Ross Lyon- Hate Thread.

[RegHickeyStand]

Is this true, that Freo approached Lyon on the 3rd of Sep?

I heard Lyon made the first approach weeks before that.

Also the timing of the Saints board making the offer then straight away Freo sacking Harvey sounds like:

Lyon: They are going to offer me the contract I asked for. I can't stall that. Act quick.

Freo: OK. We'll sack Harvey today.

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Loyalty should count for something, as it should with the players.

Our players can get better offers elsewhere from time to time. Where the Saints are genuinely trying to be reasonable with contracts, I'd like to think they would stay.

The position of players and coach are not comparable in the relevant respect. The coach - certainly in our case - was involved in the leadership of the club in a manner that the players are not. Where there is an irreconcilable difference between coach and club in the running of the football department then the professional thing to do is to depart as soon as possible.

I have no issue with your point that the club were genuinely trying to be reasonable with the contract. My point is that the manner in which they handled the matter was amateurish, embarrassing and damaging.

To say that a coach should show "loyalty" by sticking with a club whose administration he considers incompetent and whose culture he has been unable to change is to consent to a lifetime of perpetual mediocrity.

 

[underthestars]

cirippa you can spin it any way you want - you're interpreting unknowables in line with what you want to believe. so are we all - but most are giving the club the benefit of the doubt here based on what we do know - that lyon cut and ran in the most deceitful way possible. no honesty with his employers, no honesty to his playing group, no loyalty shown whatsoever.
we are the saints and we should show pride in our motto and not let it hang like a bit of word art under the cross. lyon hasn't the moral fortitude to live by such a motto - fair enough, he can f... off!

 

[Saintland]

I have no issue with your point that the club were genuinely trying to be reasonable with the contract. My point is that the manner in which they handled the matter was amateurish, embarrassing and damaging.

To say that a coach should show "loyalty" by sticking with a club whose administration he considers incompetent and whose culture he has been unable to change is to consent to a lifetime of perpetual mediocrity.

What??? If you really believe that Lyin would have re-signed in April, you are kidding yourself. He wanted out of Saints and got Walls to do a lot of his dirty work via the media-he was just hoping somebody, anybody wanted him.
Lyin' left for more money-the farce of him going through "the process" negotiating exactly the deal he wanted with Saints (according to his then management) while negotiating privately with Fremantle, sums this scumbag up. Good coach though.

 

[StFly]

cirippa you can spin it any way you want - you're interpreting unknowables in line with what you want to believe. so are we all -

Personally I'm more trying to ferret out the truth from what snibbets I can get, I'm sure others are as well in a much better position to me (contact wise as an eg), the individuals assuming context are primarily those fueling these types of threads or speaking out on things like talk back radio. The rest of us are (more than likely) fine with the decision made, disappointed in how it was seemingly executed, and merely trying to piece together the particulars.

Generally, what the media should be doing instead of mounting horses and hurling javelins.

 

[Plugger35]

Yeah I don't buy this crap from Lyon that he left because we took too long to give him the contract he wanted. According to his management and the Saints admin they put contract talks on hold until the season had finished. Just a few days after the season finished he was given the contract he was asking for so it wasn't like the Saints admin dragged their feet.

The fact is he was offered a more financially attractive offer with Freo, of course they didn't take as long to put their offer together when they had limited time to do it. St Kilda had Lyon contracted for next year so had time up their sleeve to put their offer together, probably naively assuming that Lyon would show some loyalty and good faith towards a club that gave him his start as an AFL senior coach.

Lyon is within his rights to take up a better offer if he wants and he has the get out clause to do so but he could have at least been honest about his reasons for leaving rather than putting the blame at the hands of St Kilda. He was contracted for next year and the club had an offer of a new contract on the table by Wednesday after repeatedly saying that they wanted him to stay on long term as St Kilda coach.

If he wanted to stay he could have taken our offer, he wasn't being kicked out the door and treated badly. He simply chose to take up what he saw as a better, more lucrative offer. It's his decision but I don't like the dishonest way he has gone about it and left our club in the lurch when the St Kilda players, supporters and admin have been nothing but supportive of him. Could have been handled a lot better with him leaving on much better terms, as it is he has burnt a few bridges and lost a few friends which is something he'll have to live with.

 

[Squizz]

Great post, Plugger. Many valid points there.

 

[goodie23]

mer·ce·nar·y/ˈmərsəˌnerē/

Adjective: (of a person or their behaviour) Primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics.

Says it all really

 

[saintsrfreak]

mer·ce·nar·y/ˈmərsəˌnerē/

Adjective: (of a person or their behaviour) Primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics.

Says it all really

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Grant Thomas would have no conceivable idea as to the particulars of discussioned between Lyon, Lyons management, any director at the St Kilda Football club or any decision that Nettleford made in regards to any contractual alterations because he is Grant Thomas and not involved in any of the decisions made.

The very minute you have an individual in the media asserting that they are aware of contract particulars it should send up warning flares they are talking through their rectums.

Fly, I have no regard for Grant Thomas and no illusions as to his credibility. It is no secret that I detest the man.

His statements were quoted by me not as evidence of the truth of their contents, but to raise a reasonable doubt as to Lyon's guilt. It is entirely possible and consistent with other facts that what Thomas says occurred did in fact occur. At all events, there is no convincing evidence that it did not. Certainly I would be eager to hear testimony from Lenny Hayes as a credible witness for the defence.

In the meantime, given what I know and have long admired about Lyon's character, based on his 5 years at St Kilda, coupled with my refusal to draw conclusions as to the nature of discussions none of us was privy to, that entitles Lyon in my book to a verdict of "not guilty".

Of course that is heresy.

And here right on cue comes comrade underthestars. He has proclaimed, in the best traditions of the mob in the French Revolution, that: "lyon cut and ran in the most deceitful way possible. no honesty with his employers, no honesty to his playing group, no loyalty shown whatsoever." Besides he is a mercenary. And we all now know thanks to goodie23 precisely what that word means.

Guilty as charged. Off with his head. In the name of the people.

 

[phantom13]

Fly, I have no regard for Grant Thomas and no illusions as to his credibility. It is no secret that I detest the man.

His statements were quoted by me not as evidence of the truth of their contents, but to raise a reasonable doubt as to Lyon's guilt. It is entirely possible and consistent with other facts that what Thomas says occurred did in fact occur. At all events, there is no convincing evidence that it did not. Certainly I would be eager to hear testimony from Lenny Hayes as a credible witness for the defence.

In the meantime, given what I know and have long admired about Lyon's character, based on his 5 years at St Kilda, coupled with my refusal to draw conclusions as to the nature of discussions none of us was privy to, that entitles Lyon in my book to a verdict of "not guilty".

Of course that is heresy.

And here right on cue comes comrade underthestars. He has proclaimed, in the best traditions of the mob in the French Revolution, that: "lyon cut and ran in the most deceitful way possible. no honesty with his employers, no honesty to his playing group, no loyalty shown whatsoever." Besides he is a mercenary. And we all now know thanks to goodie23 precisely what that word means.

Guilty as charged. Off with his head. In the name of the people.

Your being a touch naive about all of this if you genuinely believe a man would up and bail on his contract on a whim after less than a week of discussions, especially given the nature of a professional football club. Regardless i am with you on not blaming Ross, the man took a better deal when it came his way, fair play to him, but for him to sit and take shots at the footy club that took him from an assistant coach to respected senior coach (yes i realise he did as much for us as we did for him and owes us nothing) smacks of arrogance and poor character, he showed more in his acceptance of the new role than he did he departing his old one. Thats my take at least.

 

[Simon Templar]

The only reason Lyon went to Fremantle is a better prospect of winning a flag. All this career coach crap & doing it for the sake of his family is just a smoke screen. I bet his wife & kids didn't go "yipee, we're moving to W.A." Sure money is an enticement but Lyon has said it heaps ... he hates losing.

Lyon is one of AFL's finest coaches but his arrogance is comparable to Mick Malthouse. Lyon's distain for the media does him no favours. He must forget that when he speaks to the media he is also speaking to the fans as well.

I don't think Lyon is a mercenary, he's just a guy that's driven to win & there is no place for loyalty in his world.

His biggest failure at St Kilda, in my opinion, was not playing enough young players, not so much this year because he had no choice but in 2009 & 2010 he was playing injured players when he should have been laying the foundations for the clubs future & longevity by introducing some younger players to AFL.

Freo's gain & our loss but I'm not sad he's gone ... Looking forward to a fresh start next year.

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Shame I just executed Lyon for blatant dishonesty to his players.

Riewoldt reckons the players had expected Lyon to be at the club next year but he never directly told them that he would be.

What is worse, he has the cheek to imply that the club should have moved faster to lock Lyon into a secure contract.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl.../story-e6frf3e3-1226140207267?from=public_rss

The man clearly loves Lyon and is dumb enough to believe he acted with integrity.

Bad move. Off with his head. In the name of the people.

When WILL these people understand that St Kilda's handling of the small matter of the signing up of our Senior Coach was admirable for its display of seriousness and devotion to duty?

If only Lyon had the brains to accommodate himself to their lofty standards, he might still be alive today.

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Oh no! Now Brendon Bloody Goddard decides to come out with this:

"Fellow Saints star Brendon Goddard also expressed his disappointment, saying Lyon was a quality coach and person [that's treason right there] and someone the club did not want to lose.

"It's quite disappointing it had to get to this stage.

"As you well may know, the negotiations started months back. It's sad it would get to this point," Goddard told the Nine Network's Sunday Footy Show.

Goddard said he wanted the next Saints coach to embody some of Lyon's characteristics.

"Someone that like Ross is very demanding and holds us to high standards," he said.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/freman...s-afls-saints-let-lyon-go-20110918-1kfq7.html

I for one have full faith that our executive will succeed in its endeavours to find a Ross-Lyon clone to replace Ross Lyon, thereby satisfying the needs and wishes of our gun players.

 

[Plugger35]

The only reason Lyon went to Fremantle is a better prospect of winning a flag. All this career coach crap & doing it for the sake of his family is just a smoke screen. I bet his wife & kids didn't go "yipee, we're moving to W.A." Sure money is an enticement but Lyon has said it heaps ... he hates losing.

Lyon is one of AFL's finest coaches but his arrogance is comparable to Mick Malthouse. Lyon's distain for the media does him no favours. He must forget that when he speaks to the media he is also speaking to the fans as well.

I don't think Lyon is a mercenary, he's just a guy that's driven to win & there is no place for loyalty in his world.

His biggest failure at St Kilda, in my opinion, was not playing enough young players, not so much this year because he had no choice but in 2009 & 2010 he was playing injured players when he should have been laying the foundations for the clubs future & longevity by introducing some younger players to AFL.

Freo's gain & our loss but I'm not sad he's gone ... Looking forward to a fresh start next year.

Everyone keeps talking about what a great list Freo has and given that as a reason that Lyon left to join them but they still have their problems.

As talented as some of their young kids are like Fyfe, Hill, Barlow and Morabito their top end talent isn't as strong as ours. They only really have Pavlich, Sandilands and Mundy as elite senior players and they probably only have a few years left in their careers at most.

Also Lyon's game plan is based on a strong defence and Freo's two best key defenders in McPharlin and Grover are coming to the end of their careers. Compare that to our defence with the likes of Fisher, Gwilt, Gilbert, Blake, Dawson, Dempster etc.

No doubt Lyon's a good coach that can extract the best out of a playing group but I'm not convinced the Freo list is going to be able to produce anything better than our list can produce.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

Looks like our Chairman agrees with you. I'm just listening to the press conference now, and he made it clear that "we don't want to keep anyone here that doesn't want to be here". Also added "Ross was, we are". Was very impressive in his understated way.

True but considering our president and CEO are representing the members a harsh word or two in his direction at the press conference would have been something.

Not worth it. Nothing to be gained. Internally I'm sure they're seething, but they are handling this quite well I think.

Shame I just executed Lyon for blatant dishonesty to his players.

Riewoldt reckons the players had expected Lyon to be at the club next year but he never directly told them that he would be.

What is worse, he has the cheek to imply that the club should have moved faster to lock Lyon into a secure contract.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl.../story-e6frf3e3-1226140207267?from=public_rss

The man clearly loves Lyon and is dumb enough to believe he acted with integrity.

Bad move. Off with his head. In the name of the people.

When WILL these people understand that St Kilda's handling of the small matter of the signing up of our Senior Coach was admirable for its display of seriousness and devotion to duty?

If only Lyon had the brains to accommodate himself to their lofty standards, he might still be alive today.

Notice, the word negotiations are used and not "simply giving Ross what he wants".

I guess the normal process from now on will be for all contracts to de negotiated when they still have 18 months to run. Not sure how that will pan out for 1 year deals though.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Lyon is one of AFL's finest coaches but his arrogance is comparable to Mick Malthouse. Lyon's distain for the media does him no favours. He must forget that when he speaks to the media he is also speaking to the fans as well.

Love your posts, Simon (and wish you posted more!), but I kinda disagree with this to an extent... nah, really, I just want to nuance it a bit. I don't think it's ARROGANCE that took him there, it's INSECURITY.

He came to the Saints when we had a pretty flipping incredible list: Ball, Montagna, Dal Santo, Harvey, Gehrig, Riewoldt, Kosi, Hudgeton, Milne, Baker, Gardiner, just off the top of my head. Then he managed to get Schneider for a steal. With a list THAT good, we were always going to be in the running. You can be a really crap coach who looks really good when you've got a list like that (Denis Pagan, anyone?).

But now, he was looking down the barrel of having to play kids based on HIS recruiting, and particularly on his future recruiting. And he had learned that, aside from where he had extensive history with the players already (Schneids, Demps), he had shown himself to be a pretty ordinary facet of the recruiting process. He'd had a part in stuffing up Ball, Lovett, Lynch, and quite a few others.

So if you are insecure about your ability to recruit for the future, you go somewhere where somebody has done the hard work for you - Mark Harvey, for all his faults, had got a nice bunch of kids together, and got games into them. Incidentally, this is why Freo fans are so ticked - there's an old saying in the Bible: "Those who sow in tears, reap with joy." In other words, it's hard setting things up, but that's okay if you get to enjoy the rewards. Freo have given Harvey only the rough end of that equation. And Ross Lyon has shown himself too insecure in his own abilities to do the rough end of that equation. Ah well, at least he knows his limitations.

 

[phantom13]

Love your posts, Simon (and wish you posted more!), but I kinda disagree with this to an extent... nah, really, I just want to nuance it a bit. I don't think it's ARROGANCE that took him there, it's INSECURITY.

He came to the Saints when we had a pretty flipping incredible list: Ball, Montagna, Dal Santo, Harvey, Gehrig, Riewoldt, Kosi, Hudgeton, Milne, Baker, Gardiner, just off the top of my head. Then he managed to get Schneider for a steal. With a list THAT good, we were always going to be in the running. You can be a really crap coach who looks really good when you've got a list like that (Denis Pagan, anyone?).

But now, he was looking down the barrel of having to play kids based on HIS recruiting, and particularly on his future recruiting. And he had learned that, aside from where he had extensive history with the players already (Schneids, Demps), he had shown himself to be a pretty ordinary facet of the recruiting process. He'd had a part in stuffing up Ball, Lovett, Lynch, and quite a few others.

So if you are insecure about your ability to recruit for the future, you go somewhere where somebody has done the hard work for you - Mark Harvey, for all his faults, had got a nice bunch of kids together, and got games into them. Incidentally, this is why Freo fans are so ticked - there's an old saying in the Bible: "Those who sow in tears, reap with joy." In other words, it's hard setting things up, but that's okay if you get to enjoy the rewards. Freo have given Harvey only the rough end of that equation. And Ross Lyon has shown himself too insecure in his own abilities to do the rough end of that equation. Ah well, at least he knows his limitations.

This is a quality post, and i have actually been saying for quite some time before he jumped ship that he would be a good fit for melbourne, given how he got our list, which had alot of talent but had not achieved, up and going. But i also agree with simon the way Ross speaks to the media with such disdain and what he said about the saints in leaving shows he thinks he is bigger and better than other coaches and even clubs. His complete lack of empathy for Mark Harvey further illustrated this.

 

[karmafree]

Love your posts, Simon (and wish you posted more!), but I kinda disagree with this to an extent... nah, really, I just want to nuance it a bit. I don't think it's ARROGANCE that took him there, it's INSECURITY.

He came to the Saints when we had a pretty flipping incredible list: Ball, Montagna, Dal Santo, Harvey, Gehrig, Riewoldt, Kosi, Hudgeton, Milne, Baker, Gardiner, just off the top of my head. Then he managed to get Schneider for a steal. With a list THAT good, we were always going to be in the running. You can be a really crap coach who looks really good when you've got a list like that (Denis Pagan, anyone?).

But now, he was looking down the barrel of having to play kids based on HIS recruiting, and particularly on his future recruiting. And he had learned that, aside from where he had extensive history with the players already (Schneids, Demps), he had shown himself to be a pretty ordinary facet of the recruiting process. He'd had a part in stuffing up Ball, Lovett, Lynch, and quite a few others.

So if you are insecure about your ability to recruit for the future, you go somewhere where somebody has done the hard work for you - Mark Harvey, for all his faults, had got a nice bunch of kids together, and got games into them. Incidentally, this is why Freo fans are so ticked - there's an old saying in the Bible: "Those who sow in tears, reap with joy." In other words, it's hard setting things up, but that's okay if you get to enjoy the rewards. Freo have given Harvey only the rough end of that equation. And Ross Lyon has shown himself too insecure in his own abilities to do the rough end of that equation. Ah well, at least he knows his limitations.

Great post Perc.
Nailed it perfectly his recruiting record is shite and to live and fall by his own recruiting was to much for him to contemplate as it would expose him. If you don't have the cattle, doesn't matter how great your game plan is, or your man management or your inter game tactics you will still loose.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I'm over the hate.

Given that he wanted to leave, probably for the money, there was never going to be a good way to do it. Before the end of the season - he would have derailed the season ( not that it mattered and the press leakes mighntn't have helped - where do these leaks come from anyway?).

I liked him as a coach, but I'm also excited at what a new coach can do, because while Ross was good, I'm not convinced he could walk on water.

So long and thanks for all the fish.

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

I don't think it's ARROGANCE that took him there, it's INSECURITY.

Absolutely. Which coach wouldn't be insecure if their employer wanted to sack them at any time without paying off their contract even if that meant that anyone could just walk in and poach them at any time without so much as a by your leave.

Don't blame the club though. Can't be too cautious.

 

[phantom13]

Absolutely. Which coach wouldn't be insecure if their employer wanted to sack them at any time without paying off their contract even if that meant that anyone could just walk in and poach them at any time without so much as a by your leave.

Don't blame the club though. Can't be too cautious.

Not having a crack at you mate, but what did you want the club to do?

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Not having a crack at you mate, but what did you want the club to do?

How can a club in possession of a coach who has just taken them to a grand final and coached a near-perfect season in 2009 reward and honour that coach with a contract that threatens to sack him at any time without paying off his contract?

Everyone is moaning in agony and outrage for Mark Harvey (a crap coach if ever I've seen one) but at least he's getting paid $600,000 for doing nothing and getting his family relocated to Melbourne for free.

None of that security for Rossy. Oh no. Not good enough. Obviously.

The club in its wisdom decided that the right to sack Ross at any time was so vital for the welfare of our club that in exchange it placed Ross on the market by allowing him to walk at any time without being in breach of his contract.

No doubt this was due to his questionable character and commitment. You can't be too cautious with a coach with the best win-loss ratio in the competition who most other clubs would kill to get.

Ross has been coaching with one foot out the door because that is the position we placed him in. There was no term in his contract that bound him to our club.

That is how much he valued him. That is the respect we showed him.

And then we have the cheek to point the finger at Ross shrieking words like "loyalty" and "decency" and "integrity" - values of which our club knows nothing. The greatest living coach in our history who loved and brought out the best in his players has walked because we pushed him. We treated him like dirt.

On Thursday, when Freo dropped their contract on his table, he saw for the first time what it felt like to be treated with the professional respect he deserved. And of course it became intolerable for him to continue.

In all my 45 years of barracking for this club this is the most monumental botch-up I have witnessed and if I didn't love the colours so much or Lenny and Milney and Kosi I'd walk myself.

Oh yes, and can I say, if we as members of the St Kilda Big Footy Board had any sense of dignity or self-worth we'd be clamouring for the removal of this disgusting thread and pronto.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

There was no term in his contract that bound him to our club.

Except the part where he was still contracted for 2012.

 

[Papa Juggs]

Hate?

I hated him when he was our coach.

Now he's gone I feel better than ever about the team

He was strangling the life out of our list and our gameplan and the longer kids careers went on the worse they got either through limited oppotunity or training the brilliance out of them turning them into "defenders".

He was shit and I'm glad he's gone.

Decent results in finals but only over a period of a couple years = fail.

We didn't even stay at the top as long as Port did and not winning the flag is just a cruel blow.