearly been selected again due to things like character or versatility. Just quietly we did this again with Dan Curtin.


It's abundantly clear we don't prioritize pure quality in one position, and when we have drafted players that have a clear position it's gone... well maybe not well but certainly better than grabbing the guys with no clear position.

And maybe this plays into development as well. If we're constantly picking players that could play 3 or 4 roles, instead of having a clear best position, we waste time experimenting with them around the ground. We've tried players like Jones and Milera all over the park. McAsey was played at both ends. Fogarty we tried in ******* defense. Of course good coaches should be able to identify a player's best position without stuffing around for season on end

So I think Hamish has and hasn't picked midfielders. The only player taken with a top pick I can see who was genuinely and predominantly a midfielder when selected was Jones. All the others are "maybe they will transition into the midfield" types.

Aside from not drafting midfielders Hamish hasn't taken a good pure small forward at the draft since Charlie Cameron a decade ago. He's never taken a good pure key position forward. He's never taken a good pure ruckman (don't say O'Brien, he's not good). He's never taken a good pure outside wingman (eg a Windsor or NWM type).

He has taken plenty of key defenders, medium defenders, small defenders and half forward flankers though

I think it's as simple as freezing over a 3 foot putt for birdie that you'd just knock in if it's for a double and your round was blown. The lesser value picks, we can open our shoulders, no risk, are there any grids that look like good footy players left? High end picks, good at footy becomes one of a few metrics and if you've got max votes on the other metrics, the need for good footy is diminished. It's process over outcome, we can show how this guy rated above this better guy, see 10 for family, 10 for interview, 10 for leadership, 10 for athletic, 5 for footy. That smokes a 5, 6, 5, 7 and 10.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

So we have the following remaining players out of contract -

Brayden Cook
Brodie Smith
Chris Burgess
Elliot Himmelberg
Hugh Bond
James Borlase - Rookie
Lachlan Gollant
Lachlan Scholl
Ned McHenry
Patrick Parnell - Rookie
Rory Sloane
Sam Berry
Taylor Walker
Will Hamill - Rookie

Oh boy, what a sorry list

Won't have an issue with list spots next trade & draft.

 

[GreyCrow]

I think it's pretty obvious why we don't pick up kids of certain shades.. hint just listen to the music of our club song.

I'm an old white privileged male - can you flesh this out for me

 

[GreyCrow]

Agreed George he's screwed us badly, however I sense the rebuild needs to be from the top down and a new board who is in touch with reality needs to start again with a solid foundation. I can't help but think the AFC was put together in a very rushed way " a house of cards, built by the ocean "

I disagree. Certainly having 4 months to prepare and living in ATCO huts may have seemed like a rushed job but at least we had football people in charge

Hammond
Sanders
Reid Sr Kerley
Cornes - for all his current day issues was a fantastic coach

No matter where we've come from we now have real history albeit young. It's time to knock down the house and rebuild from the foundation instead of bringing in cheap cowboys to repair the cracks. Quality tradesmen are required but even before that we require some master architects to once and for all bring Integrity and a sense of what it means to be an Adelaide Crow, as staff, players and supporters.

Its too late to knock it down. If we werent Adelaide we would have a foreclosure house for sale sign up

What we need is to find passionate FOOTBALL people who understand football not interweb clicks and merch sales

 

[Samcro24]

I disagree. Certainly having 4 months to prepare and living in ATCO huts may have seemed like a rushed job but at least we had football people in charge

Hammond
Sanders
Reid Sr
Cornes - for all his current day issues was a fantastic coach



Its too late to knock it down. If we werent Adelaide we would have a foreclosure house for sale sign up

What we need is to find passionate FOOTBALL people who understand football not interweb clicks and merch sales

Reid snr was Kerley in those days but your point stands

 

[1970crow]

View attachment 1966892

We've been here before. Next minute: Chris Burgess, the end.

5 rounds in and already talking trade period. New AFL record?

 

[TRP1996]

I got that one right.

View attachment 1969654

Surely Edward McHenry, The Keeper of Shapes, could fulfil the small aggressive guy with a mullet quota if we got him to grow out his hair?

 

[1970crow]

Surely Edward McHenry, The Keeper of Shapes, could fulfil the small aggressive guy with a mullet quota if we got him to grow out his hair?

If he has 20 and 1 against the Roos, will he have failed in his role? Surely if it’s possible to keep shape and get the pill, then that would be the standard. Based upon their excuses this far, getting the ball must imply poor performance.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

I disagree. Certainly having 4 months to prepare and living in ATCO huts may have seemed like a rushed job but at least we had football people in charge

Hammond
Sanders
Reid Sr Kerley
Cornes - for all his current day issues was a fantastic coach



Its too late to knock it down. If we werent Adelaide we would have a foreclosure house for sale sign up

What we need is to find passionate FOOTBALL people who understand football not interweb clicks and merch sales

That's 4 quality football minds in our start up.

We don't have anyone currently at AFC who matches any of them.

There in lies the problem why we are mediciocre.

 

[maxlilly]

5 rounds in and already talking trade period. New AFL record?

2 months ago Nicks is negotiating his contract and telling the board we are on an upward trend and finals bound.
5 weeks into the season and he blames the club for a shit squad and we need to trade players in because our recruiting has been terrible

 

[Jars458]

Won't have an issue with list spots next trade & draft.

10 spots at least