Autopsy Round 14, 2023: Richmond v St.Kilda

[George]

Whats the point in playing finals when we are obviously not good enough to go any where?

Because it helps bring good players into the club and elevates our standing in the league

Regarding Howard, keep him in the VFL the rest of the year and get rid of him come seasons end. Never seen anything like it before, not up to standard at all.

 

[MickG88]

I just thought that the footy gods weren't going to allow Richmond to lose last night, I don't know what type of deal Cotchin made but they really love him.
Every sneaky snap at goal went in for Richmond, every bounce of the ball went their way and even the weather turn it on for Richmond. We were pushing a boulder up hill and everytime we were looking good, we lost footing and the boulder squished us.

 

[AirWinmar]

I see the game like this, we started off very well. Then we started playing like millionaires. Tigys kicked some goals from long range, which shouldn't have caused us to drop our bundle as they were fairly low percentage, but we did. Came out strong in the 3rd and were back in it. Fluffed our chances in the 4th, but probably didn't deserve to win it tbh.

We really need to increase our mental strength and composure when it gets hot. Hopefully a good "audit"

 

[PoppedCorn]

Doogle in the dry is not the greatest and hind sight now tells me i should of known he would get worse in terrible weather

Two stupid loses and still 5th


The centre is our prob we can an all see it

 

[pebblesofsand]

I just thought that the footy gods weren't going to allow Richmond to lose last night, I don't know what type of deal Cotchin made but they really love him.
Every sneaky snap at goal went in for Richmond, every bounce of the ball went their way and even the weather turn it on for Richmond. We were pushing a boulder up hill and everytime we were looking good, we lost footing and the boulder squished us.

Nah - everyone's shite, the coaching staff are shite, the administration is shite, the fans are shite but here we are 5th and two games clear of 9th spot (unless the Suns roll the Blues today)

Oh woe is me!!!!!

 

[Jesuswasacarpenter]

Between Enright, Harvey, Hayes and Lyon I'm sure nothing is going unnoticed or unlearned. I've got a fair bit of faith in that group.

Whatever we BigFooty types are seeing, they're probably watching over and again on review.
Would love to be a fly on the wall in the coaches box and get their real thoughts on it all when the cameras aren't rolling.

Rtb was very animated last night both in the box and when on the boundary line, and showed his disappointment in a very measured way in the presser.

 

[The Cobra]

Still so disappointed with last night though Richmond are now playing pretty decent footy.

Bit of perspective.

Positives: we have some young guns emerging, excellent coaching group, training standards have definitely improved & we have excellent facilities.

However, just maybe that’s as good as many of these players can be. Have too many of these guys who have been in our system for say 5+ years just picked up too many bad habits that they either can’t, or don’t want to, break?

We all want to win & make finals - that is a given. But if a player like Ross is playing poorly or Steele/Wood is playing injured we seriously need to look at playing Bytel and persisting now with Windhager to see if they are up to the standard (Bytel) or get more experience (Windhager).

I know the Club will deny it, but there is some pressure on RTB to win more than the 11 games we did last year for optics - hence maybe some short term decision making?

The coaches have shown they can improve blokes who have some ability & want to do the work (Stocker, Butler seems back on track).

I’m happy to take a longer term perspective, as you can only squeeze so much out of this lemon! RTB is going to have to put a line through quite a few guys at the end of the season who have no upside & I’m sure he will because he is ruthless. The challenge is getting in the right talent that is already at the level or prepared to do the work.

Critical off season coming up.

 

[Saints43]

Clear as day when need a midfielder

Watch us blow our 1st pick on the spud that is TDK

We chased JDG, exactly the type we need, as a free agent last year so the club is obviously well aware.

 

[kernelT]

At least we have Jacob Hopper

2

Jacob Hopper

Age

27

Ht

187cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.0

5star

K

9.9

4star

HB

11.1

5star

M

2.9

3star

T

4.5

5star

CL

4.3

5star

D

17.6

4star

K

8.8

4star

HB

8.9

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

4.6

5star

CL

4.0

5star

D

18.6

5star

K

8.4

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.8

5star

CL

3.4

5star

to come back into the si… wait, no that is the other team.

 

[Saints43]

Now we have found our level after the new coach bounce, there will be a big clean out at the end of the year. Need to drop Steele for his own good, a shadow of what he used to be. He’s either not healthy or has fallen to bits under Lyon. Also should drop Howard, Gresham, Ross as a start and play the kids, no point to playing them, they’ll all be gone. Also need to develop Owens, Pou and Windy in the guts, will lose games this year but who cares. Put Sharman into the forward line permanently so Owens is on ball 70%.

I assume you'll also be happy to win one more game for the year if we implement that plan?

 

[Mowman]

Our midfield is good enough when everyone is fit and firing but that rarely happens in any side. A good list manager is essential now. Ours is very suspect.
I don’t think it is good enough to mix it with good teams and take us to where we want Top 4

At times when they all play at their best it is good but they can’t do it often enough and have proven that over the last few years

Positive about last night was Windy was very good

 

[bergholt]

Obviously everyone is entitled to an opinion but I’d have given most of my appendages to have either (or both) in saints colors on the field.

Ruthless and aggressive contest beasts. Selwood and Cotch have 4 flags as captains which is 3 more than every saints captain combined. Never understood the hate for either, both first ballot hall of famers and genuine legends.

Both can be true. Every other supporter hated Milney but we loved having him in our colours.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Our midfield is good enough when everyone is fit and firing but that rarely happens in any side. A good list manager is essential now. Ours is very suspect.
I don’t think it is good enough to mix it with good teams and take us to where we want Top 4

At times when they all play at their best it is good but they can’t do it often enough and have proven that over the last few years

Positive about last night was Windy was very good

Yep Windy needs to be a permanent fixture now. He and Owens try harder than any other in there.

 

[Saint Shags]

I like it same senior core letting us down
Let’s find out what others can do
RTB. Saying Steele isn’t injured

Agreed.
Time to make the statement.
We'll at least find out whether the likes of Bytel and co are worth keeping at all.
I heard Lyon say that and thought what a load of BS. Bloke should never have been rushed back.
Based on that I'd nearly say leave Ross in purely because he isn't banged up like Steele. Give the Captain time to actually recover.

 

[Joffaboy]

Our midfield is good enough when everyone is fit and firing but that rarely happens in any side. A good list manager is essential now. Ours is very suspect.
I don’t think it is good enough to mix it with good teams and take us to where we want Top 4

At times when they all play at their best it is good but they can’t do it often enough and have proven that over the last few years

Positive about last night was Windy was very good

Yup, we have known for a couple of seasons we are a key back another quality mid and some support for Marshall short.
The injuries at the start of the season were a blessing, coupled with the comp didn't know how we would play had us winning. Comp has worked us out so it gets more difficult.
However, Owens, Naz, Phillipou, Hammer, Stocker, last night Windy are the young basis to work with.
We finally have some awesome kids to build around.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Sully111]

Sat through the rain for this one, left very disappointed. Some quick ones then a long one. Excuse my negativity - I’m flat after this one.

-Howard is a liability. So important structurally but deserves a run in the 2s. He’s a statement omission surely. Not good enough.

-Time to stop playing Steele. Not fair on him or us at the moment. Extended rest and/or surgery, whatever he needs. He seems physically and mentally shot.

-Disappointed we didn’t try something with Owens. Couldn’t get into the game. Not bad for his development to make him persist and work through it, but would LOVE to see a small stint in the midfield.

-Sinclair seemed our only clean player. His hands in the wet were superb. Disappointed he didn’t get a run through midfield with the game on the line.

-Tigers had numbers everywhere. Killed us on the spread. Are we a running side or is that a myth? We are cats to milk, but don’t get the milk! Our midfield is getting horribly outplayed every week.

-Butler superb.

-Nas not perfect but he’s been consistently good. Going to be a star. We have a great core of 4-5 young players who could be our next wave of contenders if we get it right and build around them.

-Jade Gresham
I’ve been an advocate for a long time. Have seen something special in him. Strong through the legs, a nice step. I always thought he’d get it together.

I spent a good 10m watching him closely on and off the ball last night given he’s out of contract. IT WAS UGLY.

Nobody loves the introduction of zone defence more than Jade Gresham. He’s unaccountable and he pretends.

When we don’t have possession he consistently fails to track his man and work hard into defence. He consistently lets his opponents get space goal side in the hope of a cheapie. He was directly responsible for Short’s second goal - ignore the tv coverage which made it look like NWM’s fault. Gresham was shoulder to shoulder with him and let him run, realized he’d screwed up then called NWM away from his man to cover but way too late.

He is a lazy, pathetic, selfish footballer and he needs to go. He has the nerve to shake his head at the defenders after one play where he watched his own man waltz past him, forcing the defenders to leave their players to cover.

He is an absolute liability who cares about one person - himself.

People get seduced by Gresham when he sparkles occasionally.

Most overrated player on our list and has been for some time

 

[BucketsandBanger]

I assume you'll also be happy to win one more game for the year if we implement that plan?

Honestly? Yes. We need two more good drafts at least. Either way, I reckon we’ll win 4 more games for the year at best and finish around 9th. As we have been forever we are in no man’s land in regards to the current senior players. But for the first time in forever there is a path out with the young core we have in place. Those 4 players are performing so poorly that dropping them wouldn’t have a dramatic impact on results anyway IMO. It would have been better to not have the sugar rush at the start of the year in retrospect.

 

[phantom13]

Both can be true. Every other supporter hated Milney but we loved having him in our colours.

Milney didn’t captain flags and win brownlows, milney also did a lot of stuff off field that Cotch and Selwood didn’t.

I understand disliking them because they’ve been incredibly successful but people saying they’re “unlikeable” for random non disclosed reasons smack of jealousy.

 

[Saint Shags]

So we almost made finals last year, but didn’t.
Who said we miss this year? I doubt they’re capping their expectations.
Didnt we always say the coach is as good as the list? And haven’t we all been complaining that our midfield is bog ordinary?
Well it’s not easy ( in fact impossible) to actually change the list when you walk into the job after trade/ draft week.

Mowman was getting at the fact that to all and sundry on here we had a shit coach last year and only missed the finals by a game.

Fast forward to this year and having the master coach on board with a dream team of assistants. Coupled with an easier draw and how we started, missing finals now would be an even bigger failure. And I agree with the statement.
Does our list have holes. Yep been saying that for years. We need to focus on the midfield. But all we've heard about is TdK and McKay. We need explosive grunt mids and need them quick.

The biggest gripe I have is that since the Carlton game our mids have been poor. But I'm yet to see a statement made by the selection committee. There are at least 2 full time mids and 1 part timer that over the past 2 months should have been dropped.
We all heard this year about selection integrity. Well it's about goddamn time that we start seeing some. Because it's the same senior blokes this year that are getting a free ride again.

 

[saintron]

Why kick it to a contest. Have someone wide on both sides and kick it to them, plus have someone at the feet of the contest both in front and back and bloody man up beside the opposition. Get in front not behind. Simple basic football skills.

 

[jwikked]

Makes me wonder the impact Degoey would have had if we landed him.

We’ve only been smashed in one game, every other game was winnable but poor skills let us down.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Because it helps bring good players into the club and elevates our standing in the league

Regarding Howard, keep him in the VFL the rest of the year and get rid of him come seasons end. Never seen anything like it before, not up to standard at all.

Dont get me wrong I do want the club to play finals, but on our current trajectory if we do, we will just fall in and get smashed when they come around. The other benefit is the dollars and hope finals bring supporters - but the reality is with our current list we are simply not good enough! We may get back some players who could make difference in Jones, McKenzie, Coffield & Hayes but thats a big ask given the amount of footy they have all missed. Otherwise we have a complete void of midfield depth even at VFL level and our key tall depth are all skinny young kids, they are years away from becoming serious AFL players. Then we have a couple of crocs like Cordy & Campbell who are really just break the glass in case of emergency players.

If we were to convince anyone to move, that work has already been done! Its what the coach can sell about the clubs future, a lot more important than playing finals this year. Players are not stupid its about the potential to win flags, the direction of the club, not the club playing finals the year before they arrive! I think if Lyon had of been coaching last year we would have got De Goey over the line regardless of our ladder position.

Obviously all players want to play finals but the majority make up there minds about moving clubs a long time before the finals come around. I think that really only applies if the club are genuine premiership chances - or are one of the big Vic clubs. It might add a little to the attraction, but being competitive and selling what the player brings to the club are as important. I think the entire AFL industry knows Lyon is a very good coach and with the right players he can take a club to consistent finals.

We have shown we can be competitive but desperately need elite midfielders to go to the next level. To bring one or more in we will need either decent draft capital or $$$. The perfect player would be Darcy Parish but the chances of him moving even for big $$$ are slight. I havent heard anything else about us targetting elite ready to go mids? That means we need to go to the draft to pick up the players we need - and whats better at the draft than higher draft picks. Apart from Gresham & Billings I cant see the club trading out any other players of value. So I think we may need to suck up another year of no finals and go back to the draft before we can have a realistic tilt.

Hopefully I am wrong and we can majically become a real finals threat, but I have seen enough of our AFL & VFL players to be more of a realist this year.

 

[beside the seaside]

The obvious quick fix in the midfield is giving Steele a rest and he comes back his old self, and somehow by some miracle Zak Jones

3

Zak Jones

Age

29

Ht

182cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.8

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.8

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.0

5star

CL

1.7

4star

D

19.1

4star

K

10.6

4star

HB

8.6

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.1

4star

CL

4.9

5star

D

7.0

2star

K

2.8

1star

HB

4.2

4star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.6

4star

CL

1.0

3star

gets back and stays fit and firing.

In the long term we need to pray that the likes of Windy, Owens and Pou become A graders in there.

The situation with Steele is very frustrating as a supporter because we need his best out there. He must be hating it.

I guess a positive from the game is we got slaughtered in the middle and still got ourselves in a position to win but stuffed our lines. So other parts of our game seem to be working but without a good midfield you're pushing the proverbial uphill.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Makes me wonder the impact Degoey would have had if we landed him.

We’ve only been smashed in one game, every other game was winnable but poor skills let us down.

Was thinking about this just before as well. Would have been a massive game-changer for us going forward. He’s the exact type we need and then going forward we’d have Owens, Windy, Pou, Clark and hopefully a back-to-his-best Steele in there with him.

And according to Graeme Wright it was an extremely close call. They thought they’d lost him.

 

[malevu]

Mowman was getting at the fact that to all and sundry on here we had a s**t coach last year and only missed the finals by a game.

Fast forward to this year and having the master coach on board with a dream team of assistants. Coupled with an easier draw and how we started, missing finals now would be an even bigger failure. And I agree with the statement.
Does our list have holes. Yep been saying that for years. We need to focus on the midfield. But all we've heard about is TdK and McKay. We need explosive grunt mids and need them quick.

The biggest gripe I have is that since the Carlton game our mids have been poor. But I'm yet to see a statement made by the selection committee. There are at least 2 full time mids and 1 part timer that over the past 2 months should have been dropped.
We all heard this year about selection integrity. Well it's about goddamn time that we start seeing some. Because it's the same senior blokes this year that are getting a free ride again.

The main reason some are getting a free ride is that there's nothing at Sandy to bring in.

It's easy to forget that Jones, DMac, Coffield, Hayes, Billings have been unsighted this year. Add Clark unavailable again to that list. If some of them were available I think we'd have more selection integrity.