Richmond - time for a rebuild?

[MisterMarcus]

Who are some tradable assets for the Tigs they could afford to lose to get back into this draft? Have long had the best role players in the league and Carlton arguably the worst. I'm sure we'd love to get our hands on some if they could be shaken loose.

Baker, Bolton, Short, Cumberland and Graham the obvious ones for mine but not sure if any would be let go unless it was for massive overs.

As I said on the Trade board, they should look at trading their 2024 F1 for a bunch of picks this year.

If they're going the rebuild, there's every expectation that 2024 1st could be a Top 5 pick, so they might be able to wheedle a couple of picks at least in the 10s and 20s for it.

Then just go hard at the draft and aim to rise back up from 2026 or so....

 

[juss]

As I said on the Trade board, they should look at trading their 2024 F1 for a bunch of picks this year.

If they're going the rebuild, there's every expectation that 2024 1st could be a Top 5 pick, so they might be able to wheedle a couple of picks at least in the 10s and 20s for it.

Then just go hard at the draft and aim to rise back up from 2026 or so....

I'd actually do that (our 2024 1st for picks this year). But they'd have to be decent picks this year. I'd want 2 firsts, or one really good 1st and a pick in the low 20s.

 

[RAPPA]

Think they need to go all chips in to trade back in Mrs Hardwick. Seems like the wheels fell off when Dimma traded her out.

 

[Warwick]

I'd actually do that (our 2024 1st for picks this year). But they'd have to be decent picks this year. I'd want 2 firsts, or one really good 1st and a pick in the low 20s.

That’s a massive gamble for a team to do that trade with you and I’m not sure many/any would rush to do it.

Leaving the fact that current picks are more valuable than future ones as well.

 

[Nicho50]

Their midfield is one dimensional. God help them when Prestia returns.
Hopper, Taranto, Ross, McIntosh . . . there is no polish or finesse in there.
Add in cooked blokes like Martin, Cotchin & Pickett, tough times ahead.

Agreed , it's something Geelong will go through in about 12-24 months time also but that is the price you pay for success.

I am still in favour of the TT and Hopper deal, there is no guarantee an early first rounder will make it and given the list profile with potentially Dusty, Cotch, Jack, Grimes, Prestia finishing up this or next year we had no one in that middle age bracket to build around.

Its pretty evident watching our games that the additions of Hopper and TT into our midfield has thrown Dimma's game plan into a bit of all sorts, given the injuries also he has really had to throw around some player positions like Baker, Pickett and Balta in particular and instead of developing some forward line players he has tried to make shift forwards for years with midfielders that are bit part mid/ forward. The prime example of this was the treatment of Josh Caddy , a genuine mid sized forward who almost made the AA team in 18 then was thrown into a position that didn't suit him or his style.

Dimma won us 3 flags and great memories over that time but given the list we have now and where we are at its time for him to step aside and let someone else come in with a clean slate and new voice to take us forward.

 

[VinnieB]

= wins with the Hawks

 

[BF Tiger]

what would make this hard from a Tigers perspective is that they aren’t producing the sort of uncompetitive football that you get accustomed to seeing from teams ready to rebuild: they’ve competed in basically every game they’ve played to at least some extent so an optimistic coach would look at it and say that they only need a few tweaks and things can be on the up again.

They really haven’t been THAT bad though I didn’t watch today

They were THAT bad yesterday.

A lot of concern regarding the Tigers having no first rounder in this year’s draft. I’ll take Taranto over a speculative first rounder.

We can also look to get inventive Geelong style. Identify a player at another club being paid too much, take him off their hands along with their draft pick, smooth his salary put over a few years,…

Dusty’s massive contract ends 2024 and we’ll have a lot of dollars spare for other trade-ins for each retirement (Cotchin, Riewoldt, Grimes, etc etc) over the next 1-3 seasons.

So it could go either way really. Like all of drafting/recruiting at every club we just need to nail our picks.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

With all due respect, this thread is delusional. Last time Richmond were told they need a rebuild was 2016, the year prior to 3 flags in 4 seasons.

There is plenty of young talent on Richmond's list. The holes now and in the future exist in the toughest areas to fill, quality key forwards and a quality inside/outside ball using midfielder. This is to be expected after only having 4 top 10 draft picks at the club's disposal over the last 13 drafts. Those were used on Conca, Vlastuin, Prestia(in a trade) and Gibcus.

The team is not functioning well at the moment but it is lacking its most experienced back in Tarrant, elite key forward in Lynch and best and most experienced ruckman in Nankervis. Teams get injuries but it just means the club is forced to play 3-4 inexperienced or no properly prepared talls at the same time, and this is never going to be ideal.

The idea that Richmond will be looking to trade out established players for draft picks is not realistic. They will be looking to get at least one quality key forward as a free agent over coming seasons. And Richmond will also be hoping, realistically, some of the decent youngsters come on well over the next couple of seasons.

To describe the recruitment of Hopper and Taranto as a mistake is to say Cotchin, Martin/Bolton, Prestia and a kid or unsuitable player like Short or Graham is an acceptable midfield to run with in 2023 and beyond. The club sensibly recruited 2 very competent and strong bodied midfielders on very reasonably priced contracts, and paid the price on the term lengths. If a club lacking strong bodied inside mids was not prepared to do that when the opportunity presented you would have to ask what they are thinking.

The traditional gut the place and start again rebuild in a post free agent world is all but defunct. Hawthorn have almost been forced to do it and Carlton did before them, but you will see with the Hawks, just like the Blues did, and Adelaide, they will stockpile a bit of salary cap credit and start bringing in free agents and other ready made recruits on big contracts within a quite short time frame.

Richmond's best 22 currently looks something like this:

Back 7
Tarrant Balta Grimes
Vlastuin Broad Rioli Short

Wing 3
McIntosh Pickett Ross

Mid 4
Taranto Hopper Prestia Martin/Bolton

Rucks
Nankervis + Ryan or Soldo

Forward 7
Riewoldt Lynch Ryan/Soldo
Martin/Bolton, Graham, Rioli Jnr, Baker

I have left out Cumberland and Cotchin.

The bolded players look like imminent retirements, with some question marks around Grimes as well. But given reasonable fitness that is a team that could contend.

The club would be nuts to start thinking of selling off assets and going to the draft. Some very big contracts end in the foreseeable future:

2024 Prestia & Martin

2025 Lynch

So clearly the club will be looking at big money free agents and trades in the coming years. A lot of the rebuilding through the draft has already been done with D Rioli, Baker, Bolton, Balta, Graham, Ross, Cumberland, Rioli Jnr, Ryan, Gibcus, Sonsie all drafted since 2015, all established in the best 22 or on the fringes of it already, and Hopper and Taranto were originally drafted within that window as well. You would bet good money that at least 3-4 others drafted in recent years will become decent AFL players as well. So you add a couple of free agents or mature recruits to that over coming seasons, there is absolutely no reason to think the club would be uncompetitive.

The thread is way off track.

 

[Toump Ass]

Shoulda flogged off Martin for some first round picks while he still had currency.
Cooked now.

 

[Partridge]

Taranto & Hopper been our better players this season if you have actually watched them play & not listened to Kane Cornes.
Fact is players around them have been shot to pieces the cliff has come for a lot of players Cotch, Prestia, Grimes, Vlastuin. Riewoldt probably playing the best out of the older players but in saying that he looked old against the Gold Coast.

The club internally wouldn't have seen this "Drop off" even Geelong, people in the media were saying 3 weeks ago "the Cats are cooked" but they have been able to steady & win games.

The Richmond games I've watched I've thought exactly the same thing. Neither are superstars, but they aren't spuds either. They're good solid players, and they're playing good solid games.

The problems from the view of a neutral are no forward line, that is while Lynch is out and if Riewoldt isn't contributing (and he's been solid this year until yesterday). When you do get it forward your conversion is ordinary. Cumberland looks like he's improved a lot, but whoever taught him the stupid sidestep in his set shot routine should be flung off a bridge. It's pretty obvious there's a lot to like about Ryan, Clarke, Cumberland, Young, and Miller at the very least. But they're raw, so you'll get mistakes.

You need Bolton firing too. I reckon he's slipped back to being more flashy and less grunt. He makes a massive difference in ball use, and he kicks goals. Him being out of sorts hasn't helped either. I've got no animosity towards Cotchin and I get that 300 is a big deal, but he really shouldn't be out there now. I suppose every club does it these days.

 

[RonnieRaven]

Shoulda flogged off Martin for some first round picks while he still had currency.
Cooked now.

They would have had to pay a club draft picks or his wage to get rid of him.
Like Fyfe on huge contracts but have earned it for services at their club.
They’re probably not worth half that to other clubs.

 

[MisterMarcus]

I'd actually do that (our 2024 1st for picks this year). But they'd have to be decent picks this year. I'd want 2 firsts, or one really good 1st and a pick in the low 20s.

Personally I was thinking more getting 3-4 picks in the 20s kind of range.

I've always felt rebuilding teams should go for getting multiple potentially 'very good' players in that Pick 15-30 range (either draft or trade) who can fill multiple holes in the list, instead of getting one Top 5 'superstar' who can't do everything on their own.

 

[tiger_tough]

Traded their future first as part of the Taranto/Hopper deal which will set them back for years

They were separate deals. Taranto had nothing to do with this years picks. He was effectively traded for pick 12 last year and Callum-Coleman Jones. That's a good deal. The Hopper trade on the other hand....

 

[Red Bull]

Deranged coach vibes as well.

That’s the first piece of business I’d be attending to at Richmond.
Hardwick has run his race and whichever way the club approach things from here, he’s not part of it …

 

[Orange crush]

There’s a few I’d keep - Grimes, Martin, Nank - but Cotchin shouldn’t play another game. He’s not up to it.

Riewoldt gets to play out the year because his presence helps.

Cotchin is just in the ******* way

As much as Cotchin irks me the tigers will deservedly get him to 300

 

[HTPunter]

They will play Cotchin to 300 and that is fair enough. His selection in the short term isn't going to make a difference to the path they are on.

6 games less into kids, plus it’s a bit of a joke in where performance gets you - if you’re in the VFL busting a gut but can’t get a spot because Cotch 300 where’s the incentive until he’s played 300?

Next year do they carry Dusty to 300 games even if his game goes down another couple of levels?

 

[QuietB]

Bolton's not young. He was 2016 draft I think? Correct me if I'm wrong

It doesn't even matter if he is young - you don't build a club around players like Bolton no matter how good they are.

You build clubs around players like Dusty, Cotchin, Riewoldt, even Grimes. All those blokes are at the end and declining. Tom Lynch is the only current superstar they have left and you need 4/5 of them to win premierships.

Richmond are making the very same mistakes Hawthorn made. But the alternative is you trade players like Bolton which no one would seriously do.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

They paid up 2x first rounders for a brunette James Worpel

5

James Worpel

Age

25

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.5

5star

K

12.2

5star

HB

11.3

5star

M

2.9

3star

T

4.5

5star

CL

5.1

5star

No current season stats available

D

15.6

4star

K

6.2

3star

HB

9.4

5star

M

1.0

1star

T

3.2

5star

CL

1.8

4star

.

Luckily they took a slab of kids in 2021, otherwise they’d be in lot more trouble.

 

[QuietB]

Taranto & Hopper been our better players this season if you have actually watched them play & not listened to Kane Cornes.
Fact is players around them have been shot to pieces the cliff has come for a lot of players Cotch, Prestia, Grimes, Vlastuin. Riewoldt probably playing the best out of the older players but in saying that he looked old against the Gold Coast.

The club internally wouldn't have seen this "Drop off" even Geelong, people in the media were saying 3 weeks ago "the Cats are cooked" but they have been able to steady & win games.

Geelong do still have 4 superstars fit and firing - Danger, Hawkins, Cameron and Stewart.

The mistake in Richmond getting Taranto and Hopper is not that they are not good players. They are. It is that Richmond spent assets to get them and those assets maybe could have got the superstars they need to replace.

Holding the draft picks is not a guarantee, but we know Taranto and Hopper are not superstars.

The reason Richmond made this mistake is they still have Dusty, Cotchin, Riewoldt and Lynch and legitimately thought they were still contending. But they are not - Cotchin, Dusty and Riewoldt are all massively down on output - which is perfectly normal given the phase of their careers.

 

[Roachy8]

They got West Coast at the G next week. Just what the doctor ordered, if you ask me

For West Coast perhaps.

 

[Warwick]

The reason Richmond made this mistake is they still have Dusty, Cotchin, Riewoldt and Lynch and legitimately thought they were still contending. But they are not - Cotchin, Dusty and Riewoldt are all massively down on output - which is perfectly normal given the phase of their careers.

There’s those in here who actually still believe this.

That’s the problem - it hasn’t sunk in yet.

 

[My Tilly]

Agreed , it's something Geelong will go through in about 12-24 months time also but that is the price you pay for success.

I think we are experiencing this right now which is why any moment Dangerfield has a poor game, you immediately see the results. He is still the one player who can break the lines and bulldoze his way through congestion.

Having said that, Geelong have been here before when it was just Selwood and a batch of newcomers who had not yet become elite midfielders (Duncan, Guthrie).
We were forced into playing Stokes & Johnson through the middle. We had hopes for Christensen, Caddy, Murdoch, Schroder, Hunt, Horlin-Smith and rucks Simpson/West. None of them amounted too anything.
We tried to lure Travis Boak. We thought Jack Steven was going give years of solid service.

However, recent draft acquisitions has me pretty optimistic about our future.
Not only the progress they are making in the VFL but the timing in which they will be called upon to hold their own. That is key to it all.
Not to mention the potential of securing free agents in the coming years.

 

[SplintWhisky]

The Richmond games I've watched I've thought exactly the same thing. Neither are superstars, but they aren't spuds either. They're good solid players, and they're playing good solid games.

The problems from the view of a neutral are no forward line, that is while Lynch is out and if Riewoldt isn't contributing (and he's been solid this year until yesterday). When you do get it forward your conversion is ordinary. Cumberland looks like he's improved a lot, but whoever taught him the stupid sidestep in his set shot routine should be flung off a bridge. It's pretty obvious there's a lot to like about Ryan, Clarke, Cumberland, Young, and Miller at the very least. But they're raw, so you'll get mistakes.

You need Bolton firing too. I reckon he's slipped back to being more flashy and less grunt. He makes a massive difference in ball use, and he kicks goals. Him being out of sorts hasn't helped either. I've got no animosity towards Cotchin and I get that 300 is a big deal, but he really shouldn't be out there now. I suppose every club does it these days.

I would shudder to think how worse our year would look with a center bounce rotation of Prestia, Bolton, Ross, Short, Baker, Cotchin and maybe either Dow and Sonsie.

 

[SplintWhisky]

I think we are experiencing this right now which is why any moment Dangerfield has a poor game, you immediately see the results. He is still the one player who can break the lines and bulldoze his way through congestion.

Having said that, Geelong have been here before when it was just Selwood and a batch of newcomers who had not yet become elite midfielders (Duncan, Guthrie).
We were forced into playing Stokes & Johnson through the middle. We had hopes for Christensen, Caddy, Murdoch, Schroder, Hunt, Horlin-Smith and rucks Simpson/West. None of them amounted too anything.
We tried to lure Travis Boak. We thought Jack Steven was going give years of solid service.

However, recent draft acquisitions has me pretty optimistic about our future.
Not only the progress they are making in the VFL but the timing in which they will be called upon to hold their own. That is key to it all.
Not to mention the potential of securing free agents in the coming years.

I think an often underplayed issue with the Cats which is the same as the Tigers is the leadership aspect. Selwood, even when he was breaking down was able to pull some inspirational moment out of his arse which would lift the rest of the team. The tigers are lacking strong leadership as well. Young made a mistake and none of the leaders at the club went to talk to him or even try help out with reinforcing good behaviour.

 

[Tackle Bag]

The rebuild on the run started 2 years ago. Right or wrong, the club believes it has a strong crop of kids from drafts prior to the Hopper & Taranto deals so missing the top end of one years draft is far from catastrophic. I tend to agree

The clubs list management over the last decade or so has been among the best in the league. Time will tell if they’ve got this right. I don’t mind the work they’ve done so far, in fact I think we may be in a better position if some of our younger players had been allowed to take over roles in the seniors sooner