Opinion Sydney Swans Academy and Rebuild

[drasticswans]

The whole premise of the argument here is that Sydney has an unfair advantage with the way the academy is currently set up and they probably do, but thats only if you look at it stand alone.

Some people on this board have been going on about equality and fairness which is something any league should always strive for. If that is truly the ultimate goal then clearly there should be a holistic approach as to how to achieve that. Singling out the Swans academy while blindly ignoring FS and NGA's is just ridiculous.

If you want to strive for equality, then make everything equal. As an example for some of the things mentioned:
-Grand finals to be located where minor premiers are located
-NGA/father son rules
-no third party agreements
-no free agency and no ability to have the go home factor (trades only)

As many have already pointed out, the go home factor is a big card that is often under sold. Players who are coming into the league such as Archie Perkins shouldnt have the ability to dictate where they play. You dont see that happening in the nba or nfl. You go where you are drafted (other than a few examples like good old eli manning).

The reality of the above is, there is no way that having no free agency will happen. Players wont allow it. Grand finals being in melbourne will continue to be there because its money driven. So in reality, theres no way for equality and so really this whole discussion is pointless. If you truly want equality, then remove free agency, change the grand final location and do all those other things. I'm sure if the swans have any measure of success than everything will be changed due to the media.

 

[FreoFan85]

It devalues your argument when you make claims which are not supported by facts. The Lions, as an example of a team which has an academy, has had one first round draftee from its academy (pick 14 Hipwood) in its history from memory.

It devaluates your argument when you claim that one person is making up facts, without bothering to check them yourselves...I will take that yes 2017 does not include "Every Year"

So back to North Melbourne and any other club you can see where players are taken every year from the first round/early second round. Inhibiting a teams ability to climb the ladder quickly.




2014

1

18

Isaac Heeney

Sydney

Cardiff

BDAFL

Academy player

2015

3

Callum Mills

Sydney

North Shore

Sydney AFL

Academy player; Melbourne's bid matched with picks 33, 36, 37 and 43[128]

2016

1

5

Will Setterfield

Greater Western Sydney

Sandringham Dragons

TAC Cup

Academy player, Carlton's bid matched with picks 15 and 37.

1

10

Jack Bowes

Gold Coast

Cairns

AFL Cairns

Academy player, Sydney's bid matched with pick 11.

1

14

Harry Perryman

Greater Western Sydney

Collingullie-Glenfield Park

RFNL

Academy player, Adelaide's bid matched with picks 38, 44 and 51.

1

20

Isaac Cumming

Greater Western Sydney

North Broken Hill

BHFL

Academy player, Sydney's bid matched with picks 52, 54, 55 and 56.

2017
* earliest taken pick 43 Connor Ballenden

2018

10	Nick Blakey	Sydney	UNSW-Eastern Suburbs	Sydney AFL	Academy selection​

34	Kieren Briggs	Greater Western Sydney	Pennant Hills	Sydney AFL	Academy selection​

2019

10	Tom Green	Greater Western Sydney	Canberra Demons	NEAFL	Academy selection, matched bid by Carlton​

2020

5	Braeden Campbell	Sydney	Pennant Hills	Sydney AFL	Academy selection, matched bid by Hawthorn​

24	Blake Coleman	Brisbane Lions	Morningside	QAFL	Academy selection, matched bid by Collingwood ​

32	Errol Gulden	Sydney	UNSW-Eastern Suburbs Bulldogs	Sydney AFL	Academy selection, matched bid by Geelong​

 

[Elixuh]

You don't get the same output as the Sydney academy because you have nowhere near the same catchment area and your catchment area has nowhere near the same junior participation rates.

It's a flawed argument.

Effectively, the argument is that because Sydney's academy is achieving its express purpose, it should be taken away. I agree with a review of some of the mechanisms but the overarching argument is that it should be gone.

Irrespective, the argument is being made against academies generally with Sydney's currently being used to push the point. Any change to academies will likely affect all academies. When Harris was taken at pick 61 then turned out to be a good player a few years later, Brisbane was used as an example of why academies are unfair. The people making these arguments pick whoever has currently had some success with their academy players as the example of why is should be gone.

I genuinely hate the talk about reclocating/folding clubs but the same people that are peddling the academy stuff are also working behind the scenes whenever possible to reduce the number of clubs in Melbourne. That is well known. Again, its all about those who are benefiting from systemic advantages not wanting those advantages to be watered down at all.

 

[Elixuh]

It devaluates your argument when you claim that one person is making up facts, without bothering to check them yourselves...I will take that yes 2017 does not include "Every Year"

So back to North Melbourne and any other club you can see where players are taken every year from the first round/early second round. Inhibiting a teams ability to climb the ladder quickly.




2014

1

18

Isaac Heeney

Sydney

Cardiff

BDAFL

Academy player

2015

3

Callum Mills

Sydney

North Shore

Sydney AFL

Academy player; Melbourne's bid matched with picks 33, 36, 37 and 43[128]

2016

1

5

Will Setterfield

Greater Western Sydney

Sandringham Dragons

TAC Cup

Academy player, Carlton's bid matched with picks 15 and 37.

1

10

Jack Bowes

Gold Coast

Cairns

AFL Cairns

Academy player, Sydney's bid matched with pick 11.

1

14

Harry Perryman

Greater Western Sydney

Collingullie-Glenfield Park

RFNL

Academy player, Adelaide's bid matched with picks 38, 44 and 51.

1

20

Isaac Cumming

Greater Western Sydney

North Broken Hill

BHFL

Academy player, Sydney's bid matched with picks 52, 54, 55 and 56.

2017
* earliest taken pick 43 Connor Ballenden

2018

10	Nick Blakey	Sydney	UNSW-Eastern Suburbs	Sydney AFL	Academy selection​

34	Kieren Briggs	Greater Western Sydney	Pennant Hills	Sydney AFL	Academy selection​

2019

10	Tom Green	Greater Western Sydney	Canberra Demons	NEAFL	Academy selection, matched bid by Carlton​

2020

5	Braeden Campbell	Sydney	Pennant Hills	Sydney AFL	Academy selection, matched bid by Hawthorn​

24	Blake Coleman	Brisbane Lions	Morningside	QAFL	Academy selection, matched bid by Collingwood​

32	Errol Gulden	Sydney	UNSW-Eastern Suburbs Bulldogs	Sydney AFL	Academy selection, matched bid by Geelong​

This, this doesn't show that any club is receiving multiple first round picks every year. What are you talking about.

 

[FreoFan85]

North had every opportunity to draft Blakey

And where would have he ended up had the academies not been set up?

 

[Sphynx]

Effectively, the argument is that because Sydney's academy is achieving its express purpose, it should be taken away. I agree with a review of some of the mechanisms but the overarching argument is that it should be gone.

Irrespective, the argument is being made against academies generally with Sydney's currently being used to push the point. Any change to academies will likely affect all academies. When Harris was taken at pick 61 then turned out to be a good player a few years later, Brisbane was used as an example of why academies are unfair. The people making these arguments pick whoever has currently had some success with their academy players as the example of why is should be gone.

I genuinely hate the talk about reclocating/folding clubs but the same people that are peddling the academy stuff are also working behind the scenes whenever possible to reduce the number of clubs in Melbourne. That is well known. Again, its all about those who are benefiting from systemic advantages not wanting those advantages to be watered down at all.

I don't believe the academy should be taken away at all?

Why do people keep sprouting this line?

ALL forms of de-equalisation need to be brought into line. F/S, NGA and the Acadamies. NGA will essentially be close to abolished in 2022 after the outcry of the last 3 years.

I think if Northern acadamies are scaled back slightly to the 2021 NGA rules, it evens out the system exponentially.

Top end talent is still developed for the good of the competition as a whole, the Northern Academy clubs are still able to match bids from Round 2 onwards.

I think F/S should be scaled back to the 2022 NGA rules. No matched bids before pick 40.


I have no issue with the general idea of the academies. I have an issue with the double dipping system and the harvesting of the talent pool for clubs that are genuinely rebuilding.

Between the mid 2000's PP rort, GC, GWS, Northern acadmies, NGA there's barely been an untouched draft in 20 years.

 

[BloodySwan]

And where would have he ended up had the academies not been set up?

I dunno, he'd probably be studying business at UNSW or something.

Bailey Scott was a part of the Suns academy, didn't stop him from nominating North as his preferred location.

 

[Elixuh]

I don't believe the academy should be taken away at all?

Why do people keep sprouting this line?

ALL forms of de-equalisation need to be brought into line. F/S, NGA and the Acadamies. NGA will essentially be close to abolished in 2022 after the outcry of the last 3 years.

I think if Northern acadamies are scaled back slightly to the 2021 NGA rules, it evens out the system exponentially.

Top end talent is still developed for the good of the competition as a whole, the Northern Academy clubs are still able to match bids from Round 2 onwards.

I think F/S should be scaled back to the 2022 NGA rules. No matched bids before pick 40.

I didn't say you did. Read my post.

 

[Sphynx]

I dunno, he'd probably be studying business at UNSW or something.

Bailey Scott was a part of the Suns academy, didn't stop him from nominating North as his preferred location.

Do you know why he selected North over Geelong and GC?

 

[FreoFan85]

This, this doesn't show that any club is receiving multiple first round picks every year. What are you talking about.

I'm not going to go through every single one, but for example

Logan Mcdonald & Braden Campbell (if academy doesn't exist you only get one pick)
Lachlan Ash & Tom Green (If academy doesn'y exist you only get one pick)
Nick Blakey (much more complicated with live picks etc... but you don't walk away with a future second you get one or the other)
Will Brodie & Jack Bowes (if acedmy doesn't exist you only get one).


Thus the academies are allowing multiple first and early second round picks NEARLY every year.

So a club like North Melbourne (admittedly they got Tarryn Thomas* but this loophole is closing now) doesn't have the same ability.

 

[Punts]

Is Thomas being developed properly?

 

[BloodySwan]

Do you know why he selected North over Geelong and GC?

No idea

 

[Kwality]

This just devalues your argument. Currently, no one wants to play for North Melbourne (there only avenue is to significantly overpay) only compounding the situation. Any player that wants to return to the state has 8 more viable options. Their only option is to draft each year in which they are given 1 first, 1 second round pick etc They don't have any currency to trade out and get better draft picks and even if they traded out every asset they own they still don't have that attractive of a draft hand and will be continually belted week in week out (already happening now) which only compounds the problem further.

The way this plays out is they have only one option...they have to essentially finish in the bottom 4 for 5-6 years before they can even have a chance of pulling themselves out of the situation. In which case they still need to be lucky as there are many draft duds over the year.

Meanwhile, up the road a club has only one rival in the state, a point of difference for players wanting to avoid the spotlight and an academy that is allowing multiple first round picks/ conversion options (every year).

Can you blame them for being angry?

Angry is one thing, but taking it out on the Swans is nonsense of the highest order.

Even historically the Swans were turfed out of Melbourne & have made the most of it, they kicked off their academy supported by their major sponsor not the AFL.
North could have been sent* to Brisbane, they chose not to, they tried rebranding themselves as the travellin' Roos, a national branding exercise no one was sucked in by, now the Tassie Government wont fund their latest attempt at earning a buck. Its disingenuous to pick at the Swans success.

*

 

[RUNVS]

Is Thomas being developed properly?

If he is at North Melbourne then the answer is no.

 

[Sphynx]

No idea

He wanted to be close to Melbourne University for his studies.

Had nothing to do with football teams in the end, nor even who his father had won flags with.

 

[BloodySwan]

He wanted to be close to Melbourne University for his studies.

Had nothing to do with football teams in the end, nor even who his father had won flags with.

I'm not really following the point you're trying to make here......

 

[sherb]

So just wind back the clock 150 years and make Aussie Rules the #1 football code in NSW. Then we’ll all be working from the same baseline.

We are approaching the 140th anniversary of Australian Football first being played on the SCG.

The game has a far richer history in NSW than many people realize.

140 Years of Australian Football at the SCG – NSW Australian Football History Society Inc

 

[Elixuh]

I'm not going to go through every single one, but for example

Logan Mcdonald & Braden Campbell (if academy doesn't exist you only get one pick)
Lachlan Ash & Tom Green (If academy doesn'y exist you only get one pick)
Nick Blakey (much more complicated with live picks etc... but you don't walk away with a future second you get one or the other)
Will Brodie & Jack Bowes (if acedmy doesn't exist you only get one).


Thus the academies are allowing multiple first and early second round picks NEARLY every year.

So a club like North Melbourne (admittedly they got Tarryn Thomas* but this loophole is closing now) doesn't have the same ability.

There we go! That a bit of a change hey.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Do you know why he selected North over Geelong and GC?

I'll have a stab.......ignorance?

 

[Substance]

I don't think there is an issue currently, the academies themselves are clearly a good thing, but I think the 20% discount might be too much. That goes for F/S picks too.

 

[FreoFan85]

Angry is one thing, but taking it out on the Swans is nonsense of the highest order.

Even historically the Swans were turfed out of Melbourne & have made the most of it, they kicked off their academy supported by their major sponsor not the AFL.
North could have been sent* to Brisbane, they chose not to, they tried rebranding themselves as the travellin' Roos, a national branding exercise no one was sucked in by, now the Tassie Government wont fund their latest attempt at earning a buck. Its disingenuous to pick at the Swans success.

*

Completley agree with most things you say. I'm just using North Melbourne (as others were already discussing them) as a case file.
The same argument can be made for any team finishing in the bottom. I wanted to avoid using my own club, but i will, especially with you being a West Coast supporter i'm sure you are familiar with our narrative.

Think of how many times you have heard the words Cerra and Brayshaw intrinsically linked together (almost as if they are one player) as our great hope for the future (serong has been added to that list, but irrelevant to the conversation). We were only awarded that opportunity through finishing down near the bottom of the ladder and then getting a second high draft pick for the Lachie Weller trade. So if it is such a big deal for us having these two when we have had to earn it (wrong word but you get what i mean) by having to finish down the bottom and give up another 1st round pick in Weller, you can see how it angers supporters when direct advantages are handed out that allow a very similar case(especially to teams that have several premierships under their belt).

As a west coast supporter can you imagine how many times we have been laughed at for being a useless football club, mocked, degraded etc do you not think that we would like advantages of other teams that can essentially inhibit our own progress?

Don't get me wrong there are other major inconsistencies Free Agency Compensation, NGA that need to be looked at.

 

[RUNVS]

I don't think there is an issue currently, the academies themselves are clearly a good thing, but I think the 20% discount might be too much. That goes for F/S picks too.

I must admit the discount always seemed really weird to me since no one ever paid the full price in the first place.

 

[Kwality]

Completley agree with most things you say. I'm just using North Melbourne (as others were already discussing them) as a case file.
The same argument can be made for any team finishing in the bottom. I wanted to avoid using my own club, but i will, especially with you being a West Coast supporter i'm sure you are familiar with our narrative.

Think of how many times you have heard the words Cerra and Brayshaw intrinsically linked together (almost as if they are one player) as our great hope for the future (serong has been added to that list, but irrelevant to the conversation). We were only awarded that opportunity through finishing down near the bottom of the ladder and then getting a second high draft pick for the Lachie Weller trade. So if it is such a big deal for us having these two when we have had to earn it (wrong word but you get what i mean) by having to finish down the bottom and give up another 1st round pick in Weller, you can see how it angers supporters when direct advantages are handed out that allow a very similar case(especially to teams that have several premierships under their belt).

As a west coast supporter can you imagine how many times we have been laughed at for being a useless football club, mocked, degraded etc do you not think that we would like advantages of other teams that can essentially inhibit our own progress?

Don't get me wrong there are other major inconsistencies Free Agency Compensation, NGA that need to be looked at.

Nothing would please me more than a Freo flag.
I stood next my father who endured a 49 year hoodoo as a Subi supporter when they broke through in 1973, Dad was in his late 50s. That Subi flag beats the Eagles 92 flag for me. I trust you enjoy your day, it will come.

I well understand being the underdog & living in Vic I also understand the belief that the likes of Cerra/Brayshaw will go home. Take it as an endorsement of your club doing things right.

 

[FreoFan85]

There we go! That a bit of a change hey.

Quite the passive aggressive comment.
Would you like me to reword it to Every year since 2018? or would you prefer me to list it From 2015 with the exception of 2017? Either way it still shows massive holes in the system.

Do you believe the system to be infallible?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

You can be as snippy as you want mate, but it won't change the facts that (a) your grievance about COLA is better directed at your club president who signed off on the deal like all the club presidents did and (b) there are massive inconsistencies and irregularities in the national comp as it now stands.

More than happy to discuss what should be done to set that to rights; more than happy to hear criticisms of the academy system as it currently functions, but any suggestion that there shouldn't be any sort of compensation/equalisation measures in place to make it a truly even national competition is just fingers-in-the-ears-lah-lah-lah stuff.

It is a national competition, each club has equal access to players through the draft, they have the same salary caps to build a list. Each club has pros and cons that impact them with regards to drafting, recruiting or retaining players but every club needs to play by the same set of rules. North have had a "war chest" and trying to land big name targets for years but the perception of them being a poor club means no big players wants to go there. Should there be equalisation measures to address that too? Handing some clubs priority picks through academies is ridiculous especially when one of the main beneficiaries has had a prolonged period of success going back to the mid-90s. The Swans are already a well run, successful club, they already have a great record in recruiting or retaining players, they don't need these extra handouts to remain competitive.