Autopsy Rnd 5, Hawthorn vs Swans, Aurora Stadium 29th April

[Hawkwombat]

Hawks were obviously tired today, but has everyone forgotten the slogfest in the west last week? Even the weagles were nearly overrun by the tiges! In saying that tho, I agree clarko has to seriously look at reverting to position based footy for buddy and his main stars! Time to go, and thanx for your service: Ossie, Lads and chance. Was very disappointed today but will reserve final judgement on season till I see their response against saints! Go hawks!!!

 

[db swannie]

Lol Gibson didn't play the second half due to injury but i would hardly think that was the problem. Getting smashed in the middle and not to take anything from Sydney but I think we just looked fatigued and Sydney being the good side they are took full toll and took control of the game

The west factor could be a real issue, true. I thought Gibson made it to 3/4 time though? He was definitely hampered. And we lost Malceski at half time as well too...

 

[TheFourPillars]

The west factor could be a real issue, true. I thought Gibson made it to 3/4 time though? He was definitely hampered. And we lost Malceski at half time as well too...

To be honest mate there are no excuses we weren't goo enough today for 4 qtrs and thats why we lost the game. You guys played better for longer

 

[Hawkwombat]

Breust will mark THAT cross from Rioli a thousand times in his sleep tonight!!!

 

[asanque]

Just not good enough and hard to see any excuses.

I'm sick of our game plan and I'd like our players to play in their best positions.

Franklin and Roughead forward with Rioli and Breust crumbing.

Hale as ruckman with McCauley as support. (Edit: With Bailey injured, I still think Renouf would have been our best ruckman)

Lewis, Mitchell, Hodge, Burgoyne in the midfield.

Savage, Shiels on the wings.

Our recruitment has been average in the last few years and if Clarkson can't deliver top 4, there are plenty of other coaches who can.

Kennedy.....

 

[Hawkwombat]

Yeah! Who was the muppett who traded Kennedy!

 

[Adebisi]

Sorry mods I posted this comment in the wrong thread earlier and am reporting in the correct thread.

I find it super hard watching buddy these days. He cannot win a 1 on 1 contest in the air. His hands are poor marking the ball over head, or out in front of him. He is also poor marking the ball on his chest. It seems he has become worse over time with his marking. Fair to note that he no longer plays a leading forward role and the ball movement into the forward line is super slow, (as is the gameplay in a sense, or at least as a result of the game plan) and buddy is often trying to take marks in a pack of players, which has never been his strong suit.
A big part of it comes down to gameplan and the instructions of the forwards etc. it's a massive can of worms to open regarding game plan, but clarkson has chosen that we need to protect our weaknesses rather than exploit our strengths...problem is, if the weaknesses aren't being protected and that gameplan breaks down, there is no flexibility to open it up the other way and try to take advantage of those strengths.
A classic case that illustrates it was when buddy was streaming through the centre toward goal and had nothing to kick to, and a fast break that could have been turned into a goal if we had forwards on a lead, turned into us kicking it backwards 30 m out from Sydney's goal....like I said, can of worms though.

And harder to comment when watching on tv instead of being at the ground.

 

[lethalselbow]

Just not good enough and hard to see any excuses.

I'm sick of our game plan and I'd like our players to play in their best positions.

Franklin and Roughead forward with Rioli and Breust crumbing.

Hale as ruckman with McCauley as support. (Edit: With Bailey injured, I still think Renouf would have been our best ruckman)

Lewis, Mitchell, Hodge, Burgoyne in the midfield.

Savage, Shiels on the wings.

Our recruitment has been average in the last few years and if Clarkson can't deliver top 4, there are plenty of other coaches who can.

Kennedy.....

Works for me. Like the rest of what you say, too. Disappointing day. Was always on the cards after a crash fest vs West Coast.

As usual, the same over reactions from the same spuds. It ain't smelling of roses, but it's not stinking yet.

 

[Adebisi]

Outscored 98-36 after going up 33-8

What the hell are we doing???

Turning point for me, or when I realised we were going to let it slip again, was when Cyril squared it up to Bruest. Fantastic vision from Cyril, hit Bruest right on the damn chest, and he flat out dropped it, Sydney ran down the other end and goaled. 12-point turnaround.

Gave them hope, they ran harder and wanted the ball more. I turned to my mate and said "We're in trouble here."

I thought we had a pretty tough early draw, but you know what; good sides have to beat other good sides. We're not the Western Bulldogs circa 98-99.

Or are we???

Bruest has real problems in terms of fumbling. Some players are just one touch, one grab types, bruest isn't.

 

[PNess]

Bruest has real problems in terms of fumbling. Some players are just one touch, one grab types, bruest isn't.

Whether it's the case or not, Bruest can be hard to watch, looks as if he doesn't play with a hell of a lot of passion.

Repeated bonehead mistakes that needs to be eliminated from his game.

 

[Thaihawk]

A very puzzling point for me was the numbers around center bounces. Sydney won nearly every one, and seemed to have more numbers than Hawthorn. However, on the odd occasion we did clear the ball, Sydney still managed to double-team Buddy! How?

Rougey should have stayed as our target in the forward square. What other coach would move a player from a position when he has kicked five goals in a half?

With a few exceptions, the whole team looked weary and tired. Hope there is no trouble in the camp!

Still believe we can compete, and hopefully we have had our bad game for the season.

 

[grizzlym]

but clarkson has chosen that we need to protect our weaknesses rather than exploit our strengths

That is a very interesting and, dare I say, astute observation. Very well put. It sums up some of the bizarre things we're doing. it seems that with this belief that we have to be multi-dimensional and not too reliant on Buddy, that we're getting Buddy to play increasingly away from goals. If you like, eschew what he does naturally and that is kick goals. Or to apply your above desription, acknowledge the possible weakness, and try to avoid it. Eg. 'yes, they will double team and crowd Buddy if he stays close to goal and leads.... so lets push him up the ground, and get him to cut back...' And so it goes. Resulting in a reduced out-put and, worryingly, every goal being a high degree of difficult. Buddy gets no bread and butter forward goals anymore.

I've been teeing off all afternoon and most of the night about this arvo's loss. While we, as in the club and most on this board, me included, underestimated the Swans, our performance today was horrible. Seriously embarrassing.

I actually thought Breust was very good in the first half. 8 tackles, veryg good pressure, defensively miles ahead of where he was last year. His finishing has deserted him. Strange you mention fumbling because when I saw him come through his sureness of ball handling was exceptional.

I could go on and no, dishes to be washed, dogs to be kicked....

 

[hawksfan71]

Well, the daylight that existed between us and the top sides is now the summer solstice in the Arctic Circle

Hardly so, beat pies convincingly, one kick loss to cats, one kick loss to eagles in wa, and a bad loss today but really, at least Ruff got some goals. If we had a proper forward structure then maybe we would have won, but cant take away the grueling game last Sunday in swamp like conditions in WA.

 

[hawksfan71]

When did Clarko put Pops on as super sub? Did he leave it till the game was over again?

 

[SA HAWK]

Hardly so, beat pies convincingly, one kick loss to cats, one kick loss to eagles in wa, and a bad loss today but really, at least Ruff got some goals. If we had a proper forward structure then maybe we would have won, but cant take away the grueling game last Sunday in swamp like conditions in WA.

No we wouldn't because our midfield got absolutely spanked in the 2nd half.

 

[m0zza]

Sorry mods I posted this comment in the wrong thread earlier and am reporting in the correct thread.

I find it super hard watching buddy these days. He cannot win a 1 on 1 contest in the air. His hands are poor marking the ball over head, or out in front of him. He is also poor marking the ball on his chest. It seems he has become worse over time with his marking. Fair to note that he no longer plays a leading forward role and the ball movement into the forward line is super slow, (as is the gameplay in a sense, or at least as a result of the game plan) and buddy is often trying to take marks in a pack of players, which has never been his strong suit.
A big part of it comes down to gameplan and the instructions of the forwards etc. it's a massive can of worms to open regarding game plan, but clarkson has chosen that we need to protect our weaknesses rather than exploit our strengths...problem is, if the weaknesses aren't being protected and that gameplan breaks down, there is no flexibility to open it up the other way and try to take advantage of those strengths.
A classic case that illustrates it was when buddy was streaming through the centre toward goal and had nothing to kick to, and a fast break that could have been turned into a goal if we had forwards on a lead, turned into us kicking it backwards 30 m out from Sydney's goal....like I said, can of worms though.

I remember that one.
The only option was for Buddy to run and carry, take on the tackler, two or three bounces and kick the goal himself....like the best player in the Under 13s.
But now he follows team rules.....

 

[Adebisi]

That is a very interesting and, dare I say, astute observation. Very well put. It sums up some of the bizarre things we're doing. it seems that with this belief that we have to be multi-dimensional and not too reliant on Buddy, that we're getting Buddy to play increasingly away from goals. If you like, eschew what he does naturally and that is kick goals. Or to apply your above desription, acknowledge the possible weakness, and try to avoid it. Eg. 'yes, they will double team and crowd Buddy if he stays close to goal and leads.... so lets push him up the ground, and get him to cut back...' And so it goes. Resulting in a reduced out-put and, worryingly, every goal being a high degree of difficult. Buddy gets no bread and butter forward goals anymore.

I've been teeing off all afternoon and most of the night about this arvo's loss. While we, as in the club and most on this board, me included, underestimated the Swans, our performance today was horrible. Seriously embarrassing.

I actually thought Breust was very good in the first half. 8 tackles, veryg good pressure, defensively miles ahead of where he was last year. His finishing has deserted him. Strange you mention fumbling because when I saw him come through his sureness of ball handling was exceptional.

I could go on and no, dishes to be washed, dogs to be kicked....

Without starting a circle jerk here, well put grizzly. There are heaps of thoughts on the method/style of play, but I guess it should be a new thread. It's such a pertinent point about buddy getting no bread and butter goals anymore...and as you said, there are clear reasons for it. Despite what is a massive topic on its own, to jum ahead a bit, the question I ask is if this continues to be a problem and just isn't working....would clarkson change it, and if so how long would it take. One of clarksons strengths is his stubbornness and rigidness in sticking to his guns, it's also his biggest weakness. Will be interesting to see what, if anything changes.

As for bruest, I'll say this - it isn't necessarily his hands as such as it is his mind. You can almost see his brain has moved ahead of the moment, thinking about what is next, forgetting the moment he is in...e.g taking a simple chest mark. His level of focus and concentration isn't quite steely enough for mine.

 

[A Diakos]

The stench of the 95-2004 era, where the club lived off the back of the greatest era in football (71-91), has still not been completely eradicated. That 95-2004 bought an era of "party pretty boys" who were ultimately mentally feeble and not strong or hard enough in the mind too even contemplate any heights of glory, (crawford and salmon excluded)....it appeared we had completely turned it around in 2008.

The Swans are a professional well drilled well coached disciplined unit...there honest and a pretty good team with a couple of guns (kennedy included)

We were out coached today (again), we r mental marshmallows, and we don't do the fundamentals of football well....ur doomed if u can't show fight, will, spirit and a desire and BELIEF in winning.

Our birthright is to be the best...thats the attitude and weight every servant of hawthorn should feel from 60,000 members...in 1989, 3/4 time premiership players were prepared to put there lives on the line literally (e.g. dipper) for back to back flags, yes its 2012, but the fundamentals of football are always the same, just ask and refer to the lions of 2001-3 and the current cats team

these current players and coaches are very well paid, they deserve the blowtorch, as our fundamentals as a club are not aligned to greatness, I'm not seeing any hurt after that prelim loss, I'm not seeing any change after 4 years of poor losses to the cats in the same manner. All i'm seeing is nothing but flashbacks of that stenchy era (95-2004) that was a blight on our club

 

[Hawkwombat]

That is a very interesting and, dare I say, astute observation. Very well put. It sums up some of the bizarre things we're doing. it seems that with this belief that we have to be multi-dimensional and not too reliant on Buddy, that we're getting Buddy to play increasingly away from goals. If you like, eschew what he does naturally and that is kick goals. Or to apply your above desription, acknowledge the possible weakness, and try to avoid it. Eg. 'yes, they will double team and crowd Buddy if he stays close to goal and leads.... so lets push him up the ground, and get him to cut back...' And so it goes. Resulting in a reduced out-put and, worryingly, every goal being a high degree of difficult. Buddy gets no bread and butter forward goals anymore.

I've been teeing off all afternoon and most of the night about this arvo's loss. While we, as in the club and most on this board, me included, underestimated the Swans, our performance today was horrible. Seriously embarrassing.

I actually thought Breust was very good in the first half. 8 tackles, veryg good pressure, defensively miles ahead of where he was last year. His finishing has deserted him. Strange you mention fumbling because when I saw him come through his sureness of ball handling was exceptional.

I could go on and no, dishes to be washed, dogs to be kicked....

Damn dude! Kudos to any fellow supporter who uses the word ' eschew'! That's a voice definitely worth listening to!!!

 

[go hawks!!!]

I could go on and no, dishes to be washed, dogs to be kicked....

WTF, to quote Chopper Reid, I ought to call the RSPCA on you!

You kick a dog and i'll kick you!

 

[grizzlym]

What you have brought up though, is something more fundamental. It's more than strategy or tactics, you've potentially laid bare the thinking that underpins everything. Or, more precisely, the general outlook. And that would appear to be negative.

With a guy like Buddy, you'd be giving him as many opportunities as you could to score.... and if the opposition load up on him, well, in theory you've got Cyril and Roughy there to clean up.

As for Breust: yes, agree, he looks like he's thinking too much almost. which given he's been hammered for 2 years on his defensive game, probably the case. Probably just needs to relax into it a bit.

You probably know this Adebisi, but whoever the hell the Swans have as a ruck coach should be thrown as much money as possible and shipped to hawthorn. They consistently develop competitive ruckmen out of seemingly mediocre material. To get that game out of Seaby was immense. No world beater but much better than that soft spud of a couple of years ago.

 

[Hawkwombat]

The stench of the 95-2004 era, where the club lived off the back of the greatest era in football (71-91), has still not been completely eradicated. That 95-2004 bought an era of "party pretty boys" who were ultimately mentally feeble and not strong or hard enough in the mind too even contemplate any heights of glory, (crawford and salmon excluded)....it appeared we had completely turned it around in 2008.

The Swans are a professional well drilled well coached disciplined unit...there honest and a pretty good team with a couple of guns (kennedy included)

We were out coached today (again), we r mental marshmallows, and we don't do the fundamentals of football well....ur doomed if u can't show fight, will, spirit and a desire and BELIEF in winning.

Our birthright is to be the best...thats the attitude and weight every servant of hawthorn should feel from 60,000 members...in 1989, 3/4 time premiership players were prepared to put there lives on the line literally (e.g. dipper) for back to back flags, yes its 2012, but the fundamentals of football are always the same, just ask and refer to the lions of 2001-3 and the current cats team

these current players and coaches are very well paid, they deserve the blowtorch, as our fundamentals as a club are not aligned to greatness, I'm not seeing any hurt after that prelim loss, I'm not seeing any change after 4 years of poor losses to the cats in the same manner. All i'm seeing is nothing but flashbacks of that stenchy era (95-2004) that was a blight on our club

Well said sir!!! Agree big time. Less pretty, more ugly and effective football required!!!

 

[hawksfan71]

I reckon the hawkers got on the 8/1 odds of the swans, its from that point on it all changed around!

 

[blackhead&boil]

No we wouldn't because our midfield got absolutely spanked in the 2nd half.

the abandoned forward line effects what happens in the middle of the ground. see my post on page 9.

Without starting a circle jerk here, well put grizzly. There are heaps of thoughts on the method/style of play, but I guess it should be a new thread. It's such a pertinent point about buddy getting no bread and butter goals anymore...and as you said, there are clear reasons for it. Despite what is a massive topic on its own, to jum ahead a bit, the question I ask is if this continues to be a problem and just isn't working....would clarkson change it, and if so how long would it take. One of clarksons strengths is his stubbornness and rigidness in sticking to his guns, it's also his biggest weakness. Will be interesting to see what, if anything changes.

As for bruest, I'll say this - it isn't necessarily his hands as such as it is his mind. You can almost see his brain has moved ahead of the moment, thinking about what is next, forgetting the moment he is in...e.g taking a simple chest mark. His level of focus and concentration isn't quite steely enough for mine.

there already is a thread about this. http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=935193

it has been a major tactical error from AC for a couple of seasons now. buddy's midfield ventures started out as an occasional tactic to keep the opposition on their toes. these days he briefly wanders forward as a variation to his routine.

people often criticise his inaccurate goal kicking as a reason why he is not useful as a pure forward but I call bullsnot on that. I honestly don't care how many behinds it takes for him to kick 6 goals a game.

and the midfield role is reducing his kicking and marking ability. a few seasons ago 90% of his disposals were shots at goal, often from beyond 50m. these days the majority of his disposals are wobbling it sideways to the wings or trying to pull off an amazing solo run through the middle of the ground, only to be tackled. (has this EVER worked for him since those two goals against the bombers?)

I can understand the need to take ruffy away to assist with ruck and HB duties, but the misuse of buddy and rioli is criminal. an absolute waste of their extraordinary talents...

 

[hawkman]

I could go on and no, dishes to be washed, dogs to be kicked....

Hi Hame

Why did the ruckman decide to try and belt the ball away from the ruck contests instead of tapping to same spots for Sydney to take it away?

The fact that Franklin is spent is most likely affecting his accuracy. He has never been great but 11.18 is terrible