Coach So you want Voss gone? Who will replace him and why would they want to coach Carlton?

[sparkybagger]

It's interesting looking back to note that the only football people on that selection panel were Williams and Parkin. Neither had coached or played football in the last 20 years.

Makes you wonder how rigorously we would have been able to assess candidates thoughts on gameplan and tactical nous ect.

Agreed. Diesel also has CTE. The impact of this on cognitive function can be significant.

 

[jj1978]

I desperately want Voss to work and I hate to think we need to sack yet another coach. Every week I have a small glimmer of hope that this weekends game that something will change and the players will "click". I expected a strong response and a win against St Kilda, I expected a win against the Doggies and whilst the losses to the Pies and Brisbane were 4 odd goals, it felt like both of them were in cruise control and woud have put us away if we mounted any sort of coherent gameplan (I mean Sidebottom was laughing at us during that game, I was there).

There was a part of me that expected a win against Melbourne. Every week we hear the same rhetoric from Voss, every week we struggle to muster ten goals and have so far had 26 quarters (yes 26) of two goals or less. This is a team with two giant Coleman medallists who can take a contested mark, a bull of a Brownlow winning midfielder surrounded by able allies (Kennedy, Cerra, Walsh, Hewett), multiple All Australians and a supposed gun of a full back with a littering of high draft picks (which we have not developed).

I just cant see it, not anymore. That small glimmer of hope is gone for me, it left at half time last Friday night when I switched off at half time as we had two goals in a half of footy against a pretty substandard Melbourne outfit. It's not all on Voss, I dont rate the assistants and there is a very large portion of blame to lay at the players feet. Their skills are downright atrocious, Voss cant kick it for them though I really do wonder what they do in training, I suspect training is all about gameplan simulations (that don't seem to be sinking in) and none on skill deficiencies.

I don't think Voss can turn this around, none of what he speaks in the media gives me any hope he can and the players body language on the field reflects this. I'd rather we pull the pin and get Pyke onboard and let him choose his own assistants, if it means paying to soft cap tax so be it, Matheson can be useful for once and foot the bill.

Amen

 

[sparkybagger]

Why do people keep bringing up Hardwick? This isn’t a comparable situation. This is more comparable to Mark Neeld or David Noble.

I suspect it's a natural case of positive expectation bias. We'd all love for this to happen, but it's just as likely (possibly more likely) that Voss is closer to Neeld or Noble than Hardwick or C. Scott.

This is why KPI's have some use. It helps to remove speculation out of the equation. Whatever data markers were set for Voss, I'd suggest he's not meeting them at this point. The first of them being making finals if Sayers' previous public statements are anything to go by. We narrowly missed last year, and will likely miss by some margin this year.

 

[AceAndy]

I suspect it's a natural case of positive expectation bias. We'd all love for this to happen, but it's just as likely (possibly more likely) that Voss is closer to Neeld or Noble than Hardwick or C. Scott.

This is why KPI's have some use. It helps to remove speculation out of the equation. Whatever data markers were set for Voss, I'd suggest he's not meeting them at this point. The first of them being making finals if Sayers' previous public statements are anything to go by. We narrowly missed last year, and will likely miss by some margin this year.

Exactly right. How many times do you see on this forum that Geelong kept Thompson on and won multiple premierships therefore we should stick with Bolton / Teague and now Voss.

 

[JustaBattler]

The problem with appointing non-experienced coaches is that they aren't a great drawcard for top-line assistants. I don't rate Hamill or Clarke and have reservations about the ex Doggies bloke - although apparently he is rated around the traps. Voss has one mate from his Brisbane days in Power looking after development.

When you appoint a coach you are paying for his past performances to sell to the sheeple- but you really should be paying for who he brings with him to help. In a well run Club your head of football should also be able to bring in quality staff - Loyd has achieved nothing as far as that goes - he has been able to keep his job though.

IF the Board want to dump Voss - they better have an eye on who the next candidate is and what resources they will bringing with them at the same time as looking at who in AFL land wants to work under Loyd - someone with no experience except sacked coaches at Carlton in his role.

As for all the player discontent rumours today - I don't give a toss - Voss picked NONE of them except the blokes in the first year and he is playing them.

IN Voss's tenure so far he has had to 'carry' perennially injured: Martin/McGovern/Williams 3 trade ins who have just in Voss's tenure delivered nothing in terms of continuity - add ( last year and now again) Pittonet, Cuningham/Marchbank and Hewett/Walsh Kennedy out for the last few games when finals were on the line.

Those who say Voss cant coach, conveniently ignore the fact that he copped a very bad run of injury last year - with crucial players missing this year as well. I can't see a coach who got Carlton playing Top4 football all of a sudden not being able to coach - I can see the effect of injury and rehabilitation being massively underestimated on here- - that as well as the real issue being he is playing with 2 forwards and not 6 every game.

For mine I do not have enough information to decide on whether Vopssy has lost the players or doesn't have a clue - you need to give time and an opportunity to finish at least a list that has starting 22 players that can play AFL football - the best players need the so-called role players in order to perform.

No way does any decent coach want to come to Carlton now - unless they have the past record of success - so that teh Board can sell that to teh Carlton supporters on here - and with that will come a massive pay ask and a long term deal - and with that - talk of a required mini-build.

The mistake was made sacking Bolton instead of bringing in quality support - that was as big mistake compounded by Teague and now people want to go back to teh same ol same ol merrygoround of nuffery.

Ridiculous petulance.

 

[Sqotty from office works]

Why do people keep bringing up Hardwick?

Apparently a bar owner in Bali said he has already seen evidence that dimma has been signed sealed to coach us next year.

 

[Juice030103]

Not if he is there to help Voss and has tactical nous.

Agree with that

Re Wickzki i just don’t think another “2nd chance coach” is the right way to go. But hey, I thought another first time coach was a bad call last time so who knows!

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

The problem with appointing non-experienced coaches is that they aren't a great drawcard for top-line assistants. I don't rate Hamill or Clarke and have reservations about the ex Doggies bloke - although apparently he is rated around the traps. Voss has one mate from his Brisbane days in Power looking after development.

When you appoint a coach you are paying for his past performances to sell to the sheeple- but you really should be paying for who he brings with him to help. In a well run Club your head of football should also be able to bring in quality staff - Loyd has achieved nothing as far as that goes - he has been able to keep his job though.

IF the Board want to dump Voss - they better have an eye on who the next candidate is and what resources they will bringing with them at the same time as looking at who in AFL land wants to work under Loyd - someone with no experience except sacked coaches at Carlton in his role.

As for all the player discontent rumours today - I don't give a toss - Voss picked NONE of them except the blokes in the first year and he is playing them.

IN Voss's tenure so far he has had to 'carry' perennially injured: Martin/McGovern/Williams 3 trade ins who have just in Voss's tenure delivered nothing in terms of continuity - add ( last year and now again) Pittonet, Cuningham/Marchbank and Hewett/Walsh Kennedy out for the last few games when finals were on the line.

Those who say Voss cant coach, conveniently ignore the fact that he copped a very bad run of injury last year - with crucial players missing this year as well. I can't see a coach who got Carlton playing Top4 football all of a sudden not being able to coach - I can see the effect of injury and rehabilitation being massively underestimated on here- - that as well as the real issue being he is playing with 2 forwards and not 6 every game.

For mine I do not have enough information to decide on whether Vopssy has lost the players or doesn't have a clue - you need to give time and an opportunity to finish at least a list that has starting 22 players that can play AFL football - the best players need the so-called role players in order to perform.

No way does any decent coach want to come to Carlton now - unless they have the past record of success - so that teh Board can sell that to teh Carlton supporters on here - and with that will come a massive pay ask and a long term deal - and with that - talk of a required mini-build.

The mistake was made sacking Bolton instead of bringing in quality support - that was as big mistake compounded by Teague and now people want to go back to teh same ol same ol merrygoround of nuffery.

Ridiculous petulance.

Forget last year.

That he has been unable to arrest a horrible form slump over the last 6 weeks or so is the issue...

And that 98% of the player cohort are playing way below even their average output....

 

[jd2010]

Exactly right. How many times do you see on this forum that Geelong kept Thompson on and won multiple premierships therefore we should stick with Bolton / Teague and now Voss.

That fall back notion assumes every single coach that applies for a job is a good or great coach. Most who do go for the top jobs aren't. Voss might not be. Teague wasn't. Bolton wasn't. Malthouse was for a limited time.

 

[Blue1980]

I suspect it's a natural case of positive expectation bias. We'd all love for this to happen, but it's just as likely (possibly more likely) that Voss is closer to Neeld or Noble than Hardwick or C. Scott.

This is why KPI's have some use. It helps to remove speculation out of the equation. Whatever data markers were set for Voss, I'd suggest he's not meeting them at this point. The first of them being making finals if Sayers' previous public statements are anything to go by. We narrowly missed last year, and will likely miss by some margin this year.

We went 12-10 last year, and currently 4.5-7.5 this year, and the way we are tracking we will get max 7.5.

This isn’t Hardwick winning 15, 12 and 15 games with finals appearances in 3 years prior to a down year.

Essendon sacked rutten last year and their world hasn’t ended.

It’s also a myth saying a coach will have to reinvent a whole game plan with a new list, sides in other codes change coaches all the time, without everyone having to rip it up and start again. Chris Scott won a flag in his first year, Ratts recently got saints to finals in his first year, McRae took pies from 17th to a point off a GF in his first year.

 

[JustaBattler]

Forget last year.

That he has been unable to arrest a horrible form slump over the last 6 weeks or so is the issue...

And that 98% of the player cohort are playing way below even their average output....

You keep repeating yourself and failing to to do even the most basic levels of analysis - despite continual reminders.

Where do you come up with these stoopid stats anyway? and what is the context of these measures?

Did you expect Hewett/Walsh/Kennedy to be as good as they were last year- before they underwent back surgeries and foot surgeries and had no pre-seasons? I mean really wtf? WHat world do you think these guys live in - I can assure you that they have done well just to get back on teh park and perform at 80% of last yer's peak form.

What do expect a coach to do when he has only two forwards- make the other 4 into decent forwards by clicking his fingers - - again - wtf?

DO you think Voss is missing handballs/tackles/easy set shots - do you really think VOss is saying ignore loose men presenting all alone and unmarked?

The list in its current form is not only not complete but also doesn't even have access to fit better players ...

Easy for lounge chair experts to sprout nonsense like da game plan sux - when basic execution is ignored as a factor in any game plan...

It is like it is a competition in her for who can scream the most about how bad the game plan is or how bad the coach is..and how great the list is and should be finals..
rinse and repeat...

just sheeptalk from sheeple.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

You keep repeating yourself and failing to to do even the most basic levels of analysis - despite continual reminders.

Where do you come up with these stoopid stats anyway? and what is the context of these measures?

Did you expect Hewett/Walsh/Kennedy to be as good as they were last year- before they underwent back surgeries and foot surgeries and had no pre-seasons? I mean really wtf? WHat world do you think these guys live in - I can assure you that they have done well just to get back on teh park and perform at 80% of last yer's peak form.

What do expect a coach to do when he has only two forwards- make the other 4 into decent forwards by clicking his fingers - - again - wtf?

DO you think Voss is missing handballs/tackles/easy set shots - do you really think VOss is saying ignore loose men presenting all alone and unmarked?

The list in its current form is not only not complete but also doesn't even have access to fit better players ...

Easy for lounge chair experts to sprout nonsense like da game plan sux - when basic execution is ignored as a factor in any game plan...

It is like it is a competition in her for who can scream the most about how bad the game plan is or how bad the coach is..and how great the list is and should be finals..
rinse and repeat...

just sheeptalk from sheeple.

you really want to play this game?

Playing Kennedy off HB? There's stupid.

Not playing Cripps or Kennedy forward at all (noting the dearth of 3rd or 4th talls) - there's stupid.

Not changing the CBB set up - or composition of - despite failing week after week - more stupid.

Battering JSOS in the ruck..... guess what?

Playing Ed most of the year who was really giving us nothing - need I go on....

Of course the execution, basic skills are way off presently.... and why do you reckon that is?

 

[BluStreak]

Why do people keep bringing up Hardwick? This isn’t a comparable situation. This is more comparable to Mark Neeld or David Noble.

Why isnt it? Hardwick was a hopeless new coach for several years, Supporters were crying out for him to be sacked. Members were microwaving cards etc.
But something clicked, was it asst coaches? was it a senior mentor? was it a change in the playing list? I put forth that it was all these things.

 

[Gointocarlton]

You keep repeating yourself and failing to to do even the most basic levels of analysis - despite continual reminders.

Where do you come up with these stoopid stats anyway? and what is the context of these measures?

Did you expect Hewett/Walsh/Kennedy to be as good as they were last year- before they underwent back surgeries and foot surgeries and had no pre-seasons? I mean really wtf? WHat world do you think these guys live in - I can assure you that they have done well just to get back on teh park and perform at 80% of last yer's peak form.

What do expect a coach to do when he has only two forwards- make the other 4 into decent forwards by clicking his fingers - - again - wtf?

DO you think Voss is missing handballs/tackles/easy set shots - do you really think VOss is saying ignore loose men presenting all alone and unmarked?

The list in its current form is not only not complete but also doesn't even have access to fit better players ...

Easy for lounge chair experts to sprout nonsense like da game plan sux - when basic execution is ignored as a factor in any game plan...

It is like it is a competition in her for who can scream the most about how bad the game plan is or how bad the coach is..and how great the list is and should be finals..
rinse and repeat...

just sheeptalk from sheeple.

Spot on. As for "factions", I guess that's grossly exaggerated. You'd hard pressed to find a group of 45 young atheletes (male or female) anywhere in the world that wouldn't have a few in the group that clash or don't get along. That's just normal human factors at play, add a testosterone, alpha male filled environment and this stuff would be prevalent if I had to guess. I'd also imagine that sometimes, confrontation/honesty is healthy for a group to go forward.

 

[JustaBattler]

you really want to play this game?

Playing Kennedy off HB? There's stupid.

Not playing Cripps or Kennedy forward at all (noting the dearth of 3rd or 4th talls) - there's stupid.

Not changing the CBB set up - or composition of - despite failing week after week - more stupid.

Battering JSOS in the ruck..... guess what?

Playing Ed most of the year who was really giving us nothing - need I go on....

Of course the execution, basic skills are way off presently.... and why do you reckon that is?

Is that all you've got - really?


Maybe playing Kennedy off HB was getting an AFL player into a position they could handle so that Docherty could play mid ?
Maybe Jack has to play ruck because THERE WAS NO OTHER OPTION!!!!
MAYBE just MAYBE Ed is a better option than Owies/Durdin/Motlop/Fisher????


is that all you've got in response to substantive information posted repeatedly about hw little room to move Voss has with the list?


dagameplansux vossy bad...

gimme a break

 

[JustaBattler]

Spot on. As for "factions", I guess that's grossly exaggerated. You'd hard pressed to find a group of 45 young atheletes (male or female) anywhere in the world that wouldn't have a few in the group that clash or don't get along. That's just normal human factors at play, add a testosterone, alpha male filled environment and this stuff would be prevalent if I had to guess. I'd also imagine that sometimes, confrontation/honesty is healthy for a group to go forward.

Every professional player wants three things

1. To be paid more than they are worth
2. To be paid more than the player they think they are better than
3. To be played all teh time irrespective of reform to maximise their manager's ability to get a bigger contract next time around

Trouble making players in decent Clubs - get moved on - real fast.

Players can dislike each personally but enjoy the fact that on field the bloke they dont like is a good player.
Players can lovfe another player but dislike playing with them because they know the other bloke is as a poor player.

etc etc etc

 

[jd2010]

Maybe playing Kennedy off HB was getting an AFL player into a position they could handle so that Docherty could play mid ?

Tbf if that's something a coach is holding their hat on for why Kennedy is played out of position. They need to reconsider their profession

Let's move player A who is a solid 7/10 in their spot to player B's spot where he is a 4/10

And we are doing this because player B who is a 9/10 in their spot is a 7/10 in player A's spot.

 

[HarryFlashman]

Every professional player wants three things

1. To be paid more than they are worth
2. To be paid more than the player they think they are better than
3. To be played all teh time irrespective of reform to maximise their manager's ability to get a bigger contract next time around

Trouble making players in decent Clubs - get moved on - real fast.

Players can dislike each personally but enjoy the fact that on field the bloke they dont like is a good player.
Players can lovfe another player but dislike playing with them because they know the other bloke is as a poor player.

etc etc etc

Would have thought success would be on the top of that list. How about-
Ability to play at the top level & show what they can do.

It’s not all about money mate

 

[JustaBattler]

Tbf if that's something a coach is holding their hat on for why Kennedy is played out of position. They need to reconsider their profession

Let's move player A who is a solid 7/10 in their spot to player B's spot where he is a 4/10

And we are doing this because player B who is a 9/10 in their spot is a 7/10 in player A's spot.

DO you really expect every 'experiment' work - every time? Who knows all teh reasons why this or that specific decision was decided on?

This is a lynch mob mentality in here from some - another round of braying nuffery, sans patience , thoughtfulness, sans anything except entitlement and demands...

 

[JustaBattler]

Would have thought success would be on the top of that list. How about-
Ability to play at the top level & show what they can do.

It’s not all about money mate

No it isn't all about money - how easily they can make it is up there as well - and far far behind that is winning a flag or playing finals - as in far far far behind that.

That is why Cubs who overpay for 'stars' never get the value they expect.

That is why Cook has made mention of Carlton's top heavy salary cap.

Serious errors have been m, made before Voss and Cook joined re salaries and duration and player types.

No doubt that Martin/McGovern/Williams have all gamed Carlton- and I have no doubt that 3 current stars at Carlton have as well.

 

[jd2010]

DO you really expect every 'experiment' work - every time? Who knows all teh reasons why this or that specific decision was decided on?

This is a lynch mob mentality in here from some - another round of braying nuffery, sans patience , thoughtfulness, sans anything except entitlement and demands...

There's experiments and there's jumping off a cliff.

Even a coach in tank mode would question if they could get away with doing something as stupid as Kennedy at HBF when we have 2 all Australian squad HBFs fully fit.

Kennedy is one of few players I rate and have been happy with this year. But if he is a HBF then Carrol is a ruckman in the making

 

[HarryFlashman]

No it isn't all about money - how easily they can make it is up there as well - and far far behind that is winning a flag or playing finals - as in far far far behind that.

That is why Cubs who overpay for 'stars' never get the value they expect.

That is why Cook has made mention of Carlton's top heavy salary cap.

Serious errors have been m, made before Voss and Cook joined re salaries and duration and player types.

No doubt that Martin/McGovern/Williams have all gamed Carlton- and I have no doubt that 3 current stars at Carlton have as well.

You’re convoluting your story.

I don’t disagree that some players “game the system” the 3 u listed have done so very effectively- that said we were stupid enough to allow it! Plenty of things we could put in place not to let that happen.

Money isn’t the driving factor, but it definitely becomes a factor.

 

[jpfalvo]

Exactly right. How many times do you see on this forum that Geelong kept Thompson on and won multiple premierships therefore we should stick with Bolton / Teague and now Voss.

Mind boggles how many roll-out the Clarkson, Thompson, Hardwick, even Goodwin comment.

None seem to realise they all had year on year improvement with credits in the bank when the down year came.

Voss brought in as a finisher to take us into finals. Not a rebuild coach. We had that with Bolton, and then Teague was meant to be same as Voss...

Sent from my SM-N981B using Tapatalk

 

[jd2010]

No it isn't all about money - how easily they can make it is up there as well - and far far behind that is winning a flag or playing finals - as in far far far behind that.

That is why Cubs who overpay for 'stars' never get the value they expect.

That is why Cook has made mention of Carlton's top heavy salary cap.

Serious errors have been m, made before Voss and Cook joined re salaries and duration and player types.

No doubt that Martin/McGovern/Williams have all gamed Carlton- and I have no doubt that 3 current stars at Carlton have as well.

I hate the Gov and Williams contracts especially. But playing devils advocate here. There's a salary cap to fill and X amount of list spots to fill. Even when holding those disgusting contracts, who have we lost that we didn't want to?

 

[JustaBattler]

You’re convoluting your story.

I don’t disagree that some players “game the system” the 3 u listed have done so very effectively- that said we were stupid enough to allow it! Plenty of things we could put in place not to let that happen.

Money isn’t the driving factor, but it definitely becomes a factor.

Every player in any contact sport knows that they are one injury away from a career end.
I'll leave it at that.