Ryan Griffen - stay or go?

[lachy]

It's not a source, it's a hypothesis that I've come up with
It's so ridiculous and nobody will agree with me, but it actually makes sense given the events that have occurred over the last few days.

As already posted in this thread I prefer to remember Griff for what he contributed to the club, not the way this season has ended.

In saying this for both Griff and the club there is no possible way he can remain at the club. A deal will/should be done or issues will remain.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Well what is it??

It's so ridiculous and nobody will agree with me, but what the hell.
I've tried to piece together information, generally, the events leading up to the trade. It was an empty/half empty threat of a trade. Yes he would be willing to go through with it, but his actions more reflected his frustration in terms of the coach and the management of the club, as opposed to any real desire to want to play for GWS or leave the club.

• He never wanted to be captain, and he was pushed into that role
• He would be offered less money at GWS than his current contract, realistically why would he request a trade?
• He would full and well have the knowledge that if he were traded, that the Bulldogs would get a good deal out of it (two early first rounders, a first rounder and players etc)
• I don't think the fans realise how much faith the players had lost into the coaching style of McCartney. Games like the Brisbane and GWS losses would make any player think "why am I playing for this coach when we played a much better game (more disposals, better efficiency, inside 50's) but the mish-mash of tactics led to us being less clinical when we could have been, reflecting McCartney's poor coaching ability
• Griffen knew that we couldn't afford to pay out McCartney
• Griffen also knew that once he walked out/requested a trade, that would have a much more significant impact on McCartney's tenure than, say, Jones and Tutt walking out. Notice how the views of Stringer and the like changed when they interviewed him after he requested a trade?
• The club still has the view that he's a required player for 2015.
• All in all, his trade request was more out of frustration for playing for that coach and playing under that management rather than any real desire to leave the club or to play for GWS.

Look, I'm not saying that he doesn't want to leave, or is making a totally empty threat, or wouldn't be willing to play, or that the club won't still trade him. For what it's worth for me personally I'm not so much against trading him given the picks that we can get. But I think you need to look at the bigger picture surrounding what his experiences in the club would have been like this year, instead of just simplistically looking at it as "he quit the club herp a derp".

Also, I said unequivocally for dramatic effect, that's not really the case. I'm just stating a reasonable hypothesis that many supporters are overlooking by not looking at the bigger picture and the larger events across himself and the whole club.

 

[TBOW]

It's not a source, it's a hypothesis that I've come up with
It's so ridiculous and nobody will agree with me, but it actually makes sense given the events that have occurred over the last few days.

I can see a case for it. It will crush a lot of our younger members to not see Griff running around next year.
Could cause some real long-term damage.

Just think too many bridges have been burned for him to remain.

 

[fargy]

Can't change the fact he lied to the club and then didn't have the balls to tell them to their face. He lied to Chris Grant, if any player at the club lies to Chris Grant they can **** off as far as I'm concerned. If it was his aim to get rid of McCartney he has succeeded but who wants someone like that at their club?
Had the chance to be a legend of the club, now he will be remembered as one of the most disliked to ever wear the jumper.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Can't change the fact he lied to the club and then didn't have the balls to tell them to their face. He lied to Chris Grant, if any player at the club lies to Chris Grant they can **** off as far as I'm concerned. If it was his aim to get rid of McCartney he has succeeded but who wants someone like that at their club?
Had the chance to be a legend of the club, now he will be remembered as one of the most disliked to ever wear the jumper.

What proof do we have that he lied to Chris Grant? Hearsay? Gordon protecting his own actions in backing Macca last week?
We haven't heard Griffen's side of the story yet.
And he's not allowed to change his mind?
In fact, it's entirely logical that he's finally be able to unwind, go on holiday, sit down and away from pressure, talk to people outside the club, and after all that, it gives him the realisation that "hold on, my actions as the club captain and our best player, can actually impact the coach who I don't like playing under". He can't change his mind?

 

[Igloo]

Anyone who doesn't think Griffen is an absolute gun, regardless of his current status as the devil incarnate, is either lying to themselves to make them feel better, which is understandable, or hasn't been paying attention for many years.

Regarding the 3np hypothesis, can't see it happening. At all. Even purely on a personality basis, I can't imagine Griff requesting a trade then backing out of it. The backlash on him from the clubs own fans would be too great. He wont want that. I'd say there's more chance of him retiring than playing at the Dogs next year.
His management have said that even with the coaching decision, it hasn't changed his mind. Even if the club want him to stay (which I don't think they will), he doesn't. We're not going to keep a player who doesn't want to be there, especially if we can cash in big on him.

 

[ThirdLegUp]

It's so ridiculous and nobody will agree with me, but what the hell.
I've tried to piece together information, generally, the events leading up to the trade. It was an empty/half empty threat of a trade. Yes he would be willing to go through with it, but his actions more reflected his frustration in terms of the coach and the management of the club, as opposed to any real desire to want to play for GWS or leave the club.

• He never wanted to be captain, and he was pushed into that role
• He would be offered less money at GWS than his current contract, realistically why would he request a trade?
• He would full and well have the knowledge that if he were traded, that the Bulldogs would get a good deal out of it (two early first rounders, a first rounder and players etc)
• I don't think the fans realise how much faith the players had lost into the coaching style of McCartney. Games like the Brisbane and GWS losses would make any player think "why am I playing for this coach when we played a much better game (more disposals, better efficiency, inside 50's) but the mish-mash of tactics led to us being less clinical when we could have been, reflecting McCartney's poor coaching ability
• Griffen knew that we couldn't afford to pay out McCartney
• Griffen also knew that once he walked out/requested a trade, that would have a much more significant impact on McCartney's tenure than, say, Jones and Tutt walking out. Notice how the views of Stringer and the like changed when they interviewed him after he requested a trade?
• The club still has the view that he's a required player for 2015.
• All in all, his trade request was more out of frustration for playing for that coach and playing under that management rather than any real desire to leave the club or to play for GWS.

Look, I'm not saying that he doesn't want to leave, or is making a totally empty threat, or wouldn't be willing to play, or that the club won't still trade him. For what it's worth for me personally I'm not so much against trading him given the picks that we can get. But I think you need to look at the bigger picture surrounding what his experiences in the club would have been like this year, instead of just simplistically looking at it as "he quit the club herp a derp".

Also, I said unequivocally for dramatic effect, that's not really the case. I'm just stating a reasonable hypothesis that many supporters are overlooking by not looking at the bigger picture and the larger events across himself and the whole club.

http://www.getoffdrugs.com.au

You're welcome

 

[wian]

Even if the club want him to stay (which I don't think they will), he doesn't. We're not going to keep a player who doesn't want to be there, especially if we can cash in big on him.

Just heard on Sen - right now..... Griffen will NOT waiver and is set on GWS..... Other melbourne clubs and adelaide clubs rang around thursday and friday chasing him after his bombshell. He is still set on GWS and wont waiver at all.........

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Anyone who doesn't think Griffen is an absolute gun, regardless of his current status as the devil incarnate, is either lying to themselves to make them feel better, which is understandable, or hasn't been paying attention for many years.

Regarding the 3np hypothesis, can't see it happening. At all. Even purely on a personality basis, I can't imagine Griff requesting a trade then backing out of it. The backlash on him from the clubs own fans would be too great. He wont want that. I'd say there's more chance of him retiring than playing at the Dogs next year.
His management have said that even with the coaching decision, it hasn't changed his mind. Even if the club want him to stay (which I don't think they will), he doesn't. We're not going to keep a player who doesn't want to be there, especially if we can cash in big on him.

I'm not denying he wasn't fully prepared to pack his bags to GWS, whether that be because nothing changed in the coaching or management side, or whether the Dogs would trade him anyway purely for a list management perspective (which is still possible). So he hasn't backed up on it all. And for him still requesting a trade, he doesn't want to give the impression he was walking out because of the coach. And as the club still has the official stance of him being a required player, he can tell the club behind closed doors to reject all offers, unless they become so ridiculously good to refuse (like three first rounders.

http://www.getoffdrugs.com.au

You're welcome

I did warn you how ridiculous it was. As as you probably know in many of my off-season rants, my mind works in ridiculous ways.

 

[fargy]

What proof do we have that he lied to Chris Grant? Hearsay? Gordon protecting his own actions in backing Macca last week?
We haven't heard Griffen's side of the story yet.
And he's not allowed to change his mind?
In fact, it's entirely logical that he's finally be able to unwind, go on holiday, sit down and away from pressure, talk to people outside the club, and after all that, it gives him the realisation that "hold on, my actions as the club captain and our best player, can actually impact the coach who I don't like playing under". He can't change his mind?

Sure he can change his mind. I'm not going to get in a thing with you because it's pointless. You don't believe he said to Gordon & Grant what Gordon said he did? So you are saying Gordon is a liar? Let's say he changed his mind (although it's a majority thinking he has been in talks with GWS for months), why wouldn't he go to the club and tell them? Instead he thought I'll create a huge shitstorm and try and get McCartney under pressure by getting his manager to issue a release. And for me no matter what we find out from here on he has done way too much damage to remain at the club.

 

[ThirdLegUp]

I did warn you how ridiculous it was. As as you probably know in many of my off-season rants, my mind works in ridiculous ways.

It isn't as crazy as another one i read which essential went.

When luke darcy put it out there at mid year, he was put up to it by the club to see what people said. when the reaction wasn't that bad the bulldogs approached Griffen and said, mate we need to trade you, but we can't your the captain, and taking the captaincy off you and then getting rid of you doesn't make it any better. So we have a plan, if you say you don't like the coach, there are problems, then walk out, right in the middle of trade week, we can force resign the coach instead of paying him out and trade you, and because it is in the middle of trade week, no one will really notice and it will all just blow over. You make a lot of money and we get our draft picks. So griffen is a hero of the western bulldogs football club...

I sent that poster a link to the Euthanasia site. Slightly harder to cure then a drug addiction, so you're gold

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Sure he can change his mind. I'm not going to get in a thing with you because it's pointless. You don't believe he said to Gordon & Grant what Gordon said he did? So you are saying Gordon is a liar? Let's say he changed his mind (although it's a majority thinking he has been in talks with GWS for months), why wouldn't he go to the club and tell them? Instead he thought I'll create a huge shitstorm and try and get McCartney under pressure by getting his manager to issue a release. And for me no matter what we find out from here on he has done way too much damage to remain at the club.

No, I'm not saying Gordon is a liar. I'm just saying it's human nature - let alone the nature of one of Australia's most successful lawyers - to paint the events that he's responsible in the best light.

And it wasn't just "putting pressure on". His decision led to McCartney resigning. Directly. Griffen's not a dumb bloke, he would have very well known handing in his trade request that is the effect that it would have had.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

It isn't as crazy as another one i read which essential went.

When luke darcy put it out there at mid year, he was put up to it by the club to see what people said. when the reaction wasn't that bad the bulldogs approached Griffen and said, mate we need to trade you, but we can't your the captain, and taking the captaincy off you and then getting rid of you doesn't make it any better. So we have a plan, if you say you don't like the coach, there are problems, then walk out, right in the middle of trade week, we can force resign the coach instead of paying him out and trade you, and because it is in the middle of trade week, no one will really notice and it will all just blow over. You make a lot of money and we get our draft picks. So griffen is a hero of the western bulldogs football club...

I sent that poster a link to the Euthanasia site. Slightly harder to cure then a drug addiction, so you're gold

Yeah, I don't think I'm going down the "hero of the Western Bulldogs" path. He did want to leave the club and play for GWS. I'm trying to say is that people are overlooking the fact that Griffen knew that his decision could impact the coaching and management structures of the club and that weighed into his decision.

 

[the dog's kennel]

How can we all abuse Griffen until we hear his side of the story

He at least deserves that much doesn't he?

Seriously guys a week ago he was going to be part of the reason we were going to get better next year coz he will have a far better year after a full pre season

Now he is an injured dud who is only an outside player and footy is past him

It's unbelievable how we turn without getting the full story and are we totally prepared to believe what the club says all the time?

Oh, he gave his side of the story, Matt.... through a few lame pro forma statements from his management, while he slinked around shooting pigs. That really says it all.

Look, I don't hate Griff. I have lost a fair bit of respect for him. But I don't think he is malignant. In fact I suspect he is probably a good bloke - I just think he is also weak as piss, and probably not the sharpest tool in the shed.

He clearly never enjoyed being captain and felt pressured into it (Again, i think this is was a terrible judgement call from Macca. Yes, everyone wanted him to be captain. But Macca KNEW the guy. He had access to psychological testing on the guy. He had observed him under pressure for 2 years. He should have been able to tell that the crown wouldn't sit easily on his head.) And I suspect that he wasn't smart enough or strong enough to deal with that in a mature way. Add to that all the ructions throughout the year (whatever rumours are true, plenty of shit undoubtedly went down at The Kennel this year). So you can see why he would just run away. And why when confronted he'd just say "yes, yes, yes" a lot and then run away even faster. Everyone knows that kind of person. They aren't evil. They just should NEVER be given any responsibility.

Yes, it was disloyal for him to talk to GWS as Captain. (and by the way I didn't tell BF this, for obvious reasons. But I have a connection or two of my own, and I heard rumours that Griff was negotiating with GWS in July. So he's been talking to them for at least 3 months, probably much longer.) But it's not worthy of hatred. Just disappointment and disrespect.

The reason I am hell-bent on trading him is not because of any of that. It is a) his position in the club is now untenable. Too many resentments. We need a clean start. And b) The club is better off without him from a list management point of view. As some of you may recall, the cynical side of me wanted to trade him last year anyway. And in hindsight I was right - that would have been the perfect value trade.

By the way, those trying to diminish his career and value are massively delusional. He was our best player by a mile. He came 3rd in the B+F with a debilitating back injury. And he was an incredibly flexible heroic player - a carry the team on your back type. There is a reason GWS wants him. I bet next year he absolutely dominates the comp.

But I can't get him out of the club fast enough. Pick 4 + 7 (or whatever we can get) NOW!

 

[ThirdLegUp]

Yeah, I don't think I'm going down the "hero of the Western Bulldogs" path. He did want to leave the club and play for GWS. I'm trying to say is that people are overlooking the fact that Griffen knew that his decision could impact the coaching and management structures of the club and that weighed into his decision.

All well and good, but everything i have heard about him, from those who know him... he isn't a deep thinker or incredably bright. He barely thinks about football in general when he isn't on the field. Very recluse and whimsy.

 

[ErnieSigley]

No not true at all, watch gws games next year and you will see that im right

Very funny again. How can you tell next year, let alone if he is at another club? We are talking about our club in the present or past.

 

[ErnieSigley]

Yes, everyone wanted him to be captain. But Macca KNEW the guy. He had access to psychological testing on the guy. He had observed him under pressure for 2 years.

Are you saying everyone but Macca wanted him captain?
Macca knew bugger all.

 

[wian]

The reason I am hell-bent on trading him is not because of any There is a reason GWS wants him. I bet next year he absolutely dominates the comp.

Except when we play them and hopefully stringer cleans him up !

 

[Bont2Bruce]

everyone should contact western bulldogs via phone or at godogs@westernbulldogs.com.au to make their feelings known that Griffin must be traded....

Yup, did that yesterday.

 

[the dog's kennel]

Are you saying everyone but Macca wanted him captain?
Macca knew bugger all.

No, I'm saying Macca should have known better than the rest of us. He had more than enough tools at his disposal to know Griffen was the wrong choice. And yet he wanted to appoint Griffen captain anyway. I am saying that was a terrible terrible decision from Macca that he should be held accountable for.

 

[Nath09]

No, I'm saying Macca should have known better than the rest of us. He had more than enough tools at his disposal to know Griffen was the wrong choice. And yet he wanted to appoint Griffen captain anyway. I am saying that was a terrible terrible decision from Macca that he should be held accountable for.

You can't foresee the unforeseeable. Sometimes you take risks. Perhaps he had faith in Griffen to rise to the challenge and grow. Ultimately, it was the wrong call but to say that McCartney should have known better is way off.

 

[Dogs 13]

I get the feeling that a lot of people have become overly aroused by the thought of what we can get for Griff and just want him gone irrespective of the truth. No one dared suggest it before all this blew up (I think), but now they're salivating.

And if I hear, "he lied to St Chris" one more time I'll spew up. I love him too, but gee.

A few more things while I'm on a roll.

Peter Gordon should not have kept referring to "Macca" in the press conference or statement, it should have been Brendan.

No more coaching suggestions of Ayres (especially not with those glasses), Sumich (fainter), Bolton (seriously), Ratten, Harvey X 2, West, Royal, Maple, Bubba, ad nauseum.

Doesn't anybody else like the way Voss and David King see footy on Fox, is Vossy so damaged.

Don't rush the coach selection, having said that I don't want to wait.

Nail this draft. Get us a big, born to dominate the forward line forward. Find us replacements for the irreplaceable Moz and Murf.

Make sure our next game against GWS is at Etihad.

No more using the word campaigner (unless its proper use), it's no longer clever, we get it and I'm over it.

Very important, I want a better designed member's cap next year, ours are always ugly. Pies, North, Saints always look better than ours. And stop giving me a scarf every year

Buy your freakin memberships, the real soft ***** aren't "the senior players" they're the people who threaten not to.

Make season 2015 come quicker (damn that late start next year), it's gunna be a brave new world.

Sorry, I know these thoughts belong in lots of different threads, but I can't keep up with all of them at the moment.

 

[the dog's kennel]

You can't foresee the unforeseeable. Sometimes you take risks. Perhaps he had faith in Griffen to rise to the challenge and grow. Ultimately, it was the wrong call but to say that McCartney should have known better is way off.

Sorry nath - the level of responsibility avoidance that Griff has shown is off the charts. I refuse to believe that a good judge of character wouldn't be able to see that he has that in him when they're at close quarters. Like I've said before on this board - I develop talent for a living. I know exactly the kinds of issues that you face when teaching young men the ropes in a high pressure industry. And responsibility avoidance is one of the easiest negative traits to pick.

But hey, we can agree to disagree. That's what forums are for!

 

[Nath09]

Sorry nath - the level of responsibility avoidance that Griff has shown is off the charts. I refuse to believe that a good judge of character wouldn't be able to see that he has that in him when they're at close quarters. Like I've said before on this board - I develop talent for a living. I know exactly the kinds of issues that you face when teaching young men the ropes in a high pressure industry. And responsibility avoidance is one of the easiest negative traits to pick.

But hey, we can agree to disagree. That's what forums are for!

And you've never been wrong about people? People have affairs, live double lives and never get caught. Husbands can turn around and kill wives that they've known intimately for decades. Should their wives have known better? It really just begs the question, how well can you really ever know someone...

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Management 101 here both sides of the story before you pass judgement.

Didn't many BF posters state that the problem was with Macca and the senior players and all the younger players loved him, guess what we now hear Dahl, Roughie and Stringer did not provide an endorsement of Macca's coaching. I'm sure more of the truth will be revealed in coming days.

Well we don't really know that (but yes perhaps Dahl). For all we know Roughie and Stringer (and Moz) did like Macca and wanted him to stay, but they may also have said that there were some/enough that didn't which intensified when Griff walked. Sounded more like this is what the call was made on IMO.