Round 13: St Kilda vs Geelong, Saturday Night @ the MCG

[Rough_Edges]

Good to see Joey back.

I'd guess that he is still a chance to miss but hopefully he proves his fitness at training tomorrow.

 

[saber_32au]

Okay I will look at both games last year. Oh look at that, we WON both. Oh and later in the year? Okay... oh look at that, we lost in the last 20 seconds. Not a bad result of a team with one forward.

This has got nothing to do with my post, not sure of the relevance???

I never made the comment about winning games last year against Geelong, rather if we let Roo play in our F50, he will continually be triple/quadruple teamed, like last time.

My question was: Does our forward line have the ability to kick a winning score? In my opinion, based apon the selected team, no it doesn't, hence the need for more tall forwards.

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

Not including the game against Collingwood we've scored over 100 twice and 80 odd 3 of last 4 games.

Of course, the game against Collingwood is probably more indicative of this week than any of those 3 games.

But we can kick goals and yes if we win it'll probably be a ground out win. But shit I'd take it. Would give us a kick heading into the bye.

I reckon Schneider's a good pick to bob up and kick a few. Jack's also well known for his goal kicking against the Cats

Jeez, how far has that kid come in the last year? Exactly this time last year he looked like a tiny kid who played forward pocket and somehow popped up to kick 3 goals. Fast forward a year and he's playing a vital role in our midfield.

 

[ChrisFooty]

They dropped Ledger. Not happy.

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

They dropped Ledger. Not happy.

Stress not. I don't think it'll be too long before he's a regular on the wings

Winmar and Ledger screaming down the field.

Not a bad name combo to have!

 

[Fehring]

Ledger would still be a good chance to play this week after all the reports of Joey limping about.

 

[sauce_head]

I reckon Kosi will come in for Blake as a late change.

 

[Persevering Saint]

If Kosi comes in, oh my goodness. That clearly indicates that selecting players on merit is not part of Ross's ethos. Johnson and Walsh deserve a place in the team long, long, long before Kosi. That Kosi is in the emergencies, ahead of Walsh (when Walsh should be in the team) is an insult to Tommy, and pretty much confirms for me that he is not going to be playing for us next year - especially when coupled with Ross's ridiculous statements about buying a key-forward next year.

You tell me - on the basis of that team, who is going to kick the 16ish goals we need to get 100 points? I'm going to be really generous here, and this is what I see:

Gamble: 2 goals
Milne: 3 goals
Schneider: 2 goals
Steven: 2 goals
Riewoldt:2 goals
McEvoy:1 goal
Montagna: 1 goal
Goddard: 2 goals
Another mid: 1 goal
Gilber: 0 goals

Now, that's me being astonishingly generous - as IF all those players will pull that off. That means we're going to be relying instead on defending Geelong out of the game.

Now, take out Gilbert and put in Johnson. Take out somebody else, probably Blake (given his injury) and put in Walsh. Have an actual forward line with some more forwards in it. Then we have some potency.

Sorry, but just really disappointed.

 

[The Enemy Within]

Have you heard of the term "Stop flogging a dead horse" Walsh,Johnson and Lynch give it a break every time you have a whinge it's bring in Walsh.

 

[stkildathunda]

I had a bit of a crack at writing a preview for the match. Its not the greatest of all time and i pretty much did it in 5mins

Round 13 vs Geelong Match Preview
by stkildathunda

http://truesainters.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/round-13-vs-geelong-match-preview/

VENUE & TIME: MCG, Saturday June 18, 7:10pm AEST
HEAD TO HEAD: Played 206: St Kilda 83, Geelong 123
LAST TIME: Geelong 6.12 (48) def St Kilda 6.11 (47), MCG, Round 1, 2010

One thing we have learnt over the past few years is that when StKilda & Geelong meet it will be a tight hard fought battle. This shows in the last 5 times these teams have met as the average margin is 9.4 points, with the Saints leading the H2H battle 3-2. But as all Saints fans are aware they would give all those wins for the one that matters most, the 2009 Premiership.

For the second time this season Geelong and St Kilda will clash under lights at the MCG and you can bank on another thrilling contest to transpire. While the Round 1 clash wasn't the greatest of matches, it wasn't short of drama with Darren Milburn putting the Cats in front in the final minute after they had managed just one goal for the best part of three quarters. Since that game, Geelong have gone onto win 11 successive matches, while the Saints' season went into freefall as they registered just one win from their first seven, but have managed to find some form of late and sit in 9th spot and only 1 game out of the eight.

Geelong go into the game with one of their best midfielders missing due to copping a 4 week suspension for a behind the play hit on Hawk Brent Guerra. On the flip side StKilda regain Leigh Montagna who replaces young gun Tom Ledger which might just give them the edge in the midfield. Jason Blake comes in to replace another kid Tom Simpkin. Blake will be able to help out Ben McEvoy against the dominate Brad Ottens. Interesting that even after all the kids the Saints have blooded since the start of the year, there is only 1 change to the Saints lineup from the team that took on the Cats in Round 1. There are also no 1st or 2nd year players playing and only 1 third year player. Is this a good thing that Ross is reverting back to the experienced players? Only time will tell, as much as people think the young kids wont be able to handle the Cats bigger bodies, half the Cats team are kids. Some will say its the perfect chance to test the kids against one the bench mark teams this year. But as we say, in Ross we trust.

Saints
IN: Montagna, Blake
OUT: Simpkin, Ledger

Geelong
In: Wojinski
Out: Joel Selwood

On form the Cats should win this game quite comfortably but im sure they wont be taking the Saints so lightly and will have this game pencilled in as a danger game. The Saints will look to shut the game right down, just like they did in Round 1 so it might not be the best spectacle in the world.

Saints by 5 points

 

[Squizz]

Have you heard of the term "Stop flogging a dead horse" Walsh,Johnson and Lynch give it a break every time you have a whinge it's bring in Walsh.

You've been doing a fair bit of flogging too.

No-one else seems to have a problem with guys saying "bring in player X".

So why get your knickers in a twist?

 

[Squizz]

Could Dawson play FF this week?

Ross said in his presser that Zac had floated forward a couple of times last week but that he didn't think he'd be going with that again.

He's normally true to his word.

Suggested Sammy Fish could be used. If Gilbert goes into defence along with Raph, and Monty's knee is OK and he bolsters the midfield, it could be a viable option to keep the defenders honest.

 

[Squizz]

I guess Gilbert has the runs on the board from his consistently good performances the past few years so people excuse the odd bad game from him now.

Whilst I was annoyed that Ross seems to think he is important enough to play when he's got a virus (along with patchy 2011 form), his game against Freo was very good and he was OK against the filth. Should have been left out against the Dogs, but I guess it's a new week.

 

[saber_32au]

If Kosi comes in, oh my goodness. That clearly indicates that selecting players on merit is not part of Ross's ethos. Johnson and Walsh deserve a place in the team long, long, long before Kosi. That Kosi is in the emergencies, ahead of Walsh (when Walsh should be in the team) is an insult to Tommy, and pretty much confirms for me that he is not going to be playing for us next year - especially when coupled with Ross's ridiculous statements about buying a key-forward next year.

+1 to everything said above. Would be a massive shame to loose Walsh. Big body, strong, athletic, quick and young. Everything (bar big and strong) Kosi isn't. Why can't we just give up on Kosi! He isn't going to take our club any further. Throw Walsh in the forward line! If he doesn't work, who cares, cut him at the end of the season. He'll return to Ireland if you do so. But with him in the forward line, he gives us a strong, powerful marking forward, who can apply defensive pressure when the ball is on the ground (he ain't useless like Kosi is when the ball hits the deck) .

You tell me - on the basis of that team, who is going to kick the 16ish goals we need to get 100 points? I'm going to be really generous here, and this is what I see:

Gamble: 2 goals
Milne: 3 goals
Schneider: 2 goals
Steven: 2 goals
Riewoldt:2 goals
McEvoy:1 goal
Montagna: 1 goal
Goddard: 2 goals
Another mid: 1 goal
Gilber: 0 goals

Now, that's me being astonishingly generous - as IF all those players will pull that off. That means we're going to be relying instead on defending Geelong out of the game.

Now, take out Gilbert and put in Johnson. Take out somebody else, probably Blake (given his injury) and put in Walsh. Have an actual forward line with some more forwards in it. Then we have some potency.

Sorry, but just really disappointed.

Mate, we'll be lucky to kick 60 points with the forward line we've got currently selected. I agree 100% with your call to bring in 2 key forwards. Would love to see a combo of Walsh/Johnson/Archer in the team, if form permits. It appears that Archer isn't quite there yet, but Walsh and Johnson should be in.

I'm hoping for a saints win, but if we do win, it will be a low scoring, ugly sight.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If anyone else gave that performance out there, you wouldn't have anything to say. This sort of nonsense is the reason Raph is so figety on field.

He got 15 disposals, 7 contested . His game would not have been remarkable if Jarryn Geary or Jamie Cripps had played it.
I hope you dont think thats good enough long term, it was merely adequate, and if Raph cant do more than that someone else will.
Certainly nothing in that game makes me think he is any better than much maligned Polo.

Having said that, he probably did more in that game than Dal Santo.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Ross said in his presser that Zac had floated forward a couple of times last week but that he didn't think he'd be going with that again.

He's normally true to his word.

Suggested Sammy Fish could be used. If Gilbert goes into defence along with Raph, and Monty's knee is OK and he bolsters the midfield, it could be a viable option to keep the defenders honest.

Fish spent a few weeks trying to play as a forward last year, and I sort of thought he could get there if he persevered.
The issue last year was our backline was sucking without him.

I think part of what we are seeing this year is an attempt for our backline to function without him as a key defender.

Not sure if he can just slot into the forward line and function all of a sudden in one week.

 

[The Punter]

I actually think Walsh should be brought in to free up Zac to play on a slightly less effective forward. Zac did a good job playing as the second ruck last week, but Blake is in to fill that role.

It's interesting that while nearly everyone has gone with a player who spends his time floating between the forward line and the ruck (Roughead, Natanui, Ryder, Brown, Vardy), we've gone the opposite way and have done it with a defender (Blake, Dawson, Fisher, Gwilt). I think it's the coaching staff acknowledging where our talent lies, especially with Koschitzke and Stanley not up to it at the moment.

On a separate note, if I had to rank the "youngsters" so far this season (first or second season playing senior football), it would go something like this:

Siposs
Cripps
Ledger
Smith
Stanley
Winmar
Lynch
Heyne
Johnson
Simpkin
Archer

If six of those guys work out (100 game players), we're actually batting at a pretty high strike rate. I don't hold great hope for Archer, Simpkin was thrown to the wolves against Collingwood and didn't show a lot against the Doggies, and Johnson looked a little lost, but that may have been the concussion. Heyne and Stanley haven't kicked on, and Lynch needs some continuity in senior football, but should come good. I'm pretty bullish about Siposs, Cripps, Ledger, Smith & Winmar. Cahill looks finished, and Walsh gets an incomplete grade considering my wish for him to come in and play on the big forwards - he should have played against Collingwood instead of Simpkin.

 

[StFly]

Cahill is the major disappointment for mine, he's the tpe of player that we were screaming out for to shore up the forward movements to either compliment Mini's effort ('09) or play the role that we rotate the mid through, high lead up double back forward. Instead, he doesn't even seem to look like getting out of the ressies whilst Stanley has several games under his belt and to a lesser extent Lynch found a groove before getting injured and Heyne just seems to lack presence. Disappointing in just the lack of application from Cahill atm.

Chips is a more than capable forward target though, good set shot, good run, good depth on the kicks (when he's not second guessing himself) and of course he reads the ball flight so well as it is, the problem just becomes who is then the general down back? Off the ball he does a lot of directing to ensure that the backline is set, that match ups are good and that space is closed or limited to the pockets / flanks so by moving him you risk tearing out the brains of the operation with him. This could work in specific instances, but as a permanent solution I'm not convinced, still, as a 1v1 with someone like Scarlett, I think it could work, would work a hell of a lot better than Kosi on him did.

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

Cahill is the major disappointment for mine, he's the tpe of player that we were screaming out for to shore up the forward movements to either compliment Mini's effort ('09) or play the role that we rotate the mid through, high lead up double back forward. Instead, he doesn't even seem to look like getting out of the ressies whilst Stanley has several games under his belt and to a lesser extent Lynch found a groove before getting injured and Heyne just seems to lack presence. Disappointing in just the lack of application from Cahill atm.

Chips is a more than capable forward target though, good set shot, good run, good depth on the kicks (when he's not second guessing himself) and of course he reads the ball flight so well as it is, the problem just becomes who is then the general down back? Off the ball he does a lot of directing to ensure that the backline is set, that match ups are good and that space is closed or limited to the pockets / flanks so by moving him you risk tearing out the brains of the operation with him. This could work in specific instances, but as a permanent solution I'm not convinced, still, as a 1v1 with someone like Scarlett, I think it could work, would work a hell of a lot better than Kosi on him did.

Let's not forget Cahill was a high 70's pick. It's pretty rare that you're gonna get a long term decent player that far back in the draft.

And yes I know Siposs has shown more in his few months at the club than Cahill has shown in a few years. But yeah, I don't think anyone came into 2011 expecting Sippa to be the most played youngster from the 2010 draft.

He's had to play 2nd fiddle to Lynch and a superstar full forward in the last couple years. And now when he gets his chance he gets a major injury. Just as Walsh, Johnson, Archer and Lourey step up...Not to mention Stanley.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Cahill is the major disappointment for mine, he's the tpe of player that we were screaming out for to shore up the forward movements to either compliment Mini's effort ('09) or play the role that we rotate the mid through, high lead up double back forward. Instead, he doesn't even seem to look like getting out of the ressies whilst Stanley has several games under his belt and to a lesser extent Lynch found a groove before getting injured and Heyne just seems to lack presence. Disappointing in just the lack of application from Cahill atm.

Chips is a more than capable forward target though, good set shot, good run, good depth on the kicks (when he's not second guessing himself) and of course he reads the ball flight so well as it is, the problem just becomes who is then the general down back? Off the ball he does a lot of directing to ensure that the backline is set, that match ups are good and that space is closed or limited to the pockets / flanks so by moving him you risk tearing out the brains of the operation with him. This could work in specific instances, but as a permanent solution I'm not convinced, still, as a 1v1 with someone like Scarlett, I think it could work, would work a hell of a lot better than Kosi on him did.

The way I see it we dont have the strength that we need to stand and take marks and outmuscle defenders the way Chris Dawes or Cam Cloke does.
Dawes 193cm 105Kg
Cloke 196cm 100Kg
Tippett 203cm 107Kg
Mooney 195cm 99Kg
Hall 194cm 103Kg
Brown 195cm 104Kg
Fev 191 cm 100Kg

We have Siposs 189cm 82Kg
Cahill 192cm 87Kg
Lynch 192cm 87Kg
Gilbert 194cm 90Kg
Johnson 191cm 91Kg
Kosi 197cm 93Kg
Stanley 200cm 95Kg
Riewoldt 193cm 96Kg
Walsh 195cm 97Kg
Archer 193cm 99Kg
McEvoy 200cm 98Kg ( by comparison )
Gardiner 199cm 105Kg.

The old Fraser Gehrig /Nick Riewoldt combo worked well but we replaced 112Kg Fraser with 93Kg Kosi.
Cahill cant do the Gehrig role with 87Kg and we still have Riewoldt on the team.
Gilbert, Johnson, and Lynch probably play more a medium forward role than a full forward.
Kosi tries hard but he weighs only a tad more than Simpkin, and is less agile than Barry Hall.
Stanley , dont think he's FF material - another Nick Wannabee.
Leaves us with Archer, Walsh and McEvoy once Gardiner is back.

http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/gvYk...stown+v+Sandringham/ES13gXEcGu1/Daniel+Archer

 

[thomas_m18]

I'm hoping Archer one day possesses that strength to become that pack breaker that Dawes and Cloke (Travis, not Cam) do. We've got a lot of young KPF's, if one or two come on we should be set for a very long time.

 

[Plugger35]

Likewise Stanley, once he builds up some more strength he will be a lot more effective. He already has the pace and skill, just needs a couple more pre-seasons in the gym. He will never be a Dawes or Cloke type though, more a Riewoldt type.

Archer at FF and Stanley at CHF wouldn't be a bad future key forward duo.

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

Good analysis SS. We're really lacking a monster forward.

Thought Kosi was bigger than that though? He's a massive unit. Archer much be ridiculously big haha.

We've got the stocks it seems...

But:

Siposs Pick 75
Cahill Pick 78
Johnson Pick 72
Stanley Pick 47
Archer Rookie Upgrade
Walsh Dude from Ireland

Shouldn't be getting our hopes up. Most clubs are doing well to get decent careers with 1/5 picks from 70+

Since 2006 we've invested our first pick in 2 mids (Armo and Cripps), a ruck (Macca) a back flanker/full forward? (Lynch) and a winger (Winmar). While I have faith that every one of them will forge, at the very least, solid career for the Saints. We really haven't invested any early picks in a KPP for a while. Minus McEvoy, who's not really a forward target anyway and Lynch who seems to have been transformed into a Sam Fisher replacement.

Hope the club has faith that one of their late picks can come through. I certainly have the hope, anyway

 

[StFly]

Let's not forget Cahill was a high 70's pick. It's pretty rare that you're gonna get a long term decent player that far back in the draft.

And yes I know Siposs has shown more in his few months at the club than Cahill has shown in a few years. But yeah, I don't think anyone came into 2011 expecting Sippa to be the most played youngster from the 2010 draft.

He's had to play 2nd fiddle to Lynch and a superstar full forward in the last couple years. And now when he gets his chance he gets a major injury. Just as Walsh, Johnson, Archer and Lourey step up...Not to mention Stanley.

Regardless of where he was picked I saw him more as that hit up forward than the monster forward, thus allowing Rooey to play closer to as opposed to hitting up the wings and trying to double back to a defensive press ala Bob Murphy (186 & 82). For me we are simply missing a full forward, a high half forward and a bonafide defensive forward, Cahill would have effectively fit the high half forward role if he came through. Siposs effectively does the role that Gamble would be doing since he's not a KP "type" to fill a post, this is largely why we play types like Blake, Chips & Dawson in the posts when they go down or why we looked a hell of a lot better when Stanley was taking Rooeys spot, structurally we work better with 2 KP forward targets and flow wise we work better when a third forward is hit up around the 70-80m instead Rooey hitting up on the wing and busting back to around 45 after a dish off to that area if it comes off.

Personally I'd be happy with Archer or Walsh in the role, as they're far stronger in the hips and more immobile in contests than Stanley would be, and Johnson is more "straight line" ala Kosi from efforts seen at leading. Ultimately we have to make due with what picks we had, if we weren't going to utalise the player we picked up then we may as well have just traded the picks off or passed, so either way it's always disappointing where a guy just doesn't come on when he'd fill a role.

 

[saber_32au]

Personally I'd be happy with Archer or Walsh in the role, as they're far stronger in the hips and more immobile in contests than Stanley would be, and Johnson is more "straight line" ala Kosi from efforts seen at leading. Ultimately we have to make due with what picks we had, if we weren't going to utalise the player we picked up then we may as well have just traded the picks off or passed, so either way it's always disappointing where a guy just doesn't come on when he'd fill a role.

+1 to the above.

Personally, I think this is the perfect opportunity to play both Walsh and Johnson (against a top 4 backline, to really blood the youngsters and gain valuable experience) yet they are both left out of the team? The addition of 2 big, strong, mobile young forwards would create more of a headache for the Geelong defense then having a Gilbert (who isn't a forward, and can't hold his own against Geelongs centre half back) and Gamble (too small to play at full forward, will get thrown around in a 1 or 1 situation).