Autopsy Round 14, 2023: Richmond v St.Kilda

[George]

Well it is for Ross, and 2/3 coaches who haven’t been at the club for those years.
What did you expect him to do walking into the club after trade / draft weeks? They’ve had no say in the list build.

As I said previously, it’s what they do from here on in that counts. They’ve probably extracted as much as they can from what we’ve got so far. Were you expecting 5 on the ladder at this stage of the season? I doubt any one of us was.

Think it's a cheap cop-out. Couldn't give a rats arse if it's his list or not, we've known the issues for years. Year of exploration is a nice excuse for poor form. We should expect better especially from our senior players.

 

[George]

I don't think that's true. Howard has gone backwards and so has Gresham, both were pretty good last year. So was Seb Ross.

Howard was shit last year too. He's a very poor footballer. Gresham the same, selfish and hopeless with the footy. We've known about these things for years.

 

[Yawkey way]

We needed to plan to replace them, no keep them. No midfield depth has cost us finals last year as well. Dunstan would have been able to replace a mid last year when we lost Steele and Gresham we lost games and the season went. No other side has such a small amount of midfield back up. We have Bytel as or only midfield depth option in reserve. To have not seen that coming is damning. Gags was a * up.

Every time I go back and look at what we‘ve done over the years at the draft it just makes me angry. We’ve been much better lately and I know we can’t go back and change it but our problems are self inflicted. It’s just garbage to say we haven’t had midfield talent available at our picks, we just haven’t called the right names. Our recruiters should have been writing fan fiction, we’re obsessed with projecting what a kid might be over what he actually is.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Think it's a cheap cop-out. Couldn't give a rats arse if it's his list or not, we've known the issues for years. Year of exploration is a nice excuse for poor form. We should expect better especially from our senior players.

Sorry you’re talking rubbish.
Ross has said it’s a year of exploration for him - and it obviously is. It’s not his list. We’re performing above expectations here. Did you expect to win the flag or make top 4 this year? I mean seriously?
Of course we can/should expect the best our players can deliver - but they’re not Brownlow medallists or premiership players, so their best is not necessarily going to match it with other teams. We don’t have a Dusty, Cotchin, Prestia, Boltin just fyi.
Most games this year we cannot doubt their endeavour, but the class isn’t there.

 

[D2D3]

I don't think that's true. Howard has gone backwards and so has Gresham, both were pretty good last year. So was Seb Ross.

Think it’s pretty safe to say Gresham is gone. Wouldn’t be surprised to see Howard and Membery not far behind him though it’s obviously a little premature to say that now. I think Seb Ross stays but he’s been on a decline for a while now.

 

[RBW_007]

Kudos to McQualter he has turned Richmond around in 3 weeks and actually got the better of RTB in the box.

Played a majority of his career under Ross.

So not only has he probably learnt quite a bit from him, he also knows how Ross coaches and would've planned for it. Not saying it's why they won, but having that knowledge would've been quite helpful.

 

[D2D3]

Think it's a cheap cop-out. Couldn't give a rats arse if it's his list or not, we've known the issues for years. Year of exploration is a nice excuse for poor form. We should expect better especially from our senior players.

Honestly I think our current senior players (with a few obvious exceptions) just aren’t up to it and never will be.

 

[Mowman]

Sorry you’re talking rubbish.
Ross has said it’s a year of exploration for him - and it obviously is. It’s not his list. We’re performing above expectations here. Did you expect to win the flag or make top 4 this year? I mean seriously?
Of course we can/should expect the best our players can deliver - but they’re not Brownlow medallists or premiership players, so their best is not necessarily going to match it with other teams. We don’t have a Dusty, Cotchin, Boltin just fyi.
Most games this year we cannot doubt their endeavour, but the class isn’t there.

We missed the finals by one game last year
We now have a much better coach apparently we have a great coaching group under him anything but finals is failure this year
Year of exploration is nothing but a cop out IMO we were 6 & 2 you don’t miss finals from there

 

[Darrian Barnett]

Not sure I buy this “Richmond are a better team than ladder position suggests so we shouldn’t be too bothered by the result” talk on here.

Since 2012, that’s exactly the sort of attitude our club has had.

You simply need to find a way to win games against teams below you on the ladder if you are a team to be taken seriously.

Richmond are where they are on the ladder because they have been horribly inconsistent this year. Hawthorn because they are a young team rebuilding.

To quote Logan Roy in Succession, when talking to his incompetent and entitled (for different reasons) children with regards to whether they should/could take over the family company “you’re not serious people”.

Until St Kilda as a football club doesn’t make excuses when losing games we simply have to win to play finals, we aren’t a serious football club.

And we haven’t been since 2013.

To also quote Logan Roy, St Kilda's midfield performance was "about as choreographed as a dog being ****ed on rollerskates"

 

[George]

Sorry you’re talking rubbish.
Ross has said it’s a year of exploration for him - and it obviously is. It’s not his list. We’re performing above expectations here. Did you expect to win the flag or make top 4 this year? I mean seriously?
Of course we can/should expect the best our players can deliver - but they’re not Brownlow medallists or premiership players, so their best is not necessarily going to match it with other teams. We don’t have a Dusty, Cotchin, Boltin just fyi.
Most games this year we cannot doubt their endeavour, but the class isn’t there.

Performing above expectations to whom? I expected us to play finals this year. The list is good enough for that. Too many times the players get a pass. Last night was all on them. Time for us to expect more.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Think it’s pretty safe to say Gresham is gone. Wouldn’t be surprised to see Howard and Membery not far behind him though it’s obviously a little premature to say that now. I think Seb Ross stays but he’s been on a decline for a while now.

Not sure anyone’s going to want Ross at this stage of his career anyway. And doubt Gresham is exactly selling himself to possible suitors right now either. At this stage we will t get much for him. He’s teased us, but I think I’m ready to let him go.

 

[Yawkey way]

This year hasn't shown anything, we've known our midfield is hopeless for years. Year of exploration my arse.

I always took that to mean Lyon would have a look at the players we have at the club now and make up his own mind about who he wants going forward.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Performing above expectations to whom? I expected us to play finals this year. The list is good enough for that. Too many times the players get a pass. Last night was all on them. Time for us to expect more.

You’re contradicting yourself. First you say the midfield is sh*t. And now you say they’re good enough.

Performing above expectations of what they are capable. A very good and successful coach has told us they are playing to their ceiling. Besides that we can believe the eye test. We all know the shortcomings of our list particularly the midfield, we e said it for years, but you cannot expect Lyon to fix it the year he comes in. The most he can do is get them to perform to their optimum - which judging by ladder position right now he appears to have done.

Even when he came in first time round, with a much more talented list, we didn’t get to finals immediately.

 

[gringo2011]

Think it’s pretty safe to say Gresham is gone. Wouldn’t be surprised to see Howard and Membery not far behind him though it’s obviously a little premature to say that now. I think Seb Ross stays but he’s been on a decline for a while now.

I think Ross is probably playing a role to bring kids through or something. He looked pretty good yesterday in the wet. Yeah, Gresham looks out of the club. Doesn’t seem invested at all. Howard looks like he’s lost all confidence now. Can’t see how he gets a game if we chase a full back.

 

[Yawkey way]

Performing above expectations to whom? I expected us to play finals this year. The list is good enough for that. Too many times the players get a pass. Last night was all on them. Time for us to expect more.

Top eight with everything going our way, who would have thought with the injury run we’ve had that finals are more likely than not.

 

[gringo2011]

You’re contradicting yourself. First you say the midfield is sh*t. And now you say they’re good enough.

Performing above expectations of what they are capable. A very good and successful coach has told us they are playing to their ceiling. Besides that we can believe the eye test. We all know the shortcomings of our list particularly the midfield, we e said it for years, but you cannot expect Lyon to fix it the year he comes in. The most he can do is get them to perform to their optimum - which judging by ladder position right now he appears to have done.

Even when he came in first time round, with a much more talented list, we didn’t get to finals immediately.

Our midfield is good enough when everyone is fit and firing but that rarely happens in any side. A good list manager is essential now. Ours is very suspect.

 

[Diehard Saint]

We missed the finals by one game last year
We now have a much better coach apparently we have a great coaching group under him anything but finals is failure this year
Year of exploration is nothing but a cop out IMO we were 6 & 2 you don’t miss finals from there

So we almost made finals last year, but didn’t.
Who said we miss this year? I doubt they’re capping their expectations.
Didnt we always say the coach is as good as the list? And haven’t we all been complaining that our midfield is bog ordinary?
Well it’s not easy ( in fact impossible) to actually change the list when you walk into the job after trade/ draft week.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Our midfield is good enough when everyone is fit and firing but that rarely happens in any side. A good list manager is essential now. Ours is very suspect.

Come on, let’s be honest, besides an injured Steele we have no out and out stars in there. We’ve all been harping on about it for years.

Agree totally about the list manager and for reasons I’m unsure of ( it’s the vibe) SOS just doesn’t fill me with confidence.

Anyway, much as I’ve enjoyed arguing with all of you, I’m heading out for the day. So just in case you think I‘m slinking away head bowed and beaten, never fear…I’ll be back!

 

[Saintbloke]

Hard to win when we have a group of players who all had poor games- Steele, Byrnes, Howard, Owens, Gresham, and a couple who could have done better in Higgins and King. That's leaving all the work to too few- looking a bit like last season now.

 

[George]

You’re contradicting yourself. First you say the midfield is sh*t. And now you say they’re good enough.

Performing above expectations of what they are capable. A very good and successful coach has told us they are playing to their ceiling. Besides that we can believe the eye test. We all know the shortcomings of our list particularly the midfield, we e said it for years, but you cannot expect Lyon to fix it the year he comes in. The most he can do is get them to perform to their optimum - which judging by ladder position right now he appears to have done.

Even when he came in first time round, with a much more talented list, we didn’t get to finals immediately.

Haha I'm not contradicting myself at all. Our midfield is shit but the team as a whole is good enough to be playing finals. They aren't performing above expectations at all. We saw this from them last year.

A coach like Ross Lyon doesn't need a year to figure anything out. McRae came in at Collingwood and nearly took them to a GF in his first year. This talk about waiting and being patient is rubbish. There was nothing to find out about this list, we've known who can and can't hack it for years.

 

[AirWinmar]

We’re still suffering from a decade of bad decision making. Thankfully it looks like we’ve finally got a set of youngsters who look a class above, but until their ready to take over as leaders we’re still going to be seeing these frustrating inconsistent performances and reliance on guys who just don’t quite cut it.

Having Steele so obviously injured really doesn’t help in the midfield department either.

Our midfield is underperforming badly and I think a big part of it is Steele playing injured. When 1 out of 3 is struggling you are making it very hard on the other 2 in the rotation. He looks very slow and flat footed atm. Not sure how they can't see it. We really need to try some others thru there. We have Gresh, Owens and Sincs who can go through a lot more and Bytel in the wings. Going by cba yesterday we had Crouch, Steele and Windy going thru the mids nearly the whole game, with Ross and Gresh rotating thru for about 40% each.

Is this year of exploration sticking with 1 setup the whole game to see how they do? Serious question

 

[ScrappyDo]

Think it’s pretty safe to say Gresham is gone. Wouldn’t be surprised to see Howard and Membery not far behind him though it’s obviously a little premature to say that now. I think Seb Ross stays but he’s been on a decline for a while now.

Doogs, Ross and Members are all contracted for next year, though you'd expect that'll be it for Ross and Timmy. Doogs will be around for a while yet me thinks. He needs help, not trading.

 

[BucketsandBanger]

Now we have found our level after the new coach bounce, there will be a big clean out at the end of the year. Need to drop Steele for his own good, a shadow of what he used to be. He’s either not healthy or has fallen to bits under Lyon. Also should drop Howard, Gresham, Ross as a start and play the kids, no point to playing them, they’ll all be gone. Also need to develop Owens, Pou and Windy in the guts, will lose games this year but who cares. Put Sharman into the forward line permanently so Owens is on ball 70%.

 

[AirWinmar]

I don't think that's true. Howard has gone backwards and so has Gresham, both were pretty good last year. So was Seb Ross.

Seb was playing awesome at the start of the year and he played well yesterday - he's just a fan favourite to rip into. Only played about 40% midfield going of cba. He had a really bad patch for a few games like nothing we've seen from since 2015.

Howard looks devoid of confidence and I sure am too whenever he is near the ball without support.

Gresh definitely struggling with the new structure, hopefully he can come good.

Sincs, Wilkie, NWM, Owens, Wood, Butler, King, Byrnes, Stocker all tracking to have career best seasons if they can keep it up.

 

[SteeleSaints]

We missed the finals by one game last year
We now have a much better coach apparently we have a great coaching group under him anything but finals is failure this year
Year of exploration is nothing but a cop out IMO we were 6 & 2 you don’t miss finals from there

Whats the point in playing finals when we are obviously not good enough to go any where?

All the AFL experts are commenting on how we allowed Vlastuin to be a spare in their defence for so long? Its because our midfield were getting absolutely thrashed and we as usual had to push an extra up around the ball, to limit the damage. Then again because Richmond were so dominant we couldnt even release Sinclair like we have been doing. The really dumb tactical move was to keep the spare when the rain hit and then the team not being smart enough to adapt to the rain quickly enough.

Lyon and Hayes need to have a serious look at themselves about their management of our midfield. Granted we dont have a lot of depth in that area but sometimes coaches have to create the depth. They keep going back to the same midfield group who have proven for years they are not up to it. For gods sake try something different Owens was having a stinker throw him in there, Stocker is a midfielder try him in there, Gresham was really poor he looks like he has emotionally checked out - so why play him. We just sat back and watched Richmond dominate stoppages and that set up there win.

Howard is an average player at best and it was the right move to sub him off, but where do we go from there?