Toast Round 15 = Collingwood 82-80 Adelaide

[Big Bryza]

I think we can get by without Steele, although we’re obviously better with him in the side, but De Goey provides something we can’t replace and can only barely cover for. The rest of our midfield is slow. When Taylor Adams is your fastest mid, because Mitchell and Pendlebury are your alternatives, you have problems. We need De Goey back and one of Adams/Mitchell rotating up forward rather than both getting CBAs together.

Nick gave us enough pace in midfield to squeak by yesterday, but the dropoff has been stark.

I think you're underselling his form this season, has been enormous in the first half of the season. Would have been comfortably top 5 in the BnF before his injury. Will be a huge addition to our outside run and carry upon his return.

 

[Mark W]

Just on the topic of rucks... I'm shocked to see ROB only had one more mark than DC. Otherwise it looks like Cameron actually played a better game on paper. I got very nervous seeing a few contests in their forward half. Almost felt like we had him better controlled last time with Frampton!

yup, my impression was that ROB soundly defeated DC, yet the stats say it was pretty even...

 

[Mark W]

I think for me this highlights Crisp’s drop off yesterday. Ordinarily he’s the one you’d bank on filling the breach in JDG’s absence with his dash around stoppage and whilst he stood up v Melbourne Dawson was too much for him.

I wonder whether its time for Crispy to return to his half back roots? ....Doesnt help the pace of the midfield though..

 

[Scodog10]

I wonder whether its time for Crispy to return to his half back roots? ....Doesnt help the pace of the midfield though..

Once JDG returns it has to go that way, IMO. Against GC I’m torn and will back in the coaches. The two options are:

1. Go head to head with their contested ball and get them on turnover with our bounce off half back and wing.

2. Try to get them with run through the middle with Crisp, Daicos x2 and perhaps even Elliott spending more time alongside Mitchell and Pendles.

I think we’ll go head to head and back in our ability to beat them on the outside. Without JDG as that flex mid though I think they’ll really trouble us. Expect Miller to be back as well…

 

[CasuallyDressed]

Watching Adelaide fans claim "Vic Bias" while conveniently ignoring the absolute reaming Collingwood got in round 7 and still won the game.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I think you're underselling his form this season, has been enormous in the first half of the season. Would have been comfortably top 5 in the BnF before his injury. Will be a huge addition to our outside run and carry upon his return.

Yes, perhaps poor choice of words by me. I think Steele is a significant loss, but we have some ways of mitigating that loss to an extent.

Jordy is a near-terminal loss, and at the moment I couldn’t see us beating a Port away or Brisbane away without him. He is not alone in that tier of players, which almost certainly includes Moore and Nick Daicos, but I’m not sure I’d include Steele in it.

 

[Apples]

Cameron is currently of far more value to the team than Johnson. If Cox rucks a 2nd ruck is still needed. Johnson and McStay have not impressed in that role. Cameron was good in the final quarter. Also allows Cox to play forward - he kicked 2 vital goals in the last quarter.

Like you, I am not sold yet on McStay.

I think people may have forgotten the reasons Collingwood recruited McStay. We didn't think he'd kick 4 a week at full forward. He's never been that type of player. We recruited him to give the team better structure up forward and to allow Mihocek to be the second banana. When fit, he comes straight back in for mine. Until then, Johnson goes out due to poor form and we give Krueger another chance.

Collingwood is playing well below its best, yet sits atop the ladder. I'd rather be us than the Power. Lots of upside still for the Pies.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I think people may have forgotten the reasons Collingwood recruited McStay. We didn't think he'd kick 4 a week at full forward. He's never been that type of player. We recruited him to give the team better structure up forward and to allow Mihocek to be the second banana. When fit, he comes straight back in for mine. Until then, Johnson goes out due to poor form and we give Krueger another chance.

Collingwood is playing well below its best, yet sits atop the ladder. I'd rather be us than the Power. Lots of upside still for the Pies.

Although the role I was referring to was ruck - McStay was disappointing in his one outing for us a ruckman, both in terms of hit-outs and possessions. I am aware that we didn't recruit him as a significant goal kicker or take towering marks at CHF.

 

[Scodog10]

Yes, perhaps poor choice of words by me. I think Steele is a significant loss, but we have some ways of mitigating that loss to an extent.

Jordy is a near-terminal loss, and at the moment I couldn’t see us beating a Port away or Brisbane away without him. He is not alone in that tier of players, which almost certainly includes Moore and Nick Daicos, but I’m not sure I’d include Steele in it.

To follow on from this I think McStay is a Steele type structural loss.

Big Bryza made a good point referencing Hardwick with system and stars and whilst McStay certainly doesn’t fit in the star category I think his output at an absolute bare minimum will cover Johnson. It’s then that system impact through contest that will add another dimension. I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw Frampton return this week in place of Johnson to play as a fwd ruck and break in case of emergency defender.

One other point to highlight is that Adelaide are consistently putting their best 23 out there. I can’t readily name a player they’ve missed for any portion of the year which isn’t a luxury we’ve had because it’s felt like we’ve had fingers in the dam wall all year. None have quite been terminal, but boy it’d be nice to get a month to bed down our best 23 in the lead up to September.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

It’s going to happen with Doedee, but yes I agree, and am looking forward to what we can put together if/when we get more of our best 23 on the park for a solid block of games (which hopefully extends all the way to the GF).

 

[Stripes B and W]

I think you're underselling his form this season, has been enormous in the first half of the season. Would have been comfortably top 5 in the BnF before his injury. Will be a huge addition to our outside run and carry upon his return.

I might be over rating Steele but I have thought for the most part he has been sensational on his wing and wouldnt have been far from AA selection this year prior the the injury. I thought he would, and has been, a huge out. Wing is a really challenging and vital role ( Sco covered it earlier ) and we have been just 'filling in' without SS. Will be a huge return in a couple of weeks.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I might be over rating Steele but I have thought for the most part he has been sensational on his wing and wouldnt have been far from AA selection this year prior the the injury. I thought he would, and has been, a huge out. Wing is a really challenging and vital role ( Sco covered it earlier ) and we have been just 'filling in' without SS. Will be a huge return in a couple of weeks.

Yep, Jordy back round 17 and Steele aiming for round 18 sounds good to me. Give them 2 and 1 games respectively before travelling to face Port.

 

[Scodog10]

It’s going to happen with Doedee, but yes I agree, and am looking forward to what we can put together if/when we get more of our best 23 on the park for a solid block of games (which hopefully extends all the way to the GF).

I’m not convinced Doedee’s in their best 23 anymore. They were struggling to find a spot for Worrell so that injury might have been a blessing in disguise and a good time for Doedee to move. He would be the one.

 

[Roverjg]

No he wasn’t, they just couldn’t play in the same team. Witts was always going to take time to develop after he was drafted in 2011, but he was AFL ready by 2015 & 16. He was dominating VFL in his last couple of years at Collingwood. Terms like “miles ahead” and “streets ahead” are the territory of Grundy v Tim English circa 2018 & 2019. Witts v Grundy 1st head to head post Witts trade in 2017:

Grundy - 16 disposals, 2 marks, 4 clearances, 2 tackles, 42 hitouts, 5 clangers, 3 turnovers, 3 score involvements, 9 PAs
Witts - 16 disposals, 3 marks, 4 clearances, 4 tackles, 42 hitouts, 2 clangers, 2 turnovers, 6 score involvements, 15 PAs

Hardly reflective of either “streets” or “miles” ahead..

For the same period they were both at the Pies 2013-2016 Witts had played 40 games and Grundy had played 62. Grundy was clearly the preferred option because as you stated they couldn't play in the same team. Grundy effectively an extra season on Witts. During that period Grundy was in front in all statisical categories.

On SM-N975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Bianconeri]

I think we can get by without Steele, although we’re obviously better with him in the side, but De Goey provides something we can’t replace and can only barely cover for. The rest of our midfield is slow. When Taylor Adams is your fastest mid, because Mitchell and Pendlebury are your alternatives, you have problems. We need De Goey back and one of Adams/Mitchell rotating up forward rather than both getting CBAs together.

Nick gave us enough pace in midfield to squeak by yesterday, but the dropoff has been stark.

I thought WHE would be able to cover the loss of Sidebottom whilst adding an aerial dimension to the wing but so far he’s only shown the the gulf of class between the two.

We definitely miss Sidebottom’s composure, contested ability and nous.

De Goey is a bigger loss as were downgrading both the midfield and the backline when we move Nick Daicos out of there so I won’t disagree there.

 

[neilk]

Might be against popular opinion here on the Pies board but I thought it was hilarious when Keays yanked Coxy's glasses off

A finger in the eye while yanking them off could have been extremely dangerous for Mason.

 

[eyeroller]

They’re custom made, cost like $3k and are a tool of trade. Imagine if he broke them and it took weeks for Cox to get a replacement? Headbands yeah I get, but that was like ripping a bandage off a guy that’s had his head split open. Not cool and even nasty in a sniperish way doing it from behind…

Can you imagine a player going up to Angus Brayshaw, for example, and ripping his helmet off? It's unsportmanlike

 

[No SPIN]

To follow on from this I think McStay is a Steele type structural loss.

Big Bryza made a good point referencing Hardwick with system and stars and whilst McStay certainly doesn’t fit in the star category I think his output at an absolute bare minimum will cover Johnson. It’s then that system impact through contest that will add another dimension. I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw Frampton return this week in place of Johnson to play as a fwd ruck and break in case of emergency defender.

One other point to highlight is that Adelaide are consistently putting their best 23 out there. I can’t readily name a player they’ve missed for any portion of the year which isn’t a luxury we’ve had because it’s felt like we’ve had fingers in the dam wall all year. None have quite been terminal, but boy it’d be nice to get a month to bed down our best 23 in the lead up to September.

Agree - Re Frampton that he should be tried as a Ruck Fwd and replace AJ.
And his additional versatility to play back if needed, further supports his selection.

 

[Bianconeri]

I thought WHE would be able to cover the loss of Sidebottom whilst adding an aerial dimension to the wing but so far he’s only shown the the gulf of class between the two.

We definitely miss Sidebottom’s composure, contested ability and nous.

De Goey is a bigger loss as we’re downgrading both the midfield and the backline when we move Nick Daicos out of there so I won’t disagree there.

Just to add on the topic of Steele

His loss also limits our ability to roll Josh Daicos through the midfield to add extra pace.

 

[Big Bryza]

Agree - Re Frampton that he should be tried as a Ruck Fwd and replace AJ.
And his additional versatility to play back if needed, further supports his selection.

i think it's worth exploring.

People dismiss Frampton because he was shit for the first 6 years of his career.

He improved out of sight last season despite being stuck in the 2's. He has shown this season that he comfortably belongs at AFL level.

 

[unplugged]

Given the situation of the game it boggles the mind that Elliott is the one defending Dawson one out. Kissed on the proverbial there and it is amazing how the karma bus works after what happened last time up against them.

Amazing run of events, hey?

Not sure if it was coaching or initiative on his behalf but Dawson taking himself off the ball and putting himself down forward as an extra was phenomenal, because at that stage we probably could've had an extra defender there already.

Although we initially manned Dawson up and left the other forward free, it's lucky they didn't get a quick clearance from the HFF because they had us out numbered at ground level.

In hindsight you could argue that Dawson's absence from the stoppage actually cost them and it was a risk that didn't pay off.

I'm very curious as to whether Elliott genuinely saw the outnumber and took it upon himself, or if he was directed to go down back in that instance. Not sure if he was coming off the bench or where he was prior. The things you don't see on TV!

 

[sam_e]

For the same period they were both at the Pies 2013-2016 Witts had played 40 games and Grundy had played 62. Grundy was clearly the preferred option because as you stated they couldn't play in the same team. Grundy effectively an extra season on Witts. During that period Grundy was in front in all statisical categories.

On SM-N975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

they could if a) Bucks preferred a two ruck set-up (which he did fleetingly for a handful of games) and, more importantly, b) Grundles was given adequate encouragement and displayed a propensity to add strings to his game, to better his forward craft

 

[Bianconeri]

they could if a) Bucks preferred a two ruck set-up (which he did fleetingly for a handful of games) and, more importantly, b) Grundles was given adequate encouragement and displayed a propensity to add strings to his game, to better his forward craft

Even if we did run a two ruck set up at that time the second ruck that would likely be picked was Cox as he had the most potential as a forward out of the three.

 

[unplugged]

Just reminiscing now... I love that Tay Adams saw the goggles getting pulled off Cox and went to go so hard at Keays that he fell over and just looked silly

 

[BuildEmUp]

Can you imagine a player going up to Angus Brayshaw, for example, and ripping his helmet off? It's unsportmanlike

and cowardly, as he did from behind ... gutless cowardly attack .. shame bruzzy didnt get a chance to run thru him ..