Autopsy Round 7, 2022: St.Kilda v Port Adelaide

[pebblesofsand]

So you dont think that the way he holds the ball has any impact on the way he drops the ball and contacts with his foot...

You ever kicked a footy?

Yeah lots of times - that's why I know that how a player drops the ball is way way way way more important than what he is doing in the lead up to the ball drop.

Go and pick up a footy - close your eyes and spin it around a few times.

I'm pretty certain you'll know exactly where the ball is sitting in your hands.

 

[phantom13]

Yeah lots of times - that's why I know that how a player drops the ball is way way way way more important than what he is doing in the lead up to the ball drop.

Go and pick up a footy - close your eyes and spin it around a few times.

I'm pretty certain you'll know exactly where the ball is sitting in your hands.

Righto

 

[gringo2011]

I'm not sure its any more relevant than Matthew Lloyd pulling up his socks.

Or his grass chucking under a roof at Marvel.

 

[StFly]

Or his grass chucking under a roof at Marvel.

Checking the haze when he threw it up, "yep, I'm woozy, someone give me the gatorade shower".

 

[gringo2011]

Matty Lloyd kick alot more goals than behinds so his routine (quirky as it may have been) worked. Max, at the moment at least, isnt.

Plus Matts socks and grass stuff was all pre his actual motion. Max' ball spinning is in his approach.

AGAIN (and im sure people are sick of it) if hes putting them through he could be juggling his mouthguard in one hand on his approach for all we care but when youre not its probably worth reviewing what you do to work out if you can do it better. The ball spinning is just such an obviously unnecessary thing to be doing he should do away with it for a bit to see if it helps, its unlikely that hes going to kick substantially worse with getting rid of it.

It looked like it turned around late last year. He seemed super accurate. This year it's a mixed bag.

 

[Jade Buddha]

Your whole conversation was probably around ball twirling.

Believe it or not there are plenty of other posters on here and if you read through the thread you will see plenty of discussion around Max King, including posts suggesting he could play at Sandy, posts around Matthew Lloyd etc

My post was pointing out how much he has improved his goal kicking over almost a seasons worth of games


Actually no, I did not ignore the last 2 games in my stats.

My stats were from round 11 last year and included the last two weeks. I never once said they weren't included.

So a huge improvement from mid way through last year to now. That's almost the second half his career and almost a full season of kicking at 62%

If I'd have taken those games I'm guessing it would be up around 70% bit I didn't

I think that's a significant enough time to suggest he's improved in that area

I agree he has improved. People forget how badly he was struggling with his set shot early on.
That improved out of sight but it’s inconsistent.

 

[gringo2011]

Excellent summation.

Yeah, I was taught to always kick with the laces pointing towards the goal, head over the ball and was pretty solid set shot kicker. I used to use the spot behind the goal and imagine I was kicking it to a mate standing in that spot like it was kick to kick. It takes the pressure out and it might be OCD but the same thing every time takes chance out.

I used to help out coaching the juniors when my son played and I used to take the shit kicks aside and nearly always they had one bad habit that was easily fixed. though because bad habits creep back in

Max looks like bad technique when slowed down.

 

[gringo2011]

So from a lighter perspective, AI with sentience unimaginable and there still will be as many melts on Big Footy and at the game as there ever was regarding umpiring!
Fortunately my subjective appreciation is highly attuned to bias....one eyed in fact.

Will any of it help the SAINTS...??? Might have never reported LONG and RYDER....I imagine the empirical data that AI will be able to crunch on that in a matter of seconds would shut the gate. Just the physics alone! Maybe! Not to mention just feeling it was wrong!

Did you see the guy that gave his microwave AI and it wanted to kill him? I saw him on TV but I found a clip that I haven't watched but same story.
Pretty funny.

 

[plugger66]

Im not suggesting Lloyd should do it but wasnt Lloyd his head coach at Haileybury? So its not as if he would have spent a great deal of time JUST focused on Max goal kicking.

From memory (and im happy to be corrected here) Max WANTED to do some private stuff with Matthew Lloyd (given he is a trusted confidant of Max and a pretty handy goal kicker himself) it did seem pretty short sighted of the club not to allow that. If nothing else its showing Max that we trust him to do his own work away from the club and we support his continuous improvement.

His kicking had been fine until the last 2 weeks. The problem was he wasn’t a great kick out of school and Lloyd was his coach and he was their best player. I reckon as it’s only school footy the main coach would do heaps of work on their best player especially as he was full forward and Lloyd would have seen his faults and didn’t fix them. He has improved heaps in the last year.

 

[Ads734]

In his last two weeks hes 3 goals 9 points.

We can all cherry pick stats.

Hes 79.69 for his career which isnt horrible but he could clearly be better plus he misses ALOT of easy ones and misses them badly.

Ultimately i dont think anyone is saying hes completely rooted but most of us (including alot of people with some very good experience in the matter) think the spinning the ball is just a pointless addition that serves no purpose other than to add another element that could go wrong.

It probably gives him some kind of ‘comfort’ as he’s lining up. No issue with me.

Issue is confidence, too close to man on the mark and rushing. His actual kick goes relatively straight. Ie not a whole lot of deviation when it’s straight. The problem is the above two and when he stuffs those up.

 

[phantom13]

My “stop the ball twirling” mates have completely abandoned me here.

Whatever I still ****ing hate it

 

[gringo2011]

My “stop the ball twirling” mates have completely abandoned me here.

Whatever I still ******* hate it

My new theory is, do what ever you like as long as you don't **** it up. I think it was Ross Lyon that said that there was no stupid shots on goal ....as long as you don't miss.

 

[phantom13]

My new theory is, do what ever you like as long as you don't fu** it up. I think it was Ross Lyon that said that there was no stupid shots on goal ....as long as you don't miss.

Damian Lillard famously went iso on Paul George in a playoff game a few years back and made an absolutely ridiculous three in his face from way behind the three point line.

George said afterwards that it was a bad shot (choice) but if it goes in...

 

[St Kilda Death]

Damian Lillard famously went iso on Paul George in a playoff game a few years back and made an absolutely ridiculous three in his face from way behind the three point line.

George said afterwards that it was a bad shot (choice) but if it goes in...

There are NO bad shot choices for Dame.
Logo, anything goes.

 

[MordySaint]

The spinning the ball ritual looks like a takeaway from basketball players and freethrows, seen a million variations in the NBA from touching their face, moving the ball around the body several times and flicking the ball around and some other real weird ones. The difference is the ball is round! The ball ends up in the same way in the hand, also they don't have to drop it to shoot. Drop a round ball and it falls in the same orientation. But I think some coaches in the past have used this ritual methodologies and applied them here.

Can't say any of that for football, it's oval and if it drops in a different orientation, you are cooked, it shouldn't be a variable left to the final second of the routine. Even if it's only responsible for 25% of his misses, that is the difference between winning and losing.

That is my 2c, I'm not sure why you would leave the juggle in. I had a plumber in the fix some noisy valve issues in the house last month, he said we can't diagnose instantly which to replace but let's start with the obvious and easy ones to get to and work from there until it stops. Aka Something is wrong, let's do the simple things first

The ball twirling thing is used to take the tension out of the hands.

The ball drop is probably the most important aspect of kicking for goal and the twirling is a method to make sure you don't build up too much tension before you drop it.

Does it work, who knows but it is a method to try to improve their kicking.

 

[gringo2011]

The ball twirling thing is used to take the tension out of the hands.

The ball drop is probably the most important aspect of kicking for goal and the twirling is a method to make sure you don't build up too much tension before you drop it.

Does it work, who knows but it is a method to try to improve their kicking.

There is this OCD thing where the laces should be pointing through the middle of the goals to me. It might make a fraction of difference to the weight but lacing and the needle valve make some difference to the dynamics in my mind. I have to have the laces lined up and that would be my concern.

I heard the last bit of Doc Wheildon interview on SEN. I didn't get to hear the interview but it should be on their podcast or replay section. It seemed to be about goal kicking technique from what I could gather. He was naming the good set shot converters.

 

[The Punter]

There is this OCD thing where the laces should be pointing through the middle of the goals to me. It might make a fraction of difference to the weight but lacing and the needle valve make some difference to the dynamics in my mind. I have to have the laces lined up and that would be my concern.

I heard the last bit of Doc Wheildon interview on SEN. I didn't get to hear the interview but it should be on their podcast or replay section. It seemed to be about goal kicking technique from what I could gather. He was naming the good set shot converters.

I'm amazed Doc is still alive.

 

[gringo2011]

I'm amazed Doc is still alive.

Actually looks like David Wheadon who wrote the Art of Goal Kicking. I must have misheard the name.

 

[phantom13]

The Dard Ball Get video summarises it perfectly.

Playing with the footy on the approach just means you have to make final adjustments to the grip right as your about to go into the ball drop, in that exact video when he goes into the drop action his grip is all over the shop and sure enough the ball goes straight to where the seam is pointing.

Ultimately for me if King was a reliable and high converting set shot (especially for easy shots) then do as you like (Fev and Nathan Brown

22

Nathan Brown

Age

35

Ht

196cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.8

2star

K

3.9

2star

HB

4.9

4star

M

2.7

3star

T

1.8

4star

No current season stats available

D

6.4

2star

K

3.2

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.8

5star

had weird grips but they were great converters). If youre not reliable and there is a clear flaw in your technique you should eliminate the flaw and see if it improves.

Ive said it a heap of times but the possible mental benefit aside (which none of us even sure is the reason he does it) what does the flipping the ball around in his hands achieve that helps him versus what would doing the Ben Brown

50

Ben Brown

Age

31

Ht

200cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.7

3star

K

7.7

3star

HB

3.0

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.2

3star

G

2.2

5star

D

7.9

2star

K

6.3

3star

HB

1.6

1star

M

3.7

4star

T

0.9

2star

G

1.0

4star

D

8.0

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.4

4star

G

1.2

4star

line the seam up and not move the ball again achieve?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

There is this OCD thing where the laces should be pointing through the middle of the goals to me. It might make a fraction of difference to the weight but lacing and the needle valve make some difference to the dynamics in my mind. I have to have the laces lined up and that would be my concern.

I heard the last bit of Doc Wheildon interview on SEN. I didn't get to hear the interview but it should be on their podcast or replay section. It seemed to be about goal kicking technique from what I could gather. He was naming the good set shot converters.

My Ex wife used to refuse to consider the Hyundai Veloster car, because she just couldn't get her head around having 2 doors on 1 side, and 1 on the other.
She was convinced it would be unsteady on the road.

If i kick a footy i automatically hold it lace out, it just feels wrong otherwise, but subjectively i can't really believe that the weight or aerodynamics would make much difference in the trajectory.
Round footy, round foot. Its got to be the main thing.

Looking at the footage of King , he does hold the ball at a strange angle ,and i don't think its because he twirled it. He had ample opportunity to move it to any position he wanted. I CAN believe that angle could affect his drop and the contact with his foot.

Its surprising no-one is developing boots/shoes with specially shaped tops on them. Like oversize golf clubs lol.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The Dard Ball Get video summarises it perfectly.

Playing with the footy on the approach just means you have to make final adjustments to the grip right as your about to go into the ball drop, in that exact video when he goes into the drop action his grip is all over the shop and sure enough the ball goes straight to where the seam is pointing.

Ultimately for me if King was a reliable and high converting set shot (especially for easy shots) then do as you like (Fev and Nathan Brown had weird grips but they were great converters). If youre not reliable and there is a clear flaw in your technique you should eliminate the flaw and see if it improves.

Ive said it a heap of times but the possible mental benefit aside (which none of us even sure is the reason he does it) what does the flipping the ball around in his hands achieve that helps him versus what would doing the Ben Brown line the seam up and not move the ball again achieve?

I believe that you are focusing on the wrong flaw.

 

[phantom13]

I believe that you are focusing on the wrong flaw.

If hes got more than one he probably needs to fix a few things but go on, whats the flaw he should focus on?

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

If hes got more than one he probably needs to fix a few things but go on, whats the flaw he should focus on?

Missing

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If hes got more than one he probably needs to fix a few things but go on, whats the flaw he should focus on?

What he does with it after he twirls it.

 

[phantom13]

Yeh thats not the thing you fix. Thats the result of fixing the thing that isnt working.