Saints Are Finished in 2011 & Beyond

[Darkdayz]

St.Kilda need blokes who will bust their gut week in week out, guys who will leave no stone unturned during the week preparing for the next game, blokes who are leaders and willing to put their body on the line for the team.

They have that, the problem is that with all that heart and soul lies one simple fact. A team can only carry so many of those types of players especially ones that are flawed. Every team has them but the its a fragile balance.

The saint have way too many players on either ends of that extreme. I mean Goddard and co are brilliant disposals but then they have a raft of player who are simply below par. These players play with heart and soul, but honestly they just cant provide a team with either a spark or moment of brilliance to win games and especially finals. And now that they have no confidence the gap just gets wider.

I see where your coming from with players like kosi/rafa, all the talent in the world but simply cant make any use of it. But then there are guys like gilbert/jones/blake who have some talents but have major flaws, who do play out of there skins, most of the time anyway. Lenny going down simply shattered what confidence those players had, and like I said no confidence leads to more mistakes and therefore showing more visible weaknesses.

 

[McCrann]

Geelong had a winning culture in 2003 you say? What? They hadn't won a Flag since 1963!

If by "winning culture" you mean making a few Grand Finals and losing - then hello, we have also been doing that recently. O think we're about 3 wins behind the Brisbane Lions over the course of the 2001-2010 decade. Not bad - do you believe the Brisbane Lions are a team with a "winning culture" and if so - where did it come from? Fitzroy or the Brisbane Bears? Don't see much winning from either of those teams Post World War 2!!

you could, but its a losing argument. what game makers were introduced then ? none of what id call the core group - they were assembled pre 2004 and are fast approaching their use by date. who are stkilda's 19-23yo's that every other club would love to have on their list. not a list clogger, really want them ?



they can trade contracted players (i think), as long as the receiving club is prepared to continue that same contract. BUT who on that list is seen as desirable to GWS to be a fellow premiership player in 2016 - NO ONE.
GWS are not gonna waste their time picking up any 27yo+ types who wont be there amongst their best in 2016. and the saints have no one young enough.



everyone ? a large number yes, maybe even a majority who gave an opinion, but not everyone, and certainly not me. IIRC, i rated geelong 2nd or 3rd, saints 7th. why ? because despite having similiar age issues, one team had a winning culture, has tasted success and still desires it, as this year shows (see hawks 1991). and despite the departures of coach & captain, this multiple premiership winning squad was a team, not a few individual stars holding up an otherwise unimpressive list.

 

[WinmarToLockett]

says the bloke who follows melbourne. what exactly has melbourne done in the last 50 years.

Haven't been alive that long. But in the last 40 years, my club has done just as much as your club, minus of course fielding rapists, failing to win a grand final from three consecutive attempts, having naked images of their captain in homoerotic poses plastered all over the media, and generally provided a limitless amount of laughs for the rest of the football community.

the only highlight your club has in the last 10 years has been accumulating debt and then paying it off.

That's subjective. Personally, one highlight was watching Melbourne eliminate St. Kilda from the 2006 finals series, which lead to the Saints (unfairly) sacking their otherwise successful coach Grant Thomas.

hows watts going?

Coming along nicely, thank you.

Looking at his username, surely lost a bet or something?

Not quite. Good guess though.

 

[Ron The Bear]

PA won the flag in 2004....and 7 years later are at an all time club low.

Nevertheless, they did reach a GF by revamping their over-the-hill list after 2005. Agree though that the current parlous state of Port's list is a legacy of that strategy.

I'm certain Lyon will favour the Port path rather than start from scratch, should he be retained.

 

[doppleganger]

They have that, the problem is that with all that heart and soul lies one simple fact. A team can only carry so many of those types of players especially ones that are flawed. Every team has them but the its a fragile balance.

L.Ball aint a battler, he is playing great football and has for the last 18 months.

He is a leader of men.

He was captain when 22, is now part of the Collingwood leadership group, he is the Vice President of the Player's Association.

The Saints need a bloke like L.Ball right now.

 

[Vilipend]

Geelong had a winning culture in 2003 you say? What? They hadn't won a Flag since 1963!

If by "winning culture" you mean making a few Grand Finals and losing - then hello, we have also been doing that recently. O think we're about 3 wins behind the Brisbane Lions over the course of the 2001-2010 decade. Not bad - do you believe the Brisbane Lions are a team with a "winning culture" and if so - where did it come from? Fitzroy or the Brisbane Bears? Don't see much winning from either of those teams Post World War 2!!

Great captains lead their club to flags. You don't have one so you're not going to win a flag. EOS

 

[McCrann]

Blake and Baker are the first two I'd be sending back to the VFL permanently.

Personally I'd be putting Gilbert up for trade.

Agreed 100%. Gilbert needs out of St Kilda and St Kilda need out from Gilbert. Trade him to GWS for sure - they'll definitely take him - and if they do it smart they could get a 20 something pick for him (with something else in the trade to make it happen)

 

[doppleganger]

Nevertheless, they did reach a GF by revamping their over-the-hill list after 2005. Agree though that the current parlous state of Port's list is a legacy of that strategy.

I'm certain Lyon will favour the Port path rather than start from scratch (should he be retained).

Port's list was good enough to comprehensively win a premiership. St.Kilda's wasn't.

After re-jigging, Port was a good team but were shown to be miles away from a premiership in 07.....and now they are a rabble.

If St.Kilda's list wasn't good enough when peaking, how is a little re-jig going to suddenly improve them??

 

[sante]

Too many players in the team who don't suit AFL footy these days or can't kick.

Baker, Polo, Blake, McQualter, Jones, Clarke, Peake etc.

 

[Mark25Jackson]

Cant seriously tell me that when a guy oozeing integrity that is loved by his team mates is treated like a $2.00 hooker and essentially replaced by Lovett, that that doesnt upset the harmony of the group. Id be amazed if that playing group even enjoy spending time together. And would be staggered if Lyon is even liked by any more than 30% of his list. Club are a rabble on and off the field. Would have thought Saints supporters would see it by now. I guess not. Maybe by years end when they dont make the 8, they will acknowledge the damage the Ball situation (along with Lovett, Kim Duthie, repeated investigations into Milne, dodgy cops, Gilbert, etc ) played on their window. Winning a flag is tough when everything goes your way. When you *** up monumentally off the park, well it's nigh on impossible. Throw in a coach who has a crap game plan, and they may as well not turn up.

 

[WinmarToLockett]

Seriously though...

The saints need a kick in the arse. A new coach, a new gameplan, some new players, whatever. They've been so close for so long without tasting the ultimate success you can't blame them for being defeated.

As someone else has pointed out they dominated in 2009, but couldn't do it in the business end of the year.

Now with their some of their stars gone, their game plan stale, their champions distracted by constant failures (not to mention nude photo scandals), draft picks and trades wasted... and with no kids that look like being the next superstars... who can blame them for giving up.

It's over for the Saints. Bookmark it. Try again next decade.

 

[vjknight]

Looks like the same player to me, still lacks penetration with his kicking and still only plays limited game time due to his lack of speed and ability to cover the ground.

He has benefitted from having a good team around him, not that he didn't have that at St Kilda but maybe Collingwood's game plan or structure suits him better.

luke ball was asked to play that run up & down the ground gameplan which he doesnt have the speed or endurance for. and who does ? - the gimps clogging up the saints best 22. end of story.

I wouldn't be surprised if essendon, Carlton or Geelong catch them unaware and deliver the KO to their ignorant, arrogant and toothless side of the large membership/supporter group.

what a ******** - posters on BF influencing how our club is going to perform - grow up

that is why they wont do a clean out/complete rebuild. theres no point delisting players if the players you are going to replace them with arent as good.

their best bet is to do a partial rebuild ala port adelaide, to see out the period where GC/GWS are getting the best of the best. this means keeping the core there and retiring players like baker and blake. delist the cloggers (ones who arent playing regular senior footy and are not developing).

umm see collingwood current team. very few top draft picks. lots of rookie picks. if you havent got access to top 10 picks, then do some ****ing research and find the gems hidden. or is that too hard. youve survived this long on gifts for tanking for so many years.

as for cloggers - stkildas problem is NOT the guys who play at sandy and get an occasional game. they are not list cloggers. the cloggers are the ****wits you have playing week after week who arent members of your core group. players 7-22 are your cloggers. piss off that bunch of useless turds and THEN give the next batch a chance to prove themselves. those ins from a few weeks ago - kosi, baker, and some other piece of grime - honestly your clubs selection panel have no ****ing idea what is wrong. and you stkilda posters just continue supporting their stupidity.

WAKE UP FFS.

Every Collingwood and Geelong pleb will always have some idiotic opinion about St Kilda.

tell us when your nightmare has ended, then you can have the soapbox.

 

[Darkdayz]

L.Ball aint a battler, he is playing great football and has for the last 18 months.

He is a leader of men.

He was captain when 22, is now part of the Collingwood leadership group, he is the Vice President of the Player's Association.

The Saints need a bloke like L.Ball right now.

I'm not disagreeing with that one bit.
Ball is a champion
But at the saints he in 09 he wasnt. He was a man who couldn't run or kick, he was a defeated man. But again that was poor management by Lyon. I believe he had a vision of the players he needed, and Ball wasnt apart of that. But instead of trying to fix Ball he neglected him, which is what he is doing with the youth down there now. Ross seems to be looking at the maximum output he can get for the "now" and not too worried about anything down the track. Which has come to bite him in the proverbial backside.

FYI i was more referring to what they have now and what they did have. The simply fact is Ball is a Pie now and the saints cant do much about that situation. I was more so going on what they should probably do to address there current issues.

 

[Falchoon]

L.Ball bust his gut, the saints need bloke who will bleed for the jumper.
L.Ball is a perfectionist in his preparation, the saints need blokes like that.
L.Ball is a leader, the saints are crying out for leaders.

L Ball's grand final was shit, his direct opponent who he would push out of the midfield played one of the games of the ages.




Outside of a one in 30 second chance you guys would be calling for his head.

Definitely not the type of player we need or can carry.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Port's list was good enough to comprehensively win a premiership. St.Kilda's wasn't.

After re-jigging, Port was a good team but were shown to be miles away from a premiership in 07.....and now they are a rabble.

If St.Kilda's list wasn't good enough when peaking, how is a little re-jig going to suddenly improve them??

Like others are saying, the weakened draft means an immediate rebuild isn't really viable. A revamp - as opposed to rebuild - may keep St.Kilda competitive (i.e. in finals) for a couple of years before they focus on a new generation.

Either way they're in a pickle with a view to winning a flag. While Lyon wouldn't have given up on 2011 yet, important decisions may have to be made on the fly rather than delaying until the end of the season.

There are also issues of morale to consider. Richmond's infamous 157-point loss to Geelong in 2007 was in part a result of the players' response to the forced retirement of Gaspar during the week. Wallace never really recovered from that.

 

[doppleganger]

L Ball's grand final was shit, his direct opponent who he would push out of the midfield played one of the games of the ages.




Outside of a one in 30 second chance you guys would be calling for his head.

Definitely not the type of player we need or can carry.

You need to have a look at which saints players flopped in BOTH games.

L.Ball was great in the replay.

Montagna, N.Riewoldt, Gram, Ray, Milne.......basically the entire list bar Hayes, Goddard and Gwilt were shizen in both GFs.

Yet come to 2011 and nothing has changed.

 

[doppleganger]

Like others are saying, the weakened draft means an immediate rebuild isn't really viable. A revamp - as opposed to rebuild - may keep St.Kilda competitive (i.e. in finals) for a couple of years before they focus on a new generation.

Either way they're in a pickle with a view to winning a flag. While Lyon wouldn't have given up on 2011 yet, important decisions may have to be made on the fly rather than delaying until the end of the season.

There are also issues of morale to consider. Richmond's infamous 157-point loss to Geelong was in part the players' response to the forced retirement of Gaspar during the week. Wallace never really recovered from that.

Finishing 7th or 8th for a few years simply wont help them.

Look at what Collingwood did.....finished bottom 4 for two consecutive years.....had two bumper drafts 05-06, traded out Tarrant for an extra pick and in a few years were back to being a legit challenger.

Saints need to take their medicine, trade out a gun or two, have a couple of years down the bottom, stock pile a group of a dozen draftees who will come through together and go again.

Treading water will delay, but also prolong the stay at the bottom.

 

[10571z]

I remember sitting there in 2004 after the horrific events of '02-'03 realising our chance was over, all our good players were 26 and over and our kids were a bunch of muppets.

It only took us 3 seasons to get back into the finals, which we have featured in every year since, whilst losing blokes along the way like Buckley, Rocca, Burns, Licuria, Clement, Holland, Wakellin, Woewodin and Tarrant*... not to mention the fact the Fraser, Presti, O'bree, Medhurst and Lockyer whilst still on the list didn't play in our Premiership team.

I mean if you had of told me 6 years ago that I'd be sitting here with a flag in the bank and none of those 14 blokes featured in it I'd say you were kidding yourself.

It's time for the Saints to turn to their youth, find some blokes that can actually kick a footy and get them in the side.

Great post. Insane how well Collingwood did to get back up so quickly. Amazing and shows that it is possible. Maybe you need to get MM after this year saints>

 

[Plugger35]

L.Ball aint a battler, he is playing great football and has for the last 18 months.

He is a leader of men.

He was captain when 22, is now part of the Collingwood leadership group, he is the Vice President of the Player's Association.

The Saints need a bloke like L.Ball right now.

We do have one, his name is Lenny Hayes and he is a much better player than Ball.

We also have Armitage who is playing a similar role to Ball but is younger and with more potential.

Great captains lead their club to flags. You don't have one so you're not going to win a flag. EOS

You had to import your captain from West Coast. Judd was made captain of Carlton before he'd even played a game for the club, what a joke.

Cant seriously tell me that when a guy oozeing integrity that is loved by his team mates is treated like a $2.00 hooker and essentially replaced by Lovett, that that doesnt upset the harmony of the group. Id be amazed if that playing group even enjoy spending time together. And would be staggered if Lyon is even liked by any more than 30% of his list. Club are a rabble on and off the field. Would have thought Saints supporters would see it by now. I guess not. Maybe by years end when they dont make the 8, they will acknowledge the damage the Ball situation (along with Lovett, Kim Duthie, repeated investigations into Milne, dodgy cops, Gilbert, etc ) played on their window. Winning a flag is tough when everything goes your way. When you *** up monumentally off the park, well it's nigh on impossible. Throw in a coach who has a crap game plan, and they may as well not turn up.

Wow, it's pretty amazing that we managed to make 3 Grand Finals then with such a rabble of a club and a terrible coach with a crap game plan.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Saints need to take their medicine, trade out a gun or two, have a couple of years down the bottom, stock pile a group of a dozen draftees who will come through together and go again.

Treading water will delay, but also prolong the stay at the bottom.

Easier said than done. You had a dual-premiership coach who was committed to youth and had quickly revamped the list to reach GF's; Lyon inherited a mature team and has added seasoned players from other clubs. It's unknown whether he has the patience or ability to develop a team from a blank slate.

 

[doppleganger]

We do have one, his name is Lenny Hayes and he is a much better player than Ball.

We also have Armitage who is playing a similar role to Ball but is younger and with more potential.

Lenny is a star......but he will be 32 the next time he pulls on a jumper, combine that with a knee reco and the saints should get used to life after lenny.

Armo is nothing like Ball off-field, he will never be a captain or leader.

Wow, it's pretty amazing that we managed to make 3 Grand Finals then with such a rabble of a club and a terrible coach with a crap game plan.

You dont get it....it is all in the past.

A club gets a limited time at the top, and how they manage to identify/react to signs of decline sum up how quickly they can get back and challenge again.

Ignoring everything and living on GF losses as some kind of creditability will destroy the club for the next decade.

 

[bodazoka]

Finishing 7th or 8th for a few years simply wont help them.

Look at what Collingwood did.....finished bottom 4 for two consecutive years.....had two bumper drafts 05-06, traded out Tarrant for an extra pick and in a few years were back to being a legit challenger.

I agree with this.

They should tread the same path Collingwood did after there grand final losses. I will also say that Collingwood got lucky by also picking up Sidebottom and Beams from a fantastic 2008 draft as well which helped them allot. Im not sure if the strength of there list without those players would be good enough.

Trade 1 or 2 blokes out for picks this year as well as bottoming out for the next 2 years should see a massive influx of new talented kids.

Also, there were only 4-5 Collingwood players in there squad after there grand finals that ended up making the 2010 grand final win. From memory there Dane Swan, Leon Davis, Alan Didak, Ben Johnson and Nick Maxwell and I believe all were under 22

 

[db swannie]

Who is the kicking coach at St Kilda? Seriously, they have at least 3 left footers who cannot kick AT ALL with their right? Dawson, Gilbert and Jones are absolute shite with their right, and have done nothing to correct that over the past few seasons. You cannot play AFL these days and be useless on your non-preferred, because opposition players work them over time and time again for it. Gilbert is next to useless, and I've never thought much of him. He takes too long to kick, is too slow, and is way overrated with his preferred foot anyway. Dawson. Nuff said. Jones has slowed, looks fat and uninterested.

GWS would have rocks in their collective head if they touched either of these three. They're washed up as footballers, and they're not the only ones at St Kilda. Add Blake, Baker should never have played last year, let alone this year, Milne is over the hill, so is Hayes (sadly), as is Schneider, Dempster, Koshitzse...the list just gets longer by the day.

 

[Adz]

I agree with this.

They should tread the same path Collingwood did after there grand final losses. I will also say that Collingwood got lucky by also picking up Sidebottom and Beams from a fantastic 2008 draft as well which helped them allot. Im not sure if the strength of there list without those players would be good enough.

Trade 1 or 2 blokes out for picks this year as well as bottoming out for the next 2 years should see a massive influx of new talented kids.

Also, there were only 4-5 Collingwood players in there squad after there grand finals that ended up making the 2010 grand final win. From memory there Dane Swan, Leon Davis, Alan Didak, Ben Johnson and Nick Maxwell

Only Leon and Ben and Alan.

 

[Defacto]

luke ball was asked to play that run up & down the ground gameplan which he doesnt have the speed or endurance for. and who does ? - the gimps clogging up the saints best 22. end of story.



what a ******** - posters on BF influencing how our club is going to perform - grow up



umm see collingwood current team. very few top draft picks. lots of rookie picks. if you havent got access to top 10 picks, then do some ****ing research and find the gems hidden. or is that too hard. youve survived this long on gifts for tanking for so many years.

as for cloggers - stkildas problem is NOT the guys who play at sandy and get an occasional game. they are not list cloggers. the cloggers are the ****wits you have playing week after week who arent members of your core group. players 7-22 are your cloggers. piss off that bunch of useless turds and THEN give the next batch a chance to prove themselves. those ins from a few weeks ago - kosi, baker, and some other piece of grime - honestly your clubs selection panel have no ****ing idea what is wrong. and you stkilda posters just continue supporting their stupidity.

WAKE UP FFS.



tell us when your nightmare has ended, then you can have the soapbox.

can you list the players 7-22 that are the cloggers?

heres your grand final team and their draft pick numbers and year. you can see that your core group of players are all top 20 picks the rest are support players taken later in the draft. if you look at the dates you will see you got youre core when you had bottomed out. so the idea of us doing a clean out and rebuilding when GWS and GC get the majority of the top 20 picks is just insane. we just wont have the picks. even if we do get the pick were then competing against two teams with the larger salary cap and the extra concessions they get (given were now rebuilding at the same time they are). your comments about tanking the gifts we got is pretty funny, considering you got alot of youre good players in similar circumstances (see the 1999 picks, the 2005 picks, the 2006 picks). you've also been fortunate in the father/son picks you got. football dept spending is another thing but thats another topic:

Leon Davis: Pick 34 - 1999 (you're third pick)
Ben Johnson: Pick 62 - 1999

Alan Didak: Pick 3 - 2000 (you're first pick)

Dane Swan: Pick 58 - 2001

Nick Maxwell: Rookie 2002

Heath Shaw: Father/Son 2003

Travis Cloke: Father/Son 2004

Harry O'Brien: Rookie 2004

Dale Thomas: Pick 2 - 2005 (you're 1st pick)
Scott Pendlebury: Pick 5 - 2005 (you're 2nd pick)

Alan Toovey: Rookie - 2005

Ben Reid: Pick 8 - 2006 (you're 1st pick)
Nathan Brown: Pick 10 - 2006 (you're 2nd pick)
Chris Dawes: Pick 28 - 2006 (you're 3rd pick)
Tyson Goldsack: Pick 65 - 2006 (you're 5th pick)

Sharrod Wellingham: Rookie - 2006
Brent Macaffer: Rookie - 2006

Steele Sidebottom: Pick 11 - 2008 (you're first pick)
Dayne Beams: Pick 29 - 2008 (you're second pick)

Jarryd Blair: Rookie

Leigh Brown : Trade. Originally Pick 5 - 1999
Luke Ball: Trade. Originally Pick 2 - 2001
Darren Jolly: Trade. Originally Rookie. Traded to Sydney for Pick 15.