Richmond - time for a rebuild?

[My Tilly]

I think an often underplayed issue with the Cats which is the same as the Tigers is the leadership aspect. Selwood, even when he was breaking down was able to pull some inspirational moment out of his arse which would lift the rest of the team. The tigers are lacking strong leadership as well. Young made a mistake and none of the leaders at the club went to talk to him or even try help out with reinforcing good behaviour.

Have to be honest, and I get all the leadership qualities etc, etc but I personally felt like Selwood went on a year too many. I was pleasantly surprised he played as well as he did in his final year but Tom Stewart was always the one who was labelled as the next captain. Internally, we often heard about his leadership pedigree, along with Selwood of course. But I think the whole Selwood will be missed is a little overblown. There is a reason why Geelong have always shifted players in and out of the leadership group. They were getting ready for the loss of Selwood. Blicavs learnt on the job during his time as co-captain as well as O'Conner.

No doubt our time will come and fall away but I just don't see a Hawthorn scenario where we hit rock bottom.
Already seen enough from younger players to know their game has a lot more room for improvement.
Hawkins is the big one. I reckon that is why we may be willing to cough up more than we usually would for someone like Tom De Koning. I think we have replaced Taylor, Enright, Henderson quite well in the back line since their retirements.

That midfield is the concern which gets back to your mob. Securing Taranto and Hopper will keep you guys relevant but it's those very rare players in Martin (Dangerfield) which are generational and impossible to replace.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Ah this stupid poxy post.

Trade a 2023 1st rounder. Set back the club 10,000 years

It all depends on circumstances. If the players you get in the door contribute to your situation in a meaningful way, it works out. Geelong trading out future firsts for mature recruits paid dividends in the end… given where Richmond is I doubt giving away two years of first round picks is a good choice for a club in a rebuild. I don’t see hopper or Taranto contributing a single thing to any success moving forward.

Literally geelong Melbourne and collingwood will have access to better youth last year and this year than Richmond will… which says a lot

 

[Juddernaut08]

cant believe we had a draw against this pathetic club

 

[juss]

Personally I was thinking more getting 3-4 picks in the 20s kind of range.

I've always felt rebuilding teams should go for getting multiple potentially 'very good' players in that Pick 15-30 range (either draft or trade) who can fill multiple holes in the list, instead of getting one Top 5 'superstar' who can't do everything on their own.

That could work too, depending on what those specific picks are.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

cant believe we had a draw against this pathetic club

Same for us too though.

 

[Nicho50]

I think we are experiencing this right now which is why any moment Dangerfield has a poor game, you immediately see the results. He is still the one player who can break the lines and bulldoze his way through congestion.

Having said that, Geelong have been here before when it was just Selwood and a batch of newcomers who had not yet become elite midfielders (Duncan, Guthrie).
We were forced into playing Stokes & Johnson through the middle. We had hopes for Christensen, Caddy, Murdoch, Schroder, Hunt, Horlin-Smith and rucks Simpson/West. None of them amounted too anything.
We tried to lure Travis Boak. We thought Jack Steven was going give years of solid service.

However, recent draft acquisitions has me pretty optimistic about our future.
Not only the progress they are making in the VFL but the timing in which they will be called upon to hold their own. That is key to it all.
Not to mention the potential of securing free agents in the coming years.

You nailed it there and its the process Richmond are trying to do also staying competitive without bottoming out. Realistically without the injuries we win a couple of the close games we lost and we would be mid table so its not the end of the world. It is a myth we don't have young talent because we actually do and currently are playing them its just hard at the moment because they are undersized and have a lack of support due to some of the injuries but also the form of some of the senior guys like Prestia and Cotchin. IMO they should have started playing these kids more in 21-22 but Dimma is still stuck in that idea that it is the same side that won the flags which it isn't and guys like Edwards , Lambert( hip was cooked), Parker etc still got games.

 

[BF Tiger]

Personally I was thinking more getting 3-4 picks in the 20s kind of range.

I've always felt rebuilding teams should go for getting multiple potentially 'very good' players in that Pick 15-30 range (either draft or trade) who can fill multiple holes in the list, instead of getting one Top 5 'superstar' who can't do everything on their own.

We did both at the same time once. Deledio was the only one who showed anything.

 

[PrinceCharles]

The clutch kings: Your club's record in close games

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This would indicate they're mentally fragile as well, strange for such an experienced side.

 

[Daka]

Geelong do still have 4 superstars fit and firing - Danger, Hawkins, Cameron and Stewart.

The mistake in Richmond getting Taranto and Hopper is not that they are not good players. They are. It is that Richmond spent assets to get them and those assets maybe could have got the superstars they need to replace.

Holding the draft picks is not a guarantee, but we know Taranto and Hopper are not superstars.

The reason Richmond made this mistake is they still have Dusty, Cotchin, Riewoldt and Lynch and legitimately thought they were still contending. But they are not - Cotchin, Dusty and Riewoldt are all massively down on output - which is perfectly normal given the phase of their careers.

Those Geelong players will have to retire at some stage too. They can't play forever you know.

Also the picks we traded could end up being dud players in the draft. Why not get players you know can play now & the future.

 

[Fadge]

A lot of hindsight heroes telling us Richmond are a spent force, both here and in the media.

Wind the clock back 2 months and Richmond were third favourites for the flag, behind only Geelong and Melbourne, and there weren't many of us predicting this demise...

 

[Partridge]

Those Geelong players will have to retire at some stage too. They can't play forever you know.

Also the picks we traded could end up being dud players in the draft. Why not get players you know can play now & the future.

That's actually been the exact argument many Geelong fans have used for mature top-ups for a decade.

 

[branedotorg]

We've been rebuilding on the run for the last 3 or 4 years. This last off season was the first time we have traded first round draft picks for years.
Taranto and Hopper aren't the issues currently. They're playing pretty well. I think the drain on IP and the quality of coaches which we have lost in the last 4 years is a massive issue for us.
The positive in the mess of season 2023 is we are getting games into the kids like Ryan, Miller, MRJ etc etc. An injury and suspension list of 14 players hasn't helped the cause. But that's no excuse for today. Today was shizer.

time for dimma to walk i reckon, 14 seasons is a long time.

commit to a new start and try to regenerate the list, even if it means trading out players.

shit for hopper and tarranto but they'll be well compensated.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

That's actually been the exact argument many Geelong fans have used for mature top-ups for a decade.

I think Richmond only have 6 players on their list who have played at other clubs. This I am pretty sure would be the lowest in the AFL or very near to it. The 6 players are Lynch, Nankervis, Tarrant, Prestia, Hopper, Taranto. There are only 2 player roles in there really, key position players and inside midfielders. The types of players you would be mainly hoping to draft if you had high value draft picks - which neither Geelong nor Richmond have had too much of in the last dozen or so years. Also, Tarrant is the only player of that lot brought to Richmond older than the 23-26 yo range the others all fit into. So Richmond's strategy is clear and to me it looks sound. They don't trade or free agent players in unless they are major structural components of the team.

The Cats did this to an extent with Stanley, Dangerfield, Cameron amongst others. But also grabbed a lot of players in an older age range and plenty of different role players like Rohan, Touhy, Isaac, Dahlhaus etc I never liked that as a strategy, and pretty sure you didn't either, but you have to admit defeat to at least some extent when the team wins a flag. Interesting though, the 2022 Geelong Premiership team contained just 7 players who had played for other clubs, Stanley, Touhy, Rohan, Dangerfield, Isaac, Stengle, Cameron. There is a mix of major and minor roles covered by that lot. But 7 is within a normal range for an AFL Premiership team.

I don't think Richmond can be fairly accused of recklessly pursuing instant gratification by recruiting Hopper and Taranto. You need to know where your structural players(key positions and inside mids) are coming from in future years or you risk becoming uncompetitive. In the absence of recruiting those players, Richmond had no viable inside midfield over the coming years. And the team is clearly competitive, despite not playing well overall in a couple of recent games, none of these losses have been walkovers.

 

[Partridge]

I think Richmond only have 6 players on their list who have played at other clubs. This I am pretty sure would be the lowest in the AFl or very near to it. The 6 players are Lynch, Nankervis, Tarrant, Prestia, Hopper, Taranto. There are only 2 player roles in there really, key position players and inside midfielders. The types of players you would be mainly hoping to draft if you had high value draft picks - which neither Geelong nor Richmond have had too much of in the last dozen or so years. Also, Tarrant is the only player of that lot brought to Richmond older than the 23-26 yo range the others all fit into. So Richmond's strategy is clear and to me it looks sound. They don't trade or free agent players in unless they are major structural components of the team.

The Cats did this to an extent with Stanley, Dangerfield, Cameron amongst others. But also grabbed a lot of players in an older age range and plenty of different role players like Rohan, Touhy, Isaac, Dahlhaus etc I never liked that as a strategy, and pretty sure you didn't either, but you have to admit defeat to at least some extent when the team wins a flag. Interesting though, the 2022 Geelong Premiership team contained just 7 players who had played for other clubs, Stanley, Touhy, Rohan, Dangerfield, Isaac, Stengle, Cameron. There is a mix of major and minor roles covered by that lot. But 7 is within a normal range for an AFL Premiership team.

I don't think Richmond can be fairly accused of recklessly pursuing instant gratification by recruiting Hopper and Taranto. You need to know where your structural players(key positions and inside mids) are coming from in future years or you risk becoming uncompetitive. In the absence of recruiting those players, Richmond had no viable inside midfield over the coming years. And the team is clearly competitive, despite not playing well overall in a couple of recent games, none of these losses have been walkovers.

Good post. I definitely didn't. It worked for last year, but plenty have seemed to immediately forget we had an 11 year gap in between premierships, and there were plenty of really bad finals losses and/or finals smashings in that time (twice in 2017, one in 2021) where a lot of those imports failed spectacularly. It underlines that every season really is different, and the same player can be perform dramatically different within a pretty small timeframe (i.e. Cotchin in finals in 2015 and then in 2017). It's still underappreciated how important our younger brigade was last year in the second half of the season. Even Scott mentioned at one point you don't expect 7-8 young guys to all click at once. They did. We wouldn't have won some games without Henry, Close, Atkins, Miers, DeKoning, and Holmes in particular. They also allowed us to play Dangerfield and Selwood off the bench. Unbelievably important to our season.

From what I've seen (and I haven't seen every game), the effort Richmond have actually put in was great until the Gold Coast game. They fought harder against Collingwood than I'd seen in a fair while. And in none of those losses would I lay the blame at either Hopper or Taranto. But you've had veterans hit the wall (especially Cotchin), Martin playing well but converting terribly (and not taking the right option a few times), Bolton way down, a forward line that just isn't working without Lynch and if Riewoldt is quiet (and he's been pretty good really), then of course a batch of kids that look promising, but are making mistakes along the way.

You can't play every youngster, but for me, I'd pencil in Cumberland, Ryan, Ralphsmith, Clarke, and Young at least for the rest of the season. Gibcus as well when he's fit and I don't know what others you've got. They get at least 20 games this year. That will be invaluable.

 

[AFDogs]

Taranto should have stayed at GWS.

 

[Dangerousfield]

Salary cap and draft doing what it is intended, except for the cats.

Ah, the Costa Living Allowance at the Cattery

Richmond just having a bad stretch of games, will bounce back but don't have the team to go deep in finals any more. I'm sure that's recognised inside the club and forward planning will reflect that.

Look to have a lot of retirements at seasons end but not much draft ammo unless they trade out of the 2024 draft for a more immediate impact in this years draft.

 

[Obeanie1]

cant believe we had a draw against this pathetic club

Everyone else isn't surprised.

 

[Obeanie1]

time for dimma to walk i reckon, 14 seasons is a long time.

commit to a new start and try to regenerate the list, even if it means trading out players.

s**t for hopper and tarranto but they'll be well compensated.

Tigers started a rebuild two drafts ago.

They will continue to attract freee agents and trades.

They will go a slightly different route rebuilding to the Eagles.

Right now no one can tell who's doing better rebuilding but they will land another big win this week v Eagles.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Everyone else isn't surprised.

so you think you're a 100+ point worse side than Tiges?

 

[Bri_BriTheCAT]

I honestly don't think they are that far off the pace. It's pretty hard to stay motivated after 3 flags, especially when they have not known the pain of being runner up as so many teams do and it often is the fuel to go again. It's more just motivation and fitness at this point. Doubt they make finals given they would likely need 12 to 13 more wins out of 16 remaining games to make lower 8 but having a bad run might me the motivation they need because they still look so dangerous to me. I think they can still be a threat in 2024 if the use this to fuel themselves. But what do I know

 

[JackOutback]

Hawthorn, West Coast and Richmond all tried to load up for a final roll of the dice and all delayed their rebuild by a couple of years. Not saying any of them were wrong to do so, either. It really is a fine art deciding when the window is closing. But any club that wants to rebuild would want to get in before Tasmania join and the drafts become compromised. Hawks have done it, West Coast are doing it, Richmond would need to commit now.

 

[branedotorg]

Tigers started a rebuild two drafts ago.

They will continue to attract freee agents and trades.

They will go a slightly different route rebuilding to the Eagles.

Right now no one can tell who's doing better rebuilding but they will land another big win this week v Eagles.

i'm not concerned about the players they've drafted in the past few years, i'm saying it's time for dimma to go before it becomes another clarkson or sheedy trying to hold on at the expense of the next gen.

dimma still has it, i just think both sides need a fresh start.

 

[Obeanie1]

so you think you're a 100+ point worse side than Tiges?

We are about to find out this weekend.

 

[Trav 20]

With all due respect, this thread is delusional. Last time Richmond were told they need a rebuild was 2016, the year prior to 3 flags in 4 seasons.

I think Richmond have the core to build around and with some astute list management can bounce back reasonably well.

Whether that's in to flag contention is the question. Maybe.

But referencing Tarrant highlights one of your issues. Tarrant is 34. If you're relying on a 34 year old your key defensive stocks are very ordinary.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

The similarities to what is happening at Hawthorn are there for all to see.

Tried to top up with Hopper and Taranto but the older players are not hanging on and the kids are decent but not as good as they would like to believe. Dusty, Cotchin, Riewoldt and a few others are approaching or have gone off the cliff and the cupboard is relatively bare. It happens and is what the AFL hopes for once a team has had a sustained period of success.

Reckon they will end up bottom 6 this year and really fall away next season.