Autopsy Round 21, 2023: St.Kilda v Carlton

[BrutThough]

Adam Treloar was available at the end of 2020... did we kick the tyres? If we did, was there a reason he would have said no?

That's the kind of get we need if we are serious about a mature, elite mid.

Dunkley last year

We certainly kicked the tyres on Kelly and Shiel. Why didn't they come?

We brought in Crouch instead that year. Similar money without needing to give up a pick.

 

[DougalHoward]

I named four players in my post. Who?

Treloar

Think it was a salary cap issue and since we were already getting crouch

 

[HunterClarksHeadband]

Doesn't help when your key forward can't kick at goal from 20m out - also somehow Higgo's set shot kicking has gotten even worse???
If it's not a snap or on the run I literally have zero confidence.

 

[Ads734]

Trouble is, we lost by a few goals, sadly Wood and Hill's turnovers probably help set up three Carlton goals. Wood did try hard all day though- a pity a few of his mate's gave up the chase too early in the second half.

Wood is playing such hot n cold footy atm saved us about 4 goals and cost us a coupletoo

 

[gringo2011]

Coff was looking like the next big thing before he did his ACL in the pre-season.
Doing your ACL is not going backwards in development.

He had bulked up and looked fit. People assumed he was in for a big year because of physical condition IMO.

 

[Ads734]

He had bulked up and looked fit. People assumed he was in for a big year because of physical condition IMO.

Gringo you’re so harsh on our young guys and look at other clubs with such rose coloured glasses. Seriously growth isn’t linear with young players all the time. Especially when injuries play apart.

 

[Klaatu]

If we look s**t it's hard to attract players in. If you could play at the Dogs or Brisbane why would you want the Saints. I'd stay at Gold Coast if I was Flanders.

Game time out weighs it all, look at Geelong they get Bowers from GC & has looked like there 23rx player on the list gets a game to save face & pushes out Parfitt I know who is take.

If Flanders moves he will come to us knowing he can play m/field get good pay & improve us we maybe 1-4 players from being a really good side.


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[Dard Ball Get]

He had bulked up and looked fit. People assumed he was in for a big year because of physical condition IMO.

No, the eye test said it was clear he was tracking nicely.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yeah but that's my point. If your strategy relies on nailing every pick then it's doomed to fail. On the other hand, if you just take mids with most picks then you've got the best possible chance of getting some good ones.

Reminds me of:
Pick 1 Paddy , full forward sorted, Goddard, Longer. Key back and ruck sorted.
Too easy.

 

[BrutThough]

He had bulked up and looked fit. People assumed he was in for a big year because of physical condition IMO.

He was the standout in every session before he did his knee. Pre season form doesn't always translate to a great season, but it is usually a good indicator and Coffield had given himself every opportunity to have a great season.

 

[gringo2011]

Gringo you’re so harsh on our young guys and look at other clubs with such rose coloured glasses. Seriously growth isn’t linear with young players all the time. Especially when injuries play apart.

They aren't young any more. I hope they come on but they are at the cross roads. Rose coloured glasses are needed to think a guy in his mid 20s is going to suddenly jump out of the blocks. Clark averages 19 disposals and 67 supercoach points this year. People want to drop Phillipou who averages 13 touches as a forward I his first season. Sinclair is the only player that I can remember that has gone from a GOP to star at such a late age.

 

[gringo2011]

No, the eye test said it was clear he was tracking nicely.

Did you see him play? Honestly don't know how he was tracking other than track watchers but he looked fit.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Owens was terrific in the first half. Definitely didn’t look injured. I think he has 10 contested possessions in the half.

Clark only went in for one centre bounce in the 3rd qtr so I’m not sure he even had enough time in the to get slaughtered by the Carlton mids, but even if he did in the very short amount of time, it was probably worth giving him another crack at some stage due to the fact that all our other mids were awful.

I think we thought the old guys could get the job done and they just couldn’t

Thats because Clark had 1 clearance for the game (first half) and didnt look like getting near it! Owens had 8 contested possessions in the first half and ended up with 20 disposals but nearly half of them were in the first 1/4 - 9. So as I suggested it looked like he tired as the game went on. Owens is going to be a very good player but he has been asked to carry a huge load this year, which is ridiculous given its only his second year of footy.

Clark is a long way from being a decent AFL player, let alone the answer to our midfield woes.

 

[Sully111]

How many of his 36 disposals did he "lace the ball out straight to opposition players"?

How many of his "turnovers"occurred when he won possession of the ball and the only target he had to kick to was a 1 on 2 simply because our forwards don't lead?

Like I've said - there was about about 18 other Saints players from Sunday who deserve criticism way ahead of Wood.

People have said he played well but turned the ball over more than usual

I don't see why that's such a big deal.

You can wrap it however you want... you can blame the forwards... some of mason's kicks were sh*t... that's all there was to it really.

Apart from that I agree, he was good.

 

[StCicatriz]

The coaches didnt make the changes just for fun, it was because after half time we were getting slaughtered around the contest. Carlton won first use and their HBF flankers had a field day running off their mids. Clark was getting sliced up playing on Carltons 3rd string mid and giving us nothing on the outside. They moved him back to bring in Sinclair which for the first time in a while Sinc's had no impact.

Our midfield always struggle when there is speed on the game and Carltons intensity and run used them like witches hats. RTB threw the mids around to try and equalise the contest but nothing worked.

Owens has been off the past couple of weeks, probably as previously mentioned he is playing injured. RTB & Misson have priors for playing players who should be out injured and I think it is repeating itself again this year. Even so its not time to burn the house down, we just have to accept that our list is not up to it. At least then the club can do something about it.

I understand some think he is worth keeping but if Hunter Clark attracts interest he should be traded for his and the clubs best interests.

correct we were getting absolutely belted in contested possession and clearance in the 3rd qtr. i dont see ross lyon moving clark out of the center because he's performing and then leaving it like that even when the games slowly slipping from his grip.

the reality is clark wasnt getting more time in the center because he was our worst contributor in there in terms of contested possession and clearance!

 

[StCicatriz]

Adam Treloar was available at the end of 2020... did we kick the tyres? If we did, was there a reason he would have said no?

That's the kind of get we need if we are serious about a mature, elite mid.

Dunkley last year

We certainly kicked the tyres on Kelly and Shiel. Why didn't they come?

i was told the presentation we gave to shiel under gags was embarrasingly bad

 

[SaintsSeptember]

They aren't young any more. I hope they come on but they are at the cross roads. Rose coloured glasses are needed to think a guy in his mid 20s is going to suddenly jump out of the blocks. Clark averages 19 disposals and 67 supercoach points this year. People want to drop Phillipou who averages 13 touches as a forward I his first season. Sinclair is the only player that I can remember that has gone from a GOP to star at such a late age.

Seb Ross maybe not a star, but he was a real slow burn.
After 4 years i was calling to delist him. 5th he was good.

McKenzie was 4 and the rest.

Coff might have been tracking for his 4th season breakout.
Hunter is up to his sixth now admittedly with some hiccups but the clock is ticking.

This is Bytel's 4th season, after having to sit out his first .

This is Byrne's 4th season, and he's looking like a win, not as in he's a star, but we have a good ordinary mid who can play at AFL level. The kind of player all clubs need to have some of.

 

[phantom13]

They aren't young any more. I hope they come on but they are at the cross roads. Rose coloured glasses are needed to think a guy in his mid 20s is going to suddenly jump out of the blocks. Clark averages 19 disposals and 67 supercoach points this year. People want to drop Phillipou who averages 13 touches as a forward I his first season. Sinclair is the only player that I can remember that has gone from a GOP to star at such a late age.

Coffs 23 now, he was 21 when he did his knee coming off a really impressive season and with a solid pre season under his belt.

I actually agree with you holistically about our development and drafting but Coffs an exception to that, he was looking very nice until the knee.

 

[StCicatriz]

I looked at the stats, more importantly I actually watched the game and I’ll repeat what I said Clark Imo wasn’t our problem he was quite good.

you think an inside mid who had 1 clearance and 5 contested possessions was "quite good"?

worth noting his tank might be an issue. he had 67% tog, thats the type of tog we saw from luke dunstan.

 

[StCicatriz]

We have an ordinary list at the end of the day. Three coaches have got to the same point with it. Lethlean set us back about 4 years with another Pelican like effort chasing high cost top-ups that were never going to make a difference.

Without fixtures, injury, away games etc and just on talent alone the lists stack up compared on talent alone as below...

To me our list most closely resembles Adelaide, Richmond, Freo and Essendon. We are getting plenty out of what we have but the talent gulf between us and the top 4 makes it hard to compete with the better lists. Good decision making will sort the risers from the s**t ones.

Carlton have a top 4 worthy list, Brisbane, Melbourne, Port and Collingwood. Geelong is looking a bit less than last year and age has caught up with a few but still capable.

Sydney and the Dogs probably just off them and GWS and GC probably should be in that group- both have bulk talent.

St Kilda, Adelaide, Essendon, Richmond, Fremantle in the next group and Hawks rising into this group with a bullet.

We need to keep adding talent to what we have and no chasing a messiah player from another club any more. Just calculated long range forecasting of what we'll look like in 5 + years. In 2 years we probably have nothing left from Lethlean's top up program and finals looks unlikely in that time. Serong and Acres probably could have played in our next finals side.

couldnt agree more

 

[bird_man]

Owens is going to be a very good player but he has been asked to carry a huge load this year, which is ridiculous given its only his second year of footy.

I don’t think it’s ridiculous at all. He’s a taltented kid that has been given an opportunity to play important roles and develop fast.

It’s not different to Bont playing midfield in his second year. By the time his third year came around he was their best midfielder and a premiership player.

No point hiding these kids if they are good enough.

The other option is to keep rolling around with Steele, Crouch and Ross like we have for the last three years and got nowhere.

 

[Captain Paddy]

Most of those are going back years. We have had major midfield issues for ages but haven't looked to address it recently apart from Crouch and that's still three years ago.

Windhager, Owens, Nas, PHillipou from the last two drafts

 

[StCicatriz]

I don’t think it’s ridiculous at all. He’s a taltented kid that has been given an opportunity to play important roles and develop fast.

It’s not different to Bont playing midfield in his second year. By the time his third year came around he was their best midfielder and a premiership player.

No point hiding these kids if they are good enough.

The other option is to keep rolling around with Steele, Crouch and Ross like we have for the last three years and got nowhere.

it'll be somewhere in the middle. you'd be using the experience players as your base and then running the kids through there and managing their time so as not to burn them out or injure them.

which is exactly what ross has been doing with the likes of owens, pou, clark, windhager, gresham.

he's not out to get these younger players and rob the of midfield minutes he's managing their time and ensuring theyre effective. i thnk ross has been more dynamic in this regard than previous coaches weve had.

 

[beside the seaside]

Windhager, Owens, Nas, PHillipou from the last two drafts

Mate I just said we've drafted well recently but we should have been trading in some established players to help with the load. Which we will most likely do this offseason.

 

[bird_man]

it'll be somewhere in the middle. you'd be using the experience players as your base and then running the kids through there and managing their time so as not to burn them out or injure them.

which is exactly what ross has been doing with the likes of owens, pou, clark, windhager, gresham.

he's not out to get these younger players and rob the of midfield minutes he's managing their time and ensuring theyre effective. i thnk ross has been more dynamic in this regard than previous coaches weve had.

He is now, it took him until just a few weeks back to actually give Owens any time in the middle outside of the ruck.

Some of this had to do with us needing him forward no doubt but even with King back his midfield time was minimal.

Ross and Jones getting injuries may be the best thing for Owens midfield development this year. Gresham is 25 and has played midfield for 3 years so doesn't really belong in that category.