South Africa v India Dec 10, 2023- Jan 4, 2024 3 T20s 3 ODIs 2 Tests

[The 747]

Was predicting a closer game than this.
From memory, India have always struggled in South Africa.
Just didn't think it would be a innings defeat

Aside from Bumrah Indian bowling wasn't up to the task.

 

[StingBitten]

I know as a Windies fan I always get the ‘cricket needs your team to be thriving’ comments and I understand them because in the short formats at least, we are always, when playing well, among the most 1-2 most watchable sides in the world. So I get that.

Test cricket to me NEEDS SA to be strong.

They have the most spectator friendly conditions for a start: fast bouncy pitches that to be fair, are more exciting generally than MOST of Australia’s, the Gabba and occasionally Perth being the exceptions. PE can be a bit bland sometimes but as a general rule they are the best viewing grounds in the world, and the stadia are a bit more picturesque to go with it.

They have the only fast bowling production line that matches Australia and realistically probably has exceeded it:
Donald, Pollock, Ntini, Steyn, Philander, Kallis, Rabada, Morkel might shade McGrath, Hughes, Gillespie, Lee, Johnson, Starc, Cummins and Hazlewood for 200+ wicket takers I’ve seen in my lifetime. Either way it is close. Given how revered Australia is during that 30 years, it’s incredible to think another team has maybe matched it (to be fair to Australia they’ve had the better of the next tier with bowlers like Kasper, Fleming, Bichel, Pattinson, Clark I think - SA has had Nel, McMillan who never took a five-fer, Ngidi and Jansen look like great prospects).

They have never had much of a spin cartel but that’s probably to be expected.

They’re the only team that’s taken it up to Australia with any regularity other than the recent Indian sides, they had a huge patch of overseas competitiveness - a decade worth - and from memory played some major parts in ending some English captaincy careers which is always nice.

They have had some of the toughest players I’ve seen - guys like Gary Kirsten and Grahame Smith are among the first players that come to mind when I think of the hardest cricketers I’ve seen since Border retired and like everyone who witnessed it, nothing will ever make me forget the roar of the crowd when Smith emerged to face peak Mitchell Johnson at the SCG in one last show of defiance 15 years ago to try and save a dead rubber in a series they’d already won.

Equally in players like De Villiers and Cullinan - who unfortunately is remembered for his ineptitude early against Warnie - and Amla, they have also had some of the most breathtaking batsmen of the modern game, as well as perhaps the most correct in Kallis, and in Kallis and Pollock they had two guys who in another era could have, if they wanted to, cut a formidable career in two completely different facets of the game to the ones for which they were most famous. I once read that Pollock out of every batsman around during the same era, had the style that most closely resembled Brian Lara’s, he was just very rarely called upon to use it in anything other than a rearguard or number 8 capacity.

They’ve done all this with far less interest pervading the format in their home country than what the big three have in theirs.

To me test cricket needs them to ‘keep the bastards honest’ as it were. Pakistan are logically the other side that should be well resourced enough to do it but a) they never play India and b) they are simply never good enough for long enough to make it happen

Great post.

As a saffa-born I find it frustrating how easily the side is dismissed by my Aussie peers as departing into irrelevance when as you say - they'd produced some incredibly enthralling series with unbelievable players (effectively in a third-world country with a small cricket playing community).

You've summed up the history and quality well, and not to sound controversial but it is positive to see a few White players breaking into the side instead of departing for England or other colonial outposts that tend to gobble them up.

 

[PhatBoy]

Great post.

As a saffa-born I find it frustrating how easily the side is dismissed by my Aussie peers as departing into irrelevance when as you say - they'd produced some incredibly enthralling series with unbelievable players (effectively in a third-world country with a small cricket playing community).

You've summed up the history and quality well, and not to sound controversial but it is positive to see a few White players breaking into the side instead of departing for England or other colonial outposts that tend to gobble them up.

They suffer in Australia because a huge part of the cricket following demographic grew up on them being second best and seem unable to grasp that the sides which did that were actually really good and drew the first two series with Australia in the mid-90s after readmission before losing twice by a single test.
It was only during that absolute peak Australian period that they got dominated twice.
Then eventually came a period where they won 4, drew 1, and lost two series out of 7 and it almost seems like Aussie fans didn’t know it happened. They have been a genuinely good-to-great side for almost all of the last 31 years and cricket has been better for it given that they’ve always had these great pace bowling line ups and at least a couple of really good batsmen to watch even if some of the other guys have been a bit dour.

For some reason they get the rough end of the memory stick though:
Often people remember - and many remember it as boring - the slow draw in Adelaide rather than the absolute demolition at Perth that followed it where Amla and ABDV made 370 off 400 between them.

Everyone remembers Devon Malcolm taking 9 wickets at The Oval bowling like the wind, and rightly so, but no one seems to remember amidst the carnage that Daryll Cullinan smacked 94 at the other end and never looked in a hint of bother.

Even when they bowled Australia out for 47 its forgotten that they themselves were bowled out for 80-odd and somehow bounced back, and then chased down 200 2-down like it was a walk in the park.

I know it’s not the Ashes I can appreciate that, but you get the impression that a lot of the moments and incidents that they’ve been involved with over the years would garner a different view if they had been wearing either of two logos on blue caps

 

[akkaps]

Last tour was the closest they’ve realistically been to winning there and Keegan Petersen saw to that.

Are you a bit concerned for your side Akkaps? Seem to have some gaps at the moment - Gill still has plenty of time on his side but hasn’t come on as he would have liked, Rahul is very hit and miss, Sharma likewise when he’s on the road: Kohli is propping the batting up any time you guys travel at the moment.

I was hoping for some improvement from last time.

We have so many untapped top and middle over bats that could make the squad. I have no issues with Yash, bt he still needs time. We cannot say much about a series against the Windies to justify his position. As for Shubman, thought he would have been a good number 3 to replace Pujara, but I am not seeing that. We need to find someone quickly that can secure that spot

Rahul has improved since he got married, and has been a shining light in the WC and now this Test.
Kohli is consistently Kohli can't really say much as he is still performing well. I'm afraid that he will continue to play until 40 and be another Tendulkar holding down the 4 spot without development
Rohit has passed he's time and should only be playing occasional games. In my opinion, Shreyas should have been given the captain with Rahul and Shubman as VCs

I am still not fully convinced on Shardul, will never be fully convinced with him.

We have a big list of bowlers as well, that should be good enough, but I gotta pay a little more attention to the Ind A game and see how that's all going.

 

[StingBitten]

They suffer in Australia because a huge part of the cricket following demographic grew up on them being second best and seem unable to grasp that the sides which did that were actually really good and drew the first two series with Australia in the mid-90s after readmission before losing twice by a single test.
It was only during that absolute peak Australian period that they got dominated twice.
Then eventually came a period where they won 4, drew 1, and lost two series out of 7 and it almost seems like Aussie fans didn’t know it happened. They have been a genuinely good-to-great side for almost all of the last 31 years and cricket has been better for it given that they’ve always had these great pace bowling line ups and at least a couple of really good batsmen to watch even if some of the other guys have been a bit dour.

For some reason they get the rough end of the memory stick though:
Often people remember - and many remember it as boring - the slow draw in Adelaide rather than the absolute demolition at Perth that followed it where Amla and ABDV made 370 off 400 between them.

Everyone remembers Devon Malcolm taking 9 wickets at The Oval bowling like the wind, and rightly so, but no one seems to remember amidst the carnage that Daryll Cullinan smacked 94 at the other end and never looked in a hint of bother.

Even when they bowled Australia out for 47 its forgotten that they themselves were bowled out for 80-odd and somehow bounced back, and then chased down 200 2-down like it was a walk in the park.

I know it’s not the Ashes I can appreciate that, but you get the impression that a lot of the moments and incidents that they’ve been involved with over the years would garner a different view if they had been wearing either of two logos on blue caps

Interesting insights - I was at the Perth test (dressed as Amla ironically) as it was Ponting's last. It was a demolition - as for the Adelaide test Morne Morkel (my cousin actually) held firm with Siddle doing everything he could to displace him.

South Africa had won 3 test series in a row on Australian home soil from 2008-2016 and when they came last summer most people I spoke to said 'Huh? Don't we usually whip the Saffas?'. Despite this, people will discuss the 2010/11 Ashes non-stop and India's last two series victories over here as Hollywood blockbusters.

There are so many similarities between the two sides with fast bowlers, stoic batsmen and some incredible fielding and yet it's rarely even referred to as a 'rivalry' even among hardcore cricket fans.

 

[PhatBoy]

Interesting insights - I was at the Perth test (dressed as Amla ironically) as it was Ponting's last. It was a demolition - as for the Adelaide test Morne Morkel (my cousin actually) held firm with Siddle doing everything he could to displace him.

South Africa had won 3 test series in a row on Australian home soil from 2008-2016 and when they came last summer most people I spoke to said 'Huh? Don't we usually whip the Saffas?'. Despite this, people will discuss the 2010/11 Ashes non-stop and India's last two series victories over here as Hollywood blockbusters.

There are so many similarities between the two sides with fast bowlers, stoic batsmen and some incredible fielding and yet it's rarely even referred to as a 'rivalry' even among hardcore cricket fans.

It had built a little bit in the 90s when those two drawn series took place and the famous Sydney test and SA were so close to winning in Adelaide in 97-98 (Mark Waugh hitting the bail) and then another close series in SA then the two demolitions maybe put paid to that I guess, I’m not sure but yeah they probably definitely just stopped getting the respect that they earned. And the non-die hard cricket fan in Australia is completely oblivious to their ridiculous streak of away success

 

[corbies]

Hopefully we can get the silly 2nd Test over quickly so we can get to the good stuff that allows Indian cement companies to put another extension on Graeme Smiths house.

 

[corbies]

I’m not sure of their bowling cartel who SA will and won’t have available to tour - I’m assuming Rabada won’t go- but I hope they have a strong atattack.

Unless they get some releases there's going to be no Rabada, Jansen, Ngidi, Coetzee, Nortje, Nandre Burger, Lizaad Williams, Mulder, Maharaj, Harmer, Muthusamy.

Even the blokes behind those guys are out if they're even remotely good with the white ball. Sisanda Magala, Duan Jansen, Bjorn Fortuin, Daryn Dupavillon, Beyers Swanepoel (check out this blokes fc stats), Eathan Bosch, Beuran Hendricks, George Linde.

They coaxed Dane Piedt out of trying to qualify for the USA on the idea that he could play in this NZ series so there's some sort of spinner.

Then you're left with Duane Olivier and debutants. Unless some low Test Fast bowling wonders from the recent past make a resurgence. A Glenton Stuurman, Lutho Sipamla, Hardus Viljoen.

 

[akkaps]

South Africa's squad for NZ:
Neil Brand (capt), David Bedingham, Ruan de Swardt, Clyde Fortuin, Zubayr Hamza, Tshepo Moreki, Mihlali Mpongwana, Duanne Olivier, Dane Paterson, Keegan Petersen, Dane Piedt, Raynard van Tonder, Shaun von Berg, Khaya Zondo

 

[candyapple]

What a disgrace

Indian blood money is ruining the sport

 

[PhatBoy]

South Africa's squad for NZ:
Neil Brand (capt), David Bedingham, Ruan de Swardt, Clyde Fortuin, Zubayr Hamza, Tshepo Moreki, Mihlali Mpongwana, Duanne Olivier, Dane Paterson, Keegan Petersen, Dane Piedt, Raynard van Tonder, Shaun von Berg, Khaya Zondo

Zondo is barely FC standard really, for a guy with no other real strings to his bow playing in a country with a first and second tier FC system to average what he does is pretty poor.

Not trying to shit on your country Akkaps because I love how your test team plays the game in many ways but what the IPL has done to cricket just hurts in so many others.

 

[THE A5]

Surely the ICC now has to step in and do something. I’d be quite pissed in a way if I was NZ.

 

[akkaps]

Not trying to s**t on your country Akkaps because I love how your test team plays the game in many ways but what the IPL has done to cricket just hurts in so many others.

I understand where you are coming from. And I hate the fact that T20 is taking over from Test cricket.
But I don't think it's fully the IPL to blame. CSA could have gone anywhere ownership of the T20 franchises, approaching the Premier League clubs may have been an option because I know that the Glazer's would have been interested. The CSA were looking for rich investors for their SA20, and they just happen to find them in the IPL owners. The CSA should have done a split like the ILT20 and MLC. Which is now how the CPL work, with half IPL owners.
If you want deep cricket pockets you go to India, we know that's a fact. But it's not your only answer.

Remember the T20 Global League, prior to the Mzansi Super League, only 2 of the 6 teams where owned by the IPL.

 

[Cleavy]

South Africa's squad for NZ:
Neil Brand (capt), David Bedingham, Ruan de Swardt, Clyde Fortuin, Zubayr Hamza, Tshepo Moreki, Mihlali Mpongwana, Duanne Olivier, Dane Paterson, Keegan Petersen, Dane Piedt, Raynard van Tonder, Shaun von Berg, Khaya Zondo

Neil Brand is set to become just the second player to debut as Test captain in the last 50 years (excluding country's debut Tests)
------------
previous one was Lee Germon for NZ? I always remember him for that.

 

[SSwans2011]

Yeah pretty sad day for Test cricket when THAT is a South African squad for a Test series. FMD.

 

[corbies]

I've definitely forgotten people but I think this would be the equivalent sqaud if it was Australia and a squad of players without a BBL contract. I'm assuming current Aussie guys who dont have a current BBL contract in Green, Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc would have a contract in these circumstances. You might get a Fergus O'Neill or Mitch Perry back if that were the case.

P. Handscomb (c)
W. Pucovski
M. Harris
J. Clayton
T. Ward
D. Drew
T. Wyllie
B. Street
J. Doran
C. Tremain
L. Neil-Smith
C. Stobo
G. Bell
J. Buckingham
J. Freeman

 

[THE A5]

I've definitely forgotten people but I think this would be the equivalent sqaud if it was Australia and a squad of players without a BBL contract. I'm assuming current Aussie guys who dont have a current BBL contract in Green, Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc would have a contract in these circumstances. You might get a Fergus O'Neill or Mitch Perry back if that were the case.

P. Handscomb (c)
W. Pucovski
M. Harris
J. Clayton
T. Ward
D. Drew
T. Wyllie
B. Street
J. Doran
C. Tremain
L. Neil-Smith
C. Stobo
G. Bell
J. Buckingham
J. Freeman

Well with the Aussie squad in and better International you’ll probably some of the better fc players but average BBL players come into that line up. Boland and Paris are two names that pop up but there could be a couple others

 

[candyapple]

I feel Marnus would swim overseas to play in a test match

 

[PhatBoy]

I’m sure there are some ins and outs of the situation missing from this but I read today after some very brief research that SA’s highest paid cricketer through contracts is Rabada at the equivalent of about $250,000 Australian dollars.

For some perspective, Pat Cummins’ bonus this year for being captain was $200,000 AUD.

 

[ioppolo]

I've definitely forgotten people but I think this would be the equivalent sqaud if it was Australia and a squad of players without a BBL contract. I'm assuming current Aussie guys who dont have a current BBL contract in Green, Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc would have a contract in these circumstances. You might get a Fergus O'Neill or Mitch Perry back if that were the case.

P. Handscomb (c)
W. Pucovski
M. Harris
J. Clayton
T. Ward
D. Drew
T. Wyllie
B. Street
J. Doran
C. Tremain
L. Neil-Smith
C. Stobo
G. Bell
J. Buckingham
J. Freeman

Would finish last in the Sheffield shield.

 

[NYRB]

Test Match 2. SA won toss and elected to bat first.

Teams:

India (Playing XI): Rohit Sharma(c), Yashasvi Jaiswal, Shubman Gill, Virat Kohli, Shreyas Iyer, KL Rahul(w), Ravindra Jadeja, Jasprit Bumrah, Mohammed Siraj, Prasidh Krishna, Mukesh Kumar

South Africa (Playing XI): Dean Elgar(c), Aiden Markram, Tony de Zorzi, Tristan Stubbs, David Bedingham, Kyle Verreynne(w), Marco Jansen, Keshav Maharaj, Kagiso Rabada, Nandre Burger, Lungi Ngidi

 

[The 747]

Siraj gets Markham early, 1/5.

 

[PhatBoy]

Markram still isn't a good test opener, that was a quality ball from Siraj though.

Averages 42 opening in South Africa, and 38 opening overall, and has never passed 50 in 7 innings batting in any other position.

I dare say it’s probably his best bet if he’s going to forge a meaningful career anywhere in the order

 

[The 747]

Siraj gets Elgar, 2/8.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Elgar gets a gimmee & drags it onto the stumps. 2/8

Debutante Stubbs enters…& nearly gets run out.