Saints Are Finished in 2011 & Beyond

[Vilipend]

They had a good period in the late 1960's and early 1970's too. Based on that they should have a period of about 5 or 6 years in the top 6 by 2045-2048. Something to look forward to anyway.

 

[Ron The Bear]

he's had to implement a game plan that is consistent with the list's abilities.

Disagree, that's no way to coach. Lyon brought a gameplan to the club and recruited players to suit, and it took a season to get them drilled. The players have lost the will/ability to carry it out.

 

[jonesy86]

I heard Finey poor his heart out on the radio earlier... he said of all the things that have gone wrong over the past 10yrs they all pale into insignificance when compared to taking Luke Ball the pick before Chris Judd.

Then for Luke Ball to move on and win a premiership against them just topped it all off.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Clearly without achieving the ultimate prize, Lyon has demonstrated that he is a well organised, capable coach. My query is that with the style of play that he advocates I wonder whether his shelf life at a club may be shorter than others? He has a very dour game style he coaches too which must over a period of time have some of the playing list screaming out for a bit more freedom in the way they play the game. Whether he is able to transform not just the club but himself will be telling I think.

agree with this.

St Kilda's focus during the Lyon-years has been to restrict the opposition, choke them, stop them from winning (obviously).
Over time their zealous conviction in their gameplan has become somewhat of a noose around their neck imo - they rarely look to take the initiative to *win* games themselves; the gameplan is very reactive.
It just doesn't look like a very enjoyable style of game to play - sure, while they were winning it wouldnt have been hard for Lyon to sell the plan.
Now that the Saints have endured a bit of adversity it seems to have eaten away at their conviction in that gameplan.
Sorry to be another Cats supporter comparing the respective fortunes of the two clubs, but perhaps it is worth remembering that virtually the same team that had failed in 2006 saluted in 2007 due to a change in the style of play the team was asked to play.

 

[bisazc887]

Goddard, Dal Santo, Montagna, Reiwoldt, Milne are worth high draft picks (although some a getting on a bit).

You might get a 2nd rounder for some others if you got lucky the rest 3rd round and later.

Not been greedy but Goddard would be picks 1 and 2, he is still realtively young and if he were playing at collingwood atm he would be regarded as very very clearly the best player in the game.

Milne not much now and hes getting on

Certainly some lowish picks for the other 3

 

[bisazc887]

agree with this.

St Kilda's focus during the Lyon-years has been to restrict the opposition, choke them, stop them from winning (obviously).
Over time their zealous conviction in their gameplan has become somewhat of a noose around their neck imo - they rarely look to take the initiative to *win* games themselves; the gameplan is very reactive.
It just doesn't look like a very enjoyable style of game to play - sure, while they were winning it wouldnt have been hard for Lyon to sell the plan.
Now that the Saints have endured a bit of adversity it seems to have eaten away at their conviction in that gameplan.
Sorry to be another Cats supporter comparing the respective fortunes of the two clubs, but perhaps it is worth remembering that virtually the same team that had failed in 2006 saluted in 2007 due to a change in the style of play the team was asked to play.

There were other problems at geelong in 2006 other than the game plan.

 

[Rik E Boy]

I heard Finey poor his heart out on the radio earlier... he said of all the things that have gone wrong over the past 10yrs they all pale into insignificance when compared to taking Luke Ball the pick before Chris Judd.

Then for Luke Ball to move on and win a premiership against them just topped it all off.

Judd a Saint. That would have to equal at least one flag I reckon. Maybe the one we pinched off them or in 2004 or 2005.

 

[MagpieJoel]

Now we have a great coach.

I seriously do not understand how St Kilda supporters actually think this. The constant ineptitude of Lyons is obvious to everyone but Saints supporters.

 

[Murraj1966]

Judd a Saint. That would have to equal at least one flag I reckon. Maybe the one we pinched off them or in 2004 or 2005.

What exactly did you pinch off us in 2004 or 5?

 

[bisazc887]

I heard Finey poor his heart out on the radio earlier... he said of all the things that have gone wrong over the past 10yrs they all pale into insignificance when compared to taking Luke Ball the pick before Chris Judd.

Then for Luke Ball to move on and win a premiership against them just topped it all off.

Not cause he was with us and now left, and good luck to him I hope he wins another 10 flags, (i dont hate him), but StKilda got closer to winning a flag without luke ball than they did with him; even with him playing in the opposition team...He made no difference to us, but yes Judd now thats a player that makes me excited to watch and cry of losing even though we never had him.

 

[Rik E Boy]

What exactly did you pinch off us in 2004 or 5?

OR

I was referring to 2009 but I reckon that in addition, those two other years having Juddy might have also been the difference.

 

[Reckoner Tiger]

An optimistic view:

They lose 7 of the next 8 games even if they put in half-spirited performances. Its just a shockingly hard run.

They stop playing and possibly axe the cloggers. Peake, Baker, McQualter, one at least of Clarke or Blake the main ones. Ray, Gilbert and Kozi not given games if they don't perform. In their place, they play the youth which is not as bad as everyone thinks, and which just hasn't had a chance.

They finish bottom 6, recruit well, grab one or two great youngsters who they play round 1 in 2012.

They get Lenny back, and pray for top output all over again from their best players despite age: Hayes, Riewoldt, Fisher, Milne, Dal Santo, Montagna, Goddard in 2012.

They have an emphasis on youth however, and look for the likes of Steven, Smith, Archer, Cripps, possibly Winmar to reinvigorate them for the new season. They get better output from these young players than the previous 'soldiers'.

They have one last all-out tilt at success in 2012.

 

[DBAH0]

All well and good to say now ok let's rebuild and try to contend again in 3-4 years or so, however the Saints record at recruiting over the past 5 years doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

IIRC, John Beveridge who built most of the list quite as the Recruiting Manager around 06 or 07, and the club got Peake from Geelong who was working under Stephen Wells at the time to take over.

Now obviously they haven't had many early draft picks since then (not like the days from 2000 to 2005), but these are the players they've taken in the 1st 2 rounds since 2007, when Peake took over.

2007;

9 - Ben McEvoy
42 - Jack Steven (3rd round pick, 2nd rounder was traded)

2008;

13 - Tom Lynch
47 - Rhys Stanley (3rd round pick, 2nd rounder was traded for Farren Ray)

2009;

32 - Nicolas Winmar (1st rounder was traded for Lovett)
60 - Jesse Smith (no longer on list, 3rd rounder was traded for Brett Peake)

Peake's no longer at St. Kilda, he's back at Geelong scouting VFL mature aged players. Not sure who's taken over as Recruiting Manager at St. Kilda nowadays, but it's something they've had to address and it's been an issue for them.

 

[Reckoner Tiger]

An optimistic view:

They lose 7 of the next 8 games even if they put in half-spirited performances. Its just a shockingly hard run.

They stop playing and possibly axe the cloggers. Peake, Baker, McQualter, one at least of Clarke or Blake the main ones. Ray, Gilbert and Kozi not given games if they don't perform. In their place, they play the youth which is not as bad as everyone thinks, and which just hasn't had a chance.

They finish bottom 6, recruit well, grab one or two great youngsters who they play round 1 in 2012.

They get Lenny back, and pray for top output all over again from their best players despite age: Hayes, Riewoldt, Fisher, Milne, Dal Santo, Montagna, Goddard in 2012.

They have an emphasis on youth however, and look for the likes of Steven, Smith, Stanley, Lynch, Archer, Cripps, possibly Winmar to reinvigorate them for the new season. They get better output from these young players than the previous 'soldiers'.

They have one last all-out tilt at success in 2012.

 

[Strahany]

they can trade contracted players (i think), as long as the receiving club is prepared to continue that same contract. BUT who on that list is seen as desirable to GWS to be a fellow premiership player in 2016 - NO ONE.
GWS are not gonna waste their time picking up any 27yo+ types who wont be there amongst their best in 2016. and the saints have no one young enough.

It's not that GWS will necessarily want players, it's that they can be used in a three way trade. One club might be willing to cough up some quality for a ready made player and if there is any issue with a direct trade, GWS can be brought in to it.

Campbell Brown was 27 when picked up by the Gold Coast, Bock the same. Leight Montagna is 28 and Nick Dal Santo is 27. GWS would probably be going for a couple of players in this age bracket to lead their kids next year, much like Gold Coast did.

 

[chestbrah]

Not sure this is the same situation - St.Kilda haven't got enough matches into the younger players. No players under 24 have reached 50 games.

Collingwood were very young for a GF team in 2002-03. To get there, Malthouse played kids and took his lumps through 2000-01. Is St.Kilda prepared to be as radical under Lyon?

Ben Johnson and Didak are the only 2 players from our 2003 GF team that remained. At the end of '03 Swan was a wayward pick 53 that had played 3 games and shown nothing, whilst Maxwell was still a rookie listed player. None of the kids from our '10 team had even been selected.

My point still exists however. We turned to youth after our 2004 season, we got rid of dead wood and worked out who could play. Go back to 2004 and tell any Pies supporter we would win a flag 6 years later without all the names I mentioned and you probably would have got flogged.

 

[Murraj1966]

I seriously do not understand how St Kilda supporters actually think this. The constant ineptitude of Lyons is obvious to everyone but Saints supporters.

How exactly is he inept? He got us to 2 Grand Finals I don't see that as inept. He was a bullshit goal umpiring call and unlucky bounce away from being a back to back Premiership Coach, he's not inept, you're just being a feral for being a ferals sake.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

How exactly is he inept? He got us to 2 Grand Finals I don't see that as inept. He was a bullshit goal umpiring call and unlucky bounce away from being a back to back Premiership Coach, he's not inept, you're just being a feral for being a ferals sake.

No he's not an inept coach. List manager....thats another question. Capable of inspiring leadership....not so sure. Developer of youth - fail at this point in time.

But as a match day tactician he deserves credit, albeit off the back of inheriting a strong list in the first place.

I wouldnt be sacking the coach.

 

[Murraj1966]

In list management he turned what looked like a team on the decline into a team that again was inches away from at least one flag. He's fine, and his draftings been very good. I'm quite happy with the performances of the youth that's played in the Nab Cup and first few games this year.

You base your whole opinion about his list management skills on one incident with a stubborn midfielder who couldn't accept his own limitations.

 

[vesra]

Hmmmm.

 

[jonbe54]

It's amazing how Ball has blossomed since coming to the Pies kicking longer with good penetration/ playing out games/ picking up leg speed. Such a stubbornly talented mid who wouldn't accept others limitations and prove them utterly wrong.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

In list management he turned what looked like a team on the decline into a team that again was inches away from at least one flag. He's fine, and his draftings been very good. I'm quite happy with the performances of the youth that's played in the Nab Cup and first few games this year.

You base your whole opinion about his list management skills on one incident with a stubborn midfielder who couldn't accept his own limitations.

You know I base my whole opinions on far more than Luke Ball.

As for drafting, obviously 2009 and 2010 are too early to call, but in both years there were a large number of list spots NOT given to hopeful 18 year olds. So Lyon is going to need some huge successes to make up for all his failures.

Very few prior to 2009 have come through due to lack off opportunity.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Ben Johnson and Didak are the only 2 players from our 2003 GF team that remained. At the end of '03 Swan was a wayward pick 53 that had played 3 games and shown nothing, whilst Maxwell was still a rookie listed player. None of the kids from our '10 team had even been selected.

My point still exists however. We turned to youth after our 2004 season, we got rid of dead wood and worked out who could play. Go back to 2004 and tell any Pies supporter we would win a flag 6 years later without all the names I mentioned and you probably would have got flogged.

I take your point re the list then and now, but the youth policy of 2004 wasn't as radical as you make out. The big policy shift occurred in 2000, or even the year before when Shaw fielded relatively young teams in his final season.

Average age, h&a games
 
Year  Coll  St.K
----------------
2000 23.04 24.57
2001 23.39 24.15
2002 23.73 24.04
2003 24.09 24.26
2004 23.96 24.35
2005 24.82 25.07
2006 25.35 25.62
2007 24.77 25.59
2008 24.51 25.74
2009 24.46 25.64
2010 24.78 25.99
2011 25.26 26.00

GF teams
Coll 2002 24.32
Coll 2003 23.88

St.K 2009 26.37
St.K 2010 26.96, 26.52

It would require a sea-change for St.Kilda to get to the stage Collingwood was at in 2004.

 

[Strahany]

I take your point re the list then and now, but the youth policy of 2004 wasn't as radical as you make out. The big policy shift occurred in 2000, or even the year before when Shaw fielded relatively young teams in his final season.

Average age, h&a games
 
Year  Coll  St.K
----------------
2000 23.04 24.57
2001 23.39 24.15
2002 23.73 24.04
2003 24.09 24.26
2004 23.96 24.35
2005 24.82 25.07
2006 25.35 25.62
2007 24.77 25.59
2008 24.51 25.74
2009 24.46 25.64
2010 24.78 25.99
2011 25.26 26.00

It would require a sea-change for St.Kilda to get to the stage Collingwood was at in 2004.

I don't mean to insult Collingwood's earlier or current teams, but you didn't have a lot of older players worth keeping. You rightfully got rid of the dud older players, and brought in fresh kids. But the thing with St.Kilda is that we have a lot of oldish players (26+) who are high quality and worth keeping, so our average team age won't need to drop that low over the next couple of years.

I know football is never about one player, but if ever a team was to sacrifice a head start in list development in order to bring one player success, it would be for Hayes. If he does have one more year left in him, I'd like to see us have one more proper tilt at the flag with same gameplan and list tweaking - whether that be with younger kids or some clever trades.

 

[Plugger35]

It's amazing how Ball has blossomed since coming to the Pies kicking longer with good penetration/ playing out games/ picking up leg speed. Such a stubbornly talented mid who wouldn't accept others limitations and prove them utterly wrong.

Looks like the same player to me, still lacks penetration with his kicking and still only plays limited game time due to his lack of speed and ability to cover the ground.

He has benefitted from having a good team around him, not that he didn't have that at St Kilda but maybe Collingwood's game plan or structure suits him better.