Autopsy Round 19 = Hawthorn 133-67 Collingwood

[barrackers]

Far from the only position of concern, but what’s happened to our wings this year. 2023 it was Sidebottom and Daicos every week. This year it’s Daicos and a revolving door, often a spare half back or mid. Noble and Markov are amongst those who have trialled on a wing this year, but better behind the ball. I’d like to see us return to two pure wingers, perhaps Hill or Harrison for a full game there.

 

[No SPIN]

Nicely selected the periods to suit your argument..
Now, go back just an extra 3 years.. How do we compare for the period 2007-23?
??

I picked a period where we had both won a flag, close together ie. in consecutive years. To see how we have faired since, it’s a truer test of list management with both teams starting from the same point.

 

[jmac70]

Great to see McStay back.
Not too many other highlights, other than seeing a whole bunch of Hawthorn supporters thrown out for vaping.

Comedy gold.

 

[loki04]

I don’t think it’s right to celebrate Shultz trade at start of the year and then bag the trade now. If you were never a fan of the trade, fine, bag away. But I feel there’s a lot of Derek Hindsight Campaigners on this site.

You need to read the trade thread if you believe that. The board was genuinely split over it, the usual club apologists vs the realists who called into question the cost of the trade.

 

[loki04]

We don’t get the “ generous “ trades that Geelong and Carlton seem to get gifted with. GWS and GC especially charitable but not with us. And we don’t have a high first round pick.

We also don't have the luxury hiding players in the Geelong falcons factory.

 

[No SPIN]

They have started a new build and are back up there.

It's hard to see us rebounding in 2025 with some talented teams chasing hard and our juniour talent not up to the same standards. Both North Melb and Hawks on the up.

Sydney will stay strong.

It doesn’t change the reality that for all the claims of great list management they have not done better than Hine in that time.

 

[loki04]

Agree totally. The lack of grit in our midfield is the key issue. Every other malady springs from that source. If you could suddenly plug two competent inside mids into the team we have, we would be in contention - even with the injury crisis.

It's a big part but imo there are other issues as well.

Like players want to run hard to defend when the opponent breaks.

Teams are also sagging out the back and our defensive line let's them stay there and we are getting burnt as they can't make up the gap.

 

[loki04]

It doesn’t change the reality that for all the claims of great list management they have not done better than Hine in that time.

Geelong? Well they traded thier way to one last flag but didn't repeat the dynasty team they built through 99 to 01 drafts.

Sr36 is the person who is using them to build a case against using traditional rebuild vs hit and run rebuilds that may pinch flags.

Depends what you find more enjoyable I guess.

Personally there is also some satisfaction seeing a young talented group build together and come out dominant team at the end. Like 2010/2011 side.

 

[Buckley is my hero]

The leadership on field this season had been very poor. The first year players are running around like headless chooks, with no direction. Experienced players are in wrong positions because they aren't communicating with their teammates, and we see the opposition get easy goals out the back or are able to move the ball easily with players all alone for some reason, because we will have 2 or 3 of our players all standing around in the same position which in turn opens us up. Zero communication, particularly from the leaders who should be controlling what's happening on field.
I love Fly, but just need him to get agro and fire up these guys, because right now it doesn't look like he has the full buy in from the playing group. Unfortunately for Fly, our captain is having a horrible season not only as a player but as a captain, whose leadership, on field, has been non existent this season.....

In reality our first and second year players aren’t very good. Low draft picks and rookie upgrades outside the national draft isn’t the way of producing 10 year players. Our VFL team is near the bottom of the ladder so their lack of contribution to the senior team isn’t surprising. It has nothing to do with Fly’s coaching. I think you’re expecting too much.

 

[spartan-magpie]

We are underestimating the loss of Mitchell & Adams combined with a crap year for JDG & Pendles.

-50 disposals, -20 clearances, -15 tackles & -20 contested possessions.

Hence the consistent smashing in the midfield.

Murphy and not bringing in some sort of decent replacement has been our biggest loss in my opinion.

To go go from a miserly group with attacking nous to whatever it is now has been very painful to watch.


I do agree on your thought too. We've completely lost our way.

I’m just hoping for a 5-0 finsh of to the season for a chance to defend our flag.

 

[cfc19902010]

Think it’s time to replace hine and list team and start again

Too many fails
Where are the key position players ???

 

[Buckley is my hero]

He was nicked off for off field behaviour. I think the coach and some players could not stand the boy. He is all class with the pill in hand and was devastating today. I still think Schultz will become a very valuable addition to our list. I always loved Ginnivan because he made things happen every time he touched the ball. He looks fitter and quicker at the Hawks.

We lack power forwards, quality tall defenders and leg speed through the middle. Nothing against Schultz, but how does he solve any of that?

 

[JLC]

Great to see McStay back.
Not too many other highlights, other than seeing a whole bunch of Hawthorn supporters thrown out for vaping.

Comedy gold.

I think it was their biggest crowd for the season? And I wasn't surprised given that a few of the groups in front of me had no idea how to scan a ticket.

So maybe some were not aware of vaping either lol

They are not exactly the most loyal fan base.

Agree re McStay - very pleased he made it through.

 

[BEEG]

We did exceptionally well to snatch a Premiership last year with a seriously flawed list which was already over-reliant on too many aging warriors. Thankfully - miraculously - those aging warriors turned back the clock for one glorious season but now reality has set in.

Our recruiters and list managers (who set the contracts) have seriously damaged our list over the past decade. Aside from the obvious Nick Daicos, we have no young talent coming through and no draft picks or valuable tradable players from which to rebuild.

But we won a Premiership. Much better than to be like Brisbane, GWS and Port who have been near the top for a decade and have no Flags to show for it.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Spot on, I said all this beginning of the year and got told I was an idiot.

The drafts have been an absolute disaster for Collingwood for way to long.

If Collingwood are headed towards a rebuild then we need the right people recruiting scouting young talent because atm they are not it.

 

[No SPIN]

Ahh bullshit. He was a young gun drafted during the covid bullshit and got he's chance and debuted in 2021.
Had a sensational year in 22 was in and out in 23 but a deserved premiership player in 23.
Than gets somehow traded out. (For what I'll never know)
Good luck.to.him but this was a major **** up
The game is about to trend in the ginnivan direction not the old fart control everyone don't do anything
It was a major list management mistake

Noble deserved premiership NOT Ginnivan.
Ginnivan plays one good game and you think he shouldn’t have been traded, conveniently forgetting all his issues both on and off the field.
If he showed the same application last year as he did yesterday he would never have been traded.

Schultz is a much more complete player.

 

[domus]

Degoey playing wounded.
Nick clearly hampered with his explosive dash non existent yesterday.
Josh rumoured to be carrying an injury.
Pendles still carrying that bicep industry.
Players in and players out on an endless cycle of injury.
Key forwards continually absent and not one of them getting a decent run of games.
This wears a team down. The load on younger players reaches a tipping point.
Poor form of Moore , partly due again to the absence of Murphy who was a listed player in 2024. The media tend to forget this when injuries are mentioned.
Lack of continuity and an interrupted season can also effect a players form.

That said, you still cannot accept performances like yesterday but I've no doubt the inner sanctum is aware of these factors .

Things are never as good or as grim as they seem. A good break, a good preseason, a better run with injury, picking up a couple of decent additions with some astute trading and we can be back in the mix next year.

 

[No SPIN]

Fallen off the cliff big time.
Extremely disappointing. Didn’t think going b to b was achievable when looking cold and hard at the squad and the great run with injury/close results we had in ‘23. A lot of squad played above themselves and have now settled back into their level.
What was always needed this year was more 3rd tier players to step up. It hasn’t happened. And our second tier players have plateaued if not dropped back.
And watching Pendles today… well he might still be our onfield coach, but his football has slipped. He and Sidey have been stalwarts but of course time stands still for no one. With their inevitable end coming there had to be others stepping into those roles. I don’t see anyone putting their hand up. (Not including Daicos in this conversation because he is the icing on the cake of a classic Pendlebury performance)
That our players have not taken the next step when we have been cruelled by injury has been our downfall.

It was only a few weeks ago people were saying how well the youth had stepped - now all is lost.
Such a fickle lot.

 

[Buckley is my hero]

Think it’s time to replace hine and list team and start again

Too many fails
Where are the key position players ???

Every time Hine selects somebody his response is that they fit into our program. So basically he doesn’t select the best players or players on a needs basis (tall forwards), but rather ones that adapt into our program. Little wonder we haven’t recruited well. Having said that I like the batch of recruits from last year. TJ is a very good prospect, while I like who we picked up in the mid season draft, particularly Smit. 22 is looking more and more like a disaster. If Allan is to make it we need to play him as a leading forward, not as a mid, or playing him on the wing.

 

[Gaspard]

Our current situation doesn't shock me, I have been surprised by the delay in reaching this point. After the bad start, the team made an unexpected recovery based really on their self belief. The steady toll of injuries have eroded the belief, and now the threadbare list is exposed. Players like Long, Sullivan and Richards, who would have been fine as the last players picked in a good team, are not good enough to be the load carriers that they are being asked to be now.

The causes are well known, with no high draft picks for years and short term trading covering problems but mortgaging the future. The future is here. With two of Collingwood's best ever players about to retire, and several very good ones as well, a period at the bottom seems assured. The compromised drafts of Tasmania's entry window will align with this period and make it longer. The late start with this year's first pick gone compounds the pain.

All we can do is suck it up, and replay last year's premiership endlessly until better times come. Savaging our players and coaches is not the way to go. The decisions that got us here are long gone and can't be undone. The cleanout coming is not going to be voluntary. We are losing the top end, not removing dead wood.

 

[odoyle_rules]

Best thing we can do is not win a game for rest of season (which is highly likely right now)… finish as low as possible and really grind in the fact that we always finish pants down in trades.

Hopefully we never trade a future 1st again - unless it’s for someone like Jeremy Cameron

5

Jeremy Cameron

Age

31

Ht

196cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.5

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

5.4

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

2.6

5star

D

10.0

3star

K

7.1

3star

HB

2.9

2star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.0

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.4

4star

G

2.0

5star

Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[No SPIN]

No no you’re wrong mate.

Apparently history means nothing or so I’m told

When I tried to tell everyone Hawthron has had the wood on us for 40 years it was all my imagination

25 wins out of 70 games since 1980 but it’s all my imagination

You must be on a yacht and in a multi million dollar house with a Ferrari in the drive way. Betting against the Pies every time we play the Hawks should have been very lucrative.

 

[No SPIN]

Flys presser full of positive vibes. Personally I want him to go full on MM one day and today was the time to do a Dima and say it like it is none of this pc crap today.

You must have watched a different presser.
He was seething despite his controlled demeanor.

 

[Buckley is my hero]

Our trades look bad if you only look at the bad ones. And exaggerate how bad some were. The Murray trade worked out as a 7 pick downgrade from pick 35 to 42 or something similar and is still regularly bemoaned as a disaster.

There's been some rippers too: Crisp, Howe, Hill, whe, Mitchell, Cameron. There's no flag without our trading.

Cats paid future firsts for Henderson and Caddy. Not exactly winning deals.

They got a great deal for Paddy, but the environment has changed since then. It was the first trade of its kind - a free agent that they traded for. Adelaide had incredible good will towards Paddy and chose to not squeeze them in the trade.

Geelong didn't actually do anything to get Dangerfield. Paddy approached them, and convinced Adelaide to play nice rather than matching and also do a friendly deal.

You’re confusing trades with drafting. Hine is paid to procure us gems from the national draft. That’s where all the best players come from. No disputing with you that clever trading was behind our last two premiership wins. However trades are signed off by the coach and list manager. The head recruiter has minimal impact.

 

[No SPIN]

A premiership list is the product of about 17 years of gambling on the future. In our case it was 19 years. About 10 players are gambled on a year. Generally, 30 of the over 150 gambles contribute to a flag. There's heaps of bad bets placed by all teams.

I don't know how it's possible to have both drafted and traded really badly like I keep reading on here, yet be the reigning premiers and have won 2 flags and played in 4 grand finals in the last 15 years - only missing the finals about 4 times - it doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Agree- Some of us have perspective but sadly a large number here have none. Clearly they want a VFL team full of Top picks and Flags, Finals and contending don’t matter.

 

[Buckley is my hero]

I don’t think it’s right to celebrate Shultz trade at start of the year and then bag the trade now. If you were never a fan of the trade, fine, bag away. But I feel there’s a lot of Derek Hindsight Campaigners on this site.

Many of us in fact didn’t like the Schultz trade at the start of the year. Those extolling it I thought were still on a high after the grand final win.