Richmond drafting - explains a lot

[Senor M]

I understand that Richmond have been no good for the last 35 years because they have consistently over-rated their list and recruited poorly.

But you don't seem to understand that draft picks are eventually turned into players.

In 2006 Richmond traded Pick #8 (who became Ben Reid) & Pick #42 (Bachar Houli by Essendon, so his Essendon career) for Graeme Polak, Pick #13 (who became Jack Riewoldt) and Pick #73 (which became Andrew Collins)

You called that trade a Fail. If you really think it's a fail, you therefore believe that Ben Reid & Houli's Essendon career must be better than Jack Riewoldt's career.

 

[footyfan1978]

Leppa on Tigers list.
"FORMER Brisbane Lions coach turned Richmond assistant Justin Leppitsch has declared the sky is the limit for the Tigers in 2017."

Henny Penny needs a good chat with Leppa before his grip on reality is gone forever.

 

[SA_Hawker]

Richmond has been an average football team for the best part of 35 years. Is it culture or is it down to poor recruiting? I believe it is a combination of both and have put together their draft/trade history (over the last ten years) to enhance my view. I have rated their players as a win/loss/ok; this is obviously subjective.

Makes for interesting reading and shows why they haven’t won a final in 15 years.


2006
Riewoldt (12) & Edwards (26), Jake King (rookie) - WINS
Connors – OK
Traded in Polak and #13 & 73 for their #8 & 42 picks – LOSS
Peterson, Collins, Kingsley, Clingan - LOSS

2007
Cotchin (2) & Rance (18) – WIN
Traded in Jordan McMahon for pick 19 – LOSS
Dean Putt (51), Gourdis, Collard, Silvester, Howat – LOSS

2008
Ty Vickery (8) & Nahas - OK
Traded in Adam Thomson for pick 42 – LOSS
Post, Hislop, Cousins, Browne, Gilligan - LOSS

2009
Martin (3) & Grimes – WIN
Astbury, Griffiths (19) – OK
Dea , Taylor, Webberley, Nason, Hicks, Contin, Roberts, Nicholas Westhoff - LOSS

2010
Houli - WIN
Batchelor – OK
Conca (6), Helbig, Derickx, MacDonald, Jakobi, Miller - LOSS

2011
Brandon Ellis (15) – WIN
Traded in Ivan Maric for pick 37 - OK (played a couple of good seasons early but hardly played a game in two years)
Traded in Steven Morris for swap of high draft picks (14/15) – any trade that gets Morris to your club is a LOSS
Elton (26), Arnot, O’Hanlon, Marric, Darrou, Verrier, Turner, Wright – LOSS

2012
Vlaustin (9) - WIN
Troy Chaplin traded in for second rounder, McIntosh - OK
Chris Knights traded in – LOSS
Aaron Edwards, McBean, McDonaugh, Petterd, Lonergon, Stephensson, Williams – LOSS

2013
Sam Lloyd (66), Miles (rookie) – WIN
Hampson traded in for pick 32 – OK (just)
BenLennon (12), Gordon, Banfield, Thomas – LOSS

2014
Menadue (31) , Short (rookie), Lambert (Rookie) - OK
Corey Ellis (pick 12), Taylor Hunt, Drummond, Butler, MacKenzie, Soldo - LOSS

2015
Rioli, Markov & Broad all look like WINS so far
Andrew Moore, Townsend, Yarran (so far) - LOSS

So roughly, over the last 10 years, Richmond has traded in 89 players.

• 15 WINS
  
• 13 OK players
  
• 61 LOSSES

They get 1 in 6 right. No wonder they are in no-man’s land...

And that is not going back as far as Tambling over franklin, Fiora over Pavlich etc

 

[NeXus Nick]

And that is not going back as far as Tambling over franklin, Fiora over Pavlich etc

This my take on the Richmond v Carlton talk.....
Carlton has been very ordinary now for about 20 years. I think this about to change though. They have finally realized where their list is at and have cleared the dead wood. The next 2 drafts/trades will tell the story. I suspect they will hit the draft hard and rebuild from the bottom up (like St Kilda). Richmond on the other hand still have delusions of grandeur though because Hardwick is coaching for his job and not Richmond. As I have said previously, if he keeps trading for mid agers Richmond will continue to be in the doldrums for another 10 years.

 

[Al Kemy]

Difference is our club hasnt bottomed out like the blues, or your club for that matter. You and Melbourne would almost have a team of top five picks for the last decade and you have performed worse.

 

[Love the Drake]

Difference is our club hasnt bottomed out like the blues, or your club for that matter. You and Melbourne would almost have a team of top five picks for the last decade and you have performed worse.

And this delusional belief that as a Richmond fan you can pour scorn on clubs that have 'bottomed out'.

Richmond has been in no-mans land for 35 years due to over-rating their list and trading poorly, yet their supporters act as if they've won 10 flags in that time..

What happens if you finish 7th next year (and lose another final)..is that a successful year?

 

[Al Kemy]

And this delusional belief that as a Richmond fan you can pour scorn on clubs that have 'bottomed out'.

Richmond has been in no-mans land for 35 years due to over-rating their list and trading poorly, yet their supporters act as if they've won 10 flags in that time..

What happens if you finish 7th next year (and lose another final)..is that a successful year?

I think 9th is more our style lol, not quite in the finals and and limited access to the best kids. They call us 9thmond FFS.
This has affected us more than anything. We should learn to tank like you guys

 

[footyfan1978]

I think 9th is more our style lol, not quite in the finals and and limited access to the best kids. They call us 9thmond FFS.
This has affected us more than anything. We should learn to tank like you guys

More like limited record of snaring really good kids.
Bottom of ladder in 2004 you had 5 picks in top 20.
Only Deledio was a good pick looking back on it.

Due to blowing that access to best kids you ended up being given a second chance at it in 2007. Picking Cotchin and Rance was an improvement on 2004 attempt.

From 2002 to 2009 you actually had 15 attempts at picking best kids in top 25 picks of drafts in that period. That is not a limited access to best kids. You got a strike rate of 1 in 3 being good picks. You had Deledio, Jack Riewoldt, Cotchin, Rance and Dustin Martin from those 15 attempts.


Here is a decent look since 2002 of what you did with your picks from top 25 picks of all those drafts. I think it is fair to judge to end of 2010 now Conca is gone and had enough time to judge his worth.

12 Jay Schulz Richmond Woodville-West Torrens 2002

18 & 32 of 2002 traded away with Jason Torney to Adelaide for pick 12, Kane Johnson, pick 28 & 41

6 & 20 of 2003 traded away to Western Bulldogs for Nathan Brown

21 Alex Gilmour Richmond Tasmania U18 2003

The draft picks bonanza from rock bottom (wooden spoon in 2004)

1 Brett Deledio Richmond Murray U18 2004

4 Richard Tambling Richmond Southern Districts 2004

12 Danny Meyer Richmond Glenelg 2004

16 Adam Pattison Richmond Northern U18 2004

20 Dean Polo Richmond Gippsland U18 2004

8 Jarrad Oakley-Nicholls Richmond East Perth 2005

24 Cleve Hughes Richmond Norwood 2005

8 of 2006 traded away to Fremantle as part of deal that secured Graham Polack and pick 13

13 Jack Riewoldt Richmond Tasmania U18 2006



Re-load after another wooden spoon to make Elimination Finals in more recent times.

2 Trent Cotchin Richmond Northern U18 2007

18 Alex Rance Richmond Swan Districts 2007

19 of 2007 traded away to Bulldogs for Jordan McMahon

8 Ty Vickery Richmond Sandringham U18 2008

3 Dustin Martin Richmond Bendigo U18 2009

19 Ben Griffiths Richmond Eastern U18 2009

6 Reece Conca Richmond Perth 2010

 

[Toadvine]

More like limited record of snaring really good kids.
Bottom of ladder in 2004 you had 5 picks in top 20.

When he says “limited access” he’s referring to the 2010 and 2011 drafts. In 2010 we finished 2nd last and ended up with pick 6 and 30 after the Gold Coast concessions. In 2011 we finished 12th which would have entitled us to pick 6 but instead we ended up with picks 14 and 37 after GWS concessions. This is also without taking into account the 17 year olds that were removed from these draft pools (O’meara, Shiel, Treloar, Jeremy Cameron etc).

I wonder how Carlton fans would feel if this year their picks 5 and 25 were pushed out to say pick 13 and 36 in what is clearly a rebuilding year? Or what if instead of getting Weitering at pick 1 last year your pick was pushed out to pick 5? I’m sure you would be rapt.

 

[footyfan1978]

I wonder how Carlton fans would feel if this year their picks 5 and 25 were pushed out to say pick 13 and 36 in what is clearly a rebuilding year?

he he. You do not know the half of it.
First pick in 2002 was pushed out to 45, not 13.
You can keep wondering and just be thankful you not had two years of losing picks 1,2, 5, 21, 31 and 34 and being forced to see the ramifications for over a decade play out.

They are two train wrecks, just on different tracks the Tigers and Blues been on.

 

[Toadvine]

he he. You do not know the half of it.
First pick in 2002 was pushed out to 45, not 13.
You can keep wondering and just be thankful you not had two years of losing picks 1,2, 5, 21, 31 and 34 and being forced to see the ramifications for over a decade play out.

They are two train wrecks, just on different tracks the Tigers and Blues been on.

Train wrecks is right, although 2002 was self inflicted, ours was "to grow the game"

 

[MoreMoore]

But you don't seem to understand that draft picks are eventually turned into players.

In 2006 Richmond traded Pick #8 (who became Ben Reid) & Pick #42 (Bachar Houli by Essendon, so his Essendon career) for Graeme Polak, Pick #13 (who became Jack Riewoldt) and Pick #73 (which became Andrew Collins)

You called that trade a Fail. If you really think it's a fail, you therefore believe that Ben Reid & Houli's Essendon career must be better than Jack Riewoldt's career.

Ben Reid has a premiership

 

[Love the Drake]

More like limited record of snaring really good kids.
Bottom of ladder in 2004 you had 5 picks in top 20.
Only Deledio was a good pick looking back on it.

Due to blowing that access to best kids you ended up being given a second chance at it in 2007. Picking Cotchin and Rance was an improvement on 2004 attempt.

From 2002 to 2009 you actually had 15 attempts at picking best kids in top 25 picks of drafts in that period. That is not a limited access to best kids. You got a strike rate of 1 in 3 being good picks. You had Deledio, Jack Riewoldt, Cotchin, Rance and Dustin Martin from those 15 attempts.


Here is a decent look since 2002 of what you did with your picks from top 25 picks of all those drafts. I think it is fair to judge to end of 2010 now Conca is gone and had enough time to judge his worth.

12 Jay Schulz Richmond Woodville-West Torrens 2002

18 & 32 of 2002 traded away with Jason Torney to Adelaide for pick 12, Kane Johnson, pick 28 & 41

6 & 20 of 2003 traded away to Western Bulldogs for Nathan Brown

21 Alex Gilmour Richmond Tasmania U18 2003

The draft picks bonanza from rock bottom (wooden spoon in 2004)

1 Brett Deledio Richmond Murray U18 2004

4 Richard Tambling Richmond Southern Districts 2004

12 Danny Meyer Richmond Glenelg 2004

16 Adam Pattison Richmond Northern U18 2004

20 Dean Polo Richmond Gippsland U18 2004

8 Jarrad Oakley-Nicholls Richmond East Perth 2005

24 Cleve Hughes Richmond Norwood 2005

8 of 2006 traded away to Fremantle as part of deal that secured Graham Polack and pick 13

13 Jack Riewoldt Richmond Tasmania U18 2006



Re-load after another wooden spoon to make Elimination Finals in more recent times.

2 Trent Cotchin Richmond Northern U18 2007

18 Alex Rance Richmond Swan Districts 2007

19 of 2007 traded away to Bulldogs for Jordan McMahon

8 Ty Vickery Richmond Sandringham U18 2008

3 Dustin Martin Richmond Bendigo U18 2009

19 Ben Griffiths Richmond Eastern U18 2009

6 Reece Conca Richmond Perth 2010

Now that's some good research FF78...if only I had the time. Well done. Next time I'm starting a thread I'll draw on your resources!

 

[footyfan1978]

Now that's some good research FF78...if only I had the time. Well done. Next time I'm starting a thread I'll draw on your resources!

ha ha. All good Drake. I actually love researching the recruiting systems as they have changed over time. Following how trades and draft selections play out over time is very interesting. Getting more interesting by the year now we have future draft selections traded.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

Ben Reid has a premiership

Yep, is a star. Was All Australian in 2011 as well and one of the best in both 2010 grand finals. Would have more All Australian selections if it wasn't for his injuries.

And Houli is a good player.

Limiting him to his Essendon career makes no sense. This thread is about who was drafted. Just because Essendon developed him poorly and didn't get the best out of him, doesn't mean they made the wrong decision by drafting him. His eventual career vindicates his (poor, which is more impressive) draft position.

 

[mopsy]

Richmond has been an average football team for the best part of 35 years. Is it culture or is it down to poor recruiting? I believe it is a combination of both and have put together their draft/trade history (over the last ten years) to enhance my view. I have rated their players as a win/loss/ok; this is obviously subjective.

Makes for interesting reading and shows why they haven’t won a final in 15 years.


2006
Riewoldt (12) & Edwards (26), Jake King (rookie) - WINS
Connors – OK
Traded in Polak – LOSS
Peterson, Collins, Kingsley, Clingan - LOSS

2007
Cotchin (2) & Rance (18) – WIN
Traded in Jordan McMahon for pick 19 – LOSS
Dean Putt (51), Gourdis, Collard, Silvester, Howat – LOSS

2008
Ty Vickery (8) & Nahas - OK
Traded in Adam Thomson for pick 42 – LOSS
Post, Hislop, Cousins, Browne, Gilligan - LOSS

2009
Martin (3) & Grimes – WIN
Astbury, Griffiths (19) – OK
Dea , Taylor, Webberley, Nason, Hicks, Contin, Roberts, Nicholas Westhoff - LOSS

2010
Houli - WIN
Batchelor – OK
Conca (6), Helbig, Derickx, MacDonald, Jakobi, Miller - LOSS

2011
Brandon Ellis (15) – WIN (does go missing in big games though)
Traded in Ivan Maric for pick 37 - OK (played a couple of good seasons early but hardly played a game in two years)
Traded in Steven Morris – any trade that gets Morris to your club is a LOSS
Elton (26), Arnot, O’Hanlon, Marric, Darrou, Verrier, Turner, Wright – LOSS

2012
Vlaustin (9) - WIN
Troy Chaplin traded in, McIntosh - OK
Chris Knights traded in – LOSS
Aaron Edwards, McBean, McDonaugh, Petterd, Lonergon, Stephensson, Williams – LOSS

2013
Sam Lloyd (66), Miles (rookie) – WIN
Hampson traded in for pick 32 – OK (just)
BenLennon (12), Gordon, Banfield, Thomas – LOSS (*early days re Lennon but has shown near enough for a pick 12)

2014
Menadue (31) , Short (rookie), Lambert (Rookie) - OK
Corey Ellis (pick 12), Taylor Hunt, Drummond, Butler, MacKenzie, Soldo - LOSS (** extremely early days re Lennon but has not shown near enough for a pick 12)

2015
Rioli, Markov & Broad all look like WINS so far
Andrew Moore, Townsend, Yarran (so far) - LOSS

So roughly, over the last 10 years, Richmond has traded in 89 players.

• 15 WINS
  
• 13 OK players
  
• 61 LOSSES

They get 1 in 6 right. No wonder they are in no-man’s land...

As a tiger supporter i think that a generous summation there are 5 or 6 you have as okay and i would classify them as losses.

The amasing thing is the footy club have kept the entire Recruiting dept making the 2ic head of recruiting despite him being there since 2009.
Francis Jackson 2005 to 2016 is only gone because he retired mid yr but is still at the club in a part time role. Unbelievable.

Changes at this club amount to a shuffling of deck chars.

 

[mopsy]

Yep, is a star. Was All Australian in 2011 as well and one of the best in both 2010 grand finals. Would have more All Australian selections if it wasn't for his injuries.

And Houli is a good player.

Limiting him to his Essendon career makes no sense. This thread is about who was drafted. Just because Essendon developed him poorly and didn't get the best out of him, doesn't mean they made the wrong decision by drafting him. His eventual career vindicates his (poor, which is more impressive) draft position.

lol that is a wrong assesment Houli is exactly the same player he was at Essendon. Horrible player who has no defense bones in his body and always panics under pressure.
Our club should have been trying to upgrade on him years ago instead of lauding his okay games.

 

[mopsy]

Hawthorn (LOSSES only, because I've got a life I've got to get back to)

With apologies to Hawk fans - obviously a great team, hence why I chose them to prove a point.

2006
Mitch Thorp (6), Brent Renouf (24), Jarryd Morton (33),Garry Moss (56), Luke McEntee, Lukas Markovic, Stephen Gilham, Ben Kane

2007
Josh Thurgood, Brett Collins,

2008
Jordan Lisle (50), Luke Lowden (63), Hugh Sandilands, Tim B Walsh, Alex Grima, Cameron Stokes

2009
Sam Grimley (39), Jordan Williams (57), Rhan Hooper (58), Riley Milne, Haydn Kiel, Carl Peterson, Garry Moss, Will Sierakowski,

2010
Mitch Hallahan (38), Kyle Cheney, Wayde Skipper, Jarrod Kayler-Thomson, Michael Johnston,

2011
Cameron Bruce, Jordan Kelly (38), Alex Woodward (53), Jarrad Boumann, Sam Menegola, Tom Schneider, Derick Wanganeen,

Call it quits there as it's ridiculous to count kids still developing (like Lennon, C. Ellis, Townsend or Soldo).

That's 36 Unequivocal LOSSES in six years to the team that just went three-peat and top four this year. And there's more who are bigger losses than Conca, Morris, Petterd and Hunt.

There is one small difference to us they only had two picks inside the top 30 in those yrs.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

mate if you haven't realized by now trolling richmond is encouraged but god help you if you say anything bad about carlton or the roos

Bull, we get called norf constantly on the mb and get trolled on the mb as much as any club. All clubs are trolled, Richmond are no exception.

 

[mopsy]

Even if Richmond didn't select lennon they wouldn't have picked cripps. Cripps was a pure luck reach by carlton. He was estimated to go at around pick 25

Yet the club identified the real need for big inside mids had said publicly this was a priority and proceeded to ignore the problem other than take Matt Thomas in the rookie draft. The club still has not adequately replaced Tuck who was delisted that yr. To exacerbate the problem Jackson retired the following yr and still they did stuff all.

Recruiting since the inception of the nd has been diabolical and list management even worse. Throw in the fact very few players outside of the first round have been developed and any fool can see WHY we have been so poor for so long when the three KEY pillars to building a list have been allowed to be so poor. And lets not kid ourselves it continues.

 

[mopsy]

This illustrates the hilarity of it all. Nobody at Richmond can see/admit where their list is at. Bringing in Prestia and Caddy (although both good players), exacerbates their problems. If Richmond keep doing this (bringing in mid agers), they will be in the doldrums for another 10 years. As I said earlier, this is the approach I expect from Carlton but even they have seen the light (recently).

Very well said and to the point. But hey some of us tiger supporters do see it so dont lump us altogether

 

[mopsy]

Richmond the gift that never stops giving for all opposition supporters

no doubt will spud up their picks again this year

keep up the good work benny gale, dimma, penny, blair Hartley and co

What picks we only have 27 and 56 and will promote short. Hows that for looking after the long term if i was not a tiger supporter id be laughing with the rest of you.

 

[Senor M]

Yep, is a star. Was All Australian in 2011 as well and one of the best in both 2010 grand finals. Would have more All Australian selections if it wasn't for his injuries.

Premiership player and All Australian, but Ben Reid is definately is not at the level of Jack Riewoldt.

And Houli is a good player.

Limiting him to his Essendon career makes no sense. This thread is about who was drafted. Just because Essendon developed him poorly and didn't get the best out of him, doesn't mean they made the wrong decision by drafting him. His eventual career vindicates his (poor, which is more impressive) draft position.

The discussion was about whether a particular trade (Pick #8 (Ben Reid) & Pick #42 (Bachar Houli) from Richmond for Graham Polak, Pick #13 (Jack Riewoldt) & Pick #73 (Andrew Collins)) was a win or a loss.

You can't say Richmond lost out in that trade due to Houli's time at Richmond, as he played that part of his career for Richmond and they recruited him for only a pre-season draft pick in the 2010 pre-season draft.

 

[Love the Drake]

As a tiger supporter i think that a generous summation there are 5 or 6 you have as okay and i would classify them as losses.

The amasing thing is the footy club have kept the entire Recruiting dept making the 2ic head of recruiting despite him being there since 2009.
Francis Jackson 2005 to 2016 is only gone because he retired mid yr but is still at the club in a part time role. Unbelievable.

Changes at this club amount to a shuffling of deck chars.

As I've said; our history has been horrendous. Yours is not far behind. The issue for you is that Hardwick and the Richmond FC keep recruiting like you are "in the window" and a lot of your supporters seem to be ok with finishing mid-table ("it's better than bottoming out"). With GWS and possibly the Bullies lists, its not inconceivable that they win the next three flags between them. Not a bad time to bottom out and re-build..

 

[Jeremias]

It's the trading in of average footballers in an attempt to sneak into finals that hurt them. Still unbelievable that this was the direction from club management

Was?

That directive arguably hasn't changed given their moves through the most recent trade period.

They are going into this draft with one pick inside the top 30, and two inside the top 60 - both likely to be pushed out further with academy and father/son selections. I wouldn't be happy with that if I was a Richmond supporter.