Autopsy Round 19 = Hawthorn 133-67 Collingwood

[No SPIN]

Probably because we have had a couple of one-in-a generation players, and despite our poor trading, we still have won a couple of GFs.
You pointed out Geelong have traded badly as well.
How many GF's have they been in, and how many have they won in the last 19 years? And how many finals they ave missed?
Why haven't we be as good as them recently, and have a mini dynasty?
How come Richmond and Hawthorn have been better recently?

Geel have a huge Home Ground advantage that gets them a walk up start to finals.
Talk about once in a generation players they’ve had far more than most.
When you spend years at the bottom of the ladder you get picks and cap space to build a dynasty- which is exactly what happened with Rich and Hawks. Now Hawks have again been bottom dwellers for years and will surge.
We contend and never bottom out for years at a time - which frankly I prefer.

 

[Rusty Beam]

You know Hine is NOT the sole decision maker right?

I don’t think anyone thinks he’s the sole decision maker.

But he’s an extremely influential one, or at least he should be… And has been the one consistent decision maker throughout a long period of under performance in drafting and trading.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

Flys presser full of positive vibes. Personally I want him to go full on MM one day and today was the time to do a Dima and say it

You must have watched a different presser.
He was seething despite his controlled demeanor.

Yeah it was fairly measured. I liked the reference to being +3 at stoppages when there was no need, asking leaders to help out the inexperienced by giving instruction etc. That’s the type of info I want from a coach. The MM shit at pressers may have been good for some fans because it represented their anger but it wasn’t particularly insightful or constructive.

 

[Buckley is my hero]

Agree- Some of us have perspective but sadly a large number here have none. Clearly they want a VFL team full of Top picks and Flags, Finals and contending don’t matter.

None of us aren’t celebrating our premiership win. But don’t you think it was folly to trade for a player who doesn’t suit our needs while giving away a top 10 draft pick, and trading away a 21 yo premiership player for peanuts?

 

[No SPIN]

Think it’s time to replace hine and list team and start again

Too many fails
Where are the key position players ???

I’m looking at the flags he’s brought us.
It’s much more important.

 

[No SPIN]

None of us aren’t celebrating our premiership win. But don’t you think it was folly to trade for a player who doesn’t suit our needs while giving away a top 10 draft pick, and trading away a 21 yo premiership player for peanuts?

We gave away a 21 yo who had major deficiencies of which attitude and commitment were the most prominent.
If he’d consistently played like yesterday he would never have been traded.
We would never have traded our 1st for Schultz if we could have predicted the disaster this season has been.
Schultz absolutely fitted our needs, given Ginnivan’s exit, while HH and Joey weren’t expected to improve as they have.

 

[upnsmoke]

The day we all realised that we are in for a world of pain in the coming years.

Put the GF replay on fellas.

Actually no.

Pies will have a treasure trove to build a new team post Pendles, Howe, Sidebottom.

Schultz is not worth Pick 6 and Ginivan but he fits better with what Pies are aiming for.

I think Pies need another athletic tall defender to replace Murphy. And they then need to invest on a replacement or partner for Mitchell as a follows ruck rover. A young one. Macrae sadly hasn't lived up to it, but Pies can lure someone with maybe a 700K a year contract.


I think with Krueger, Staythe Pies have decent Key Forward size. They just need Reef to phase out Mihocek. Mihocek should be coming off thr bench as interchange in the next 2 years as he is still skilled and needed just that Pies need size and athleticism inside 50.

 

[BEEG]

Tom Mitchell isn’t what he was, obviously, and his form wasn’t flash early. But we haven’t replaced him at the coalface and we just have no grit in there. Nick is Nick, but Pendles is one armed, Crisp is more a runner, De Goey is like an elephant on ice skates with his movement.
We needed Long or Sullivan to offer us a bit in there, but perhaps it’s too much.
As a very starting point we look two key mids short, one stoppage specialist and another prime mover to take some focus off others.

Go get Jackson Macrae

 

[upnsmoke]

Not much of a corpse left to examine this time around I'm afraid Your Honour.

I think that last 10 minutes where we let them kick another 5 goals was pretty much the entire team from coaches down having a final "raising the white flag" moment, you can see it in everyone's faces now that they either don't have or know we don't have anything left to give, depending on which side of the fence they're sitting.

They've given up.

I think with the injuries and then lack of continuity combined with post premiership hang over.. it's too much.

Look at Geelong.

I think Pies need to write this season off ASAP and just blood the young.

Have Stay and Krueger play together along the smalls and give Reef a run as wing or midfield... he can be the next Crisp for all we know. His scouting report outlined his burst and strength in the middle... with his height he could be a hybrid player there. He is 21 years old so if he develops he could be a poor man's Bont.... no way near as good obviously but he just need to be able to hold his spot and not make mistakes.

 

[slugger01]

Geel have a huge Home Ground advantage that gets them a walk up start to finals.
Talk about once in a generation players they’ve had far more than most.
When you spend years at the bottom of the ladder you get picks and cap space to build a dynasty- which is exactly what happened with Rich and Hawks. Now Hawks have again been bottom dwellers for years and will surge.
We contend and never bottom out for years at a time - which frankly I prefer.

Geelong have traded very well, as well as getting a couple of generation players. Ablett, Hawkins, and maybe Selwood, but that is all. We have had similar. Don't confuse good players with generation players.
And they have had that ground for over ?? 100 years? why haven't they won all those 50 grand finals in that time, if that advantage was the crucial part??

Hawthorn??????????? Years at the bottom of the ladder. Surely you jest!

Hawthorn recent premiership years:1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014 and 2015.
Grand Finals lost: 1975. 1984, 1985, 1987, 2012. And then in between, most years in finals.

I would love to have been at the bottom all those years....

 

[cwoodgal]

I for one was quite upset when Ginni got traded, not only was he one of my favourites but I felt despite some of his shortcomings he still lots of potential to be a great player. I low key still wish he was playing for us but I acknowledge the fresh start of being in another team, new environment, different system could benefit him more.

However I personally think bobby hill is just as much as a great player who more then likely took his spot. Hill has not set the world on fire this year but he has done some amazing things and I hope we don’t lose him, I’d be gutted more if he left.

I also don’t think Schultz has been as bad as some think, it’s his first year with us learning the system. I say give him time. The 1st round pick was overs for him but there’s no point in dwelling over spilt milk….it happened and it’s done. Might come back and bite us on the @ss but that’s the gamble we took when we decided to do the trade


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[Dead Eye Didak]

In reality our first and second year players aren’t very good. Low draft picks and rookie upgrades outside the national draft isn’t the way of producing 10 year players. Our VFL team is near the bottom of the ladder so their lack of contribution to the senior team isn’t surprising. It has nothing to do with Fly’s coaching. I think you’re expecting too much.

The VFL team is near bottom of the ladder because of the injuries at AFL level. We have had to use something like 37 players on our list this season. In turn the VFL side has struggled.
The only thing with Fly, and he's had a fantastic 2 season's, this season will be an average one for him, is our game plan hasn't really evolved from the last 2 years. It looks like we don't have another option we can go to in terms of a game plan, whether that's complacency that we thought teams wouldn't work out how to basically blow up our game plan or we could continue to do what we have been the past 2 seasons, l'm not sure.
And with Moore, l don't think the coaching staff did the best they could do for him. I didn't understand yesterday when we were 10 goals down, the game and season were over, that we decide to move him forward and pinch hit in the ruck. To me continually playing Moore in the same position, in the same role and expecting a different result was just wishful thinking.
Moore should have been moved 4 weeks ago forward. I thought Frampton was playing well as a defender, before he was moved forward. Frampton then lost form and confidence and eventually we saw him dropped.
I would have kept Frampton back, with Howe and moved Moore forward to relieve him of the pressure he was under. Our captain is a shell of the defender he was in 2022/23, and each week it has been getting worse. I really expect to see Moore named full forward against Richmond. If not, then why??
In saying that l have faith in Fly, he has got us a premiership, and deserves the utmost respect, but unfortunately this season l feel the players have had average seasons and l don't think Fly has had his best year as coach. That can happen, we have had two prior huge years. Maybe fatigue has set in this year for everyone?
I believe we can bounce back next year. We have the talent, we have the coaches, we will add some players to our list, that hopefully can help in areas on the ground we need. I'm excited by some of the youth on the list. I think DeMattia, Jiath and Eyre will be very good players, and l hope they get a senior game or two before our season ends.

 

[cfc19902010]

I’m looking at the flags he’s brought us.
It’s much more important.

Some of the trades have obviously worked

Getting Mitchell Bobby and frampton agreed was good but our drafting has had numerous fails
I think it’s time to change list management team recruiters etc
Hine has been there along time and a change will be good IMO

 

[Buckley is my hero]

We gave away a 21 yo who had major deficiencies of which attitude and commitment were the most prominent.
If he’d consistently played like yesterday he would never have been traded.
We would never have traded our 1st for Schultz if we could have predicted the disaster this season has been.
Schultz absolutely fitted our needs, given Ginnivan’s exit, while HH and Joey weren’t expected to improve as they have.

Ok let’s look at it another way. We both agree that Jack Ginnivan isn’t the nicest prospective son-in-law for the daughter to bring home to meet her parents. However, he knows how to play football and he’s 5 years younger and more mobile than Schultz. We also have Richards and Harrison to play the forward role. So what logical sense did it make to trade away Ginnivan for nothing and give away a top 10 draft pick for someone who’s essentially a role player, other than Schultz decided to want to come and play for Collingwood?

 

[Roverjg]

We gave away a 21 yo who had major deficiencies of which attitude and commitment were the most prominent.
If he’d consistently played like yesterday he would never have been traded.
We would never have traded our 1st for Schultz if we could have predicted the disaster this season has been.
Schultz absolutely fitted our needs, given Ginnivan’s exit, while HH and Joey weren’t expected to improve as they have.

To be fair Ginnivan was never given the opportunity other than starvation corner

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[cfc19902010]

We gave away a 21 yo who had major deficiencies of which attitude and commitment were the most prominent.
If he’d consistently played like yesterday he would never have been traded.
We would never have traded our 1st for Schultz if we could have predicted the disaster this season has been.
Schultz absolutely fitted our needs, given Ginnivan’s exit, while HH and Joey weren’t expected to improve as they have.

Ginny will be a better player than Schultz IMO
He’s got more tricks which you need as a small forward
Yes obviously attitude problems with us but with maturity he will improve there and Mitchell will get the best out of him with their environment

 

[jathanas]

Ok let’s look at it another way. We both agree that Jack Ginnivan isn’t the nicest prospective son-in-law for the daughter to bring home to meet her parents. However, he knows how to play football and he’s 5 years younger and more mobile than Schultz. We also have Richards and Harrison to play the forward role. So what logical sense did it make to trade away Ginnivan for nothing and give away a top 10 draft pick for someone who’s essentially a role player, other than Schultz decided to want to come and play for Collingwood?

Hindsight being 20-20, that's valid.

Go back to the '23 GF and remember Ginni's game... and the few weeks that preceded it.

He's doing great at the Hawks but the player who had 30+ possessions yesterday is not the one we gave up. Perhaps he would never become that player at the Pies.

 

[Buckley is my hero]

The VFL team is near bottom of the ladder because of the injuries at AFL level. We have had to use something like 37 players on our list this season. In turn the VFL side has struggled.
The only thing with Fly, and he's had a fantastic 2 season's, this season will be an average one for him, is our game plan hasn't really evolved from the last 2 years. It looks like we don't have another option we can go to in terms of a game plan, whether that's complacency that we thought teams wouldn't work out how to basically blow up our game plan or we could continue to do what we have been the past 2 seasons, l'm not sure.
And with Moore, l don't think the coaching staff did the best they could do for him. I didn't understand yesterday when we were 10 goals down, the game and season were over, that we decide to move him forward and pinch hit in the ruck. To me continually playing Moore as in the same position, in the same role and expecting a different result was just wishful thinking.
Moore should have been moved 4 weeks ago forward. I thought Frampton was playing well as a defender, before he was moved forward. Frampton then lost form and confidence and eventually we saw him dropped.
I would have kept Frampton back, with Howe and moved Moore forward to relieve him of the pressure he was under. Our captain is a shell of the defender he was in 2022/23, and each week it has been getting worse. I really expect to see Moore named full forward against Richmond. If not, then why??
In saying that l have faith in Fly, he has got us a premiership, and deserves the utmost respect, but unfortunately this season l feel the players have had average seasons and l don't think Fly has had his best year as coach. That can happen, we have had two prior huge years. Maybe fatigue has set in this year for everyone.
I believe we can bounce back next year. We have the talent, we have the coaches, we will add some players to our list, that hopefully can help in areas on the ground we need. I'm excited by some of the youth on the list. I think DeMattia, Jiath and Eyre will be very good players, and l hope they get a senior game or two before our season ends.

I think you make a lot of sense in what you say, but whether we bounce back next year will depend on the development of players like Allan, Dematia, TJ, Harrison, Eyre, Dean, Steele and Smit. Malthouse used to say that your older players don’t get any better and players like Cox, Mitchell, Sidey, Pendles, Mihocek, WHE, Elliot and Howe are just about finished. I would attempt to squeeze another year out of Sidey and Howe and retire the others, then attempt to convert McCreery and Harrison into midfielders to generate a bit more pace out of the midfield. Crisp needs to return to the backline and Nick Daicos become a full time midfielder. Only then will we start to show improvement.

 

[Maggie5]

You must have watched a different presser.
He was seething despite his controlled demeanor.

I didn't see seething.

I thought it was laughable especially when he said the opposition is getting too much territory.

It has been happening for the past four weeks.

I hope that when they walk in on Monday, they will know they have lost. (badly)

 

[Buckley is my hero]

Hindsight being 20-20, that's valid.

Go back to the '23 GF and remember Ginni's game... and the few weeks that preceded it.

He's doing great at the Hawks but the player who had 30+ possessions yesterday is not the one we gave up. Perhaps he would never become that player at the Pies.

You forget he’s 21 years old.

 

[Doc1763]

well, I dont feel any less angry today!! What an absolute disaster this season has turned out to be.
Cant bring myself to watch Fly's presser. I cant imagine anything he said would make me feel any better.

 

[Sco80]

Yeah it was fairly measured. I liked the reference to being +3 at stoppages when there was no need, asking leaders to help out the inexperienced by giving instruction etc. That’s the type of info I want from a coach. The MM shit at pressers may have been good for some fans because it represented their anger but it wasn’t particularly insightful or constructive.

I miss the MM pressers at it always lit a fuse under us to perform better and it worked 99 percent of the time.

 

[jathanas]

You forget he’s 21 years old.

Not at all, and Ginni had an awesome game yesterday. Sometimes a change of environment is needed for this to happen.

He is well suited to Hawthorn and has expressed that he finds it easier to do well there. It wasn't the same for him at Collingwood.

 

[bucksisbest]

That was a career high possession game for Ginnivan yesterday, nearly 10 more than previous best. Could have kicked 4 or 5.

He looks fitter and lighter on his feet this year and looks better than he did last year with us.

But you do wonder if he goes anywhere near that level again, apart from against a current west coast level team.

We were so utterly pathetic yesterday and just completely rolled over, it is not exactly a good test case around decisions made previously.

When we were playing better last year he didn't look like he had the physical capabilities to go with the rest of the team and his playing for free kicks eventually became a distraction (and almost the only way he could win a kick when in congestion).

Maybe we made our call too early considering age (with the external issues a contributor), but I am still not yet convinced either way how it will end up in the longer term.

 

[manicpie]

Let's just be honest and say that we should have kept ginni. It was simply a personality clash with our coach that has backfired. Really disappointing when he left and will continue to be, the kid can play