Team Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list - midfield balance, height profile, endurance runners

[Ants]

Guelfi and Snelling are playing for one spot. They are not genuine small forwards. The do not crumb and are not quick. There is one spot for the hard at it defensive forwards. Mass could well take on on of the forward spots. I am not getting on the Munkara wagon. He has x factor but his attitude towards doing the hard work needed has been poor from what I hear.

I agree , if it was not Sheezal I am not looking at small forwards . My opinion is Sheezal will be much more than a small forward anyway.

I'm not sure why there is only room for one player of that type in the side. Richmond played 3-4, Melbourne 2-3 in their premiership years. Not that I'm saying we have to line up like that, I just wouldn't rule it out when considering small forward candidates, options and structures.

I also think Guelfi really elevated his crumbing game in the second half of the year. As someone who considered him nothing more than depth and wouldn't have minded him leaving 12 months ago, although I'm not yet convinced he can maintain the level, I thought the level he showed in the second half of the year was well worth an AFL spot. 1.2 goals a game added to his pressure would get you into a lot of sides. In fact, 1.2 goals a game if he'd done it for the year, would have had him ranked top 70 in the league for goal scoring. Now, 10 games is a small sample. There are definitely valid concerns he won't maintain it. But I feel he did well enough that his candidacy as a goal kicking pressure forward shouldn't be simply ignored.

 

[Ants]

It may be Draper who goes. Bryan has the best pure ruck skills and reads the game a lot better than Draper. If he takes the next step , which he has to , he can be a better player.
I have mentioned Keeler before. I agree that having your second ruck being able to hold his own as a forward will be gold.

Agreed, it definitely could be Draper who goes. I'm really saying one of them asking to be traded would trigger a decision for us on who to keep and who to let go. The problem isn't so much Bryan or Draper per se leaving. It's that if either left it leaves us with almost no ruck cover beyond a 31(?)yr old Phillips who averages a handful of games a year for his career.

 

[citizen-erased]

It may be Draper who goes. Bryan has the best pure ruck skills and reads the game a lot better than Draper. If he takes the next step , which he has to , he can be a better player.
I have mentioned Keeler before. I agree that having your second ruck being able to hold his own as a forward will be gold.

Would lover keeler at 22 if the pick survives or we can trade it up
Sheezel + keeler then the daveys, then use 2023 to find the gun mids to round out the side

 

[rusman]

Agreed, it definitely could be Draper who goes. I'm really saying one of them asking to be traded would trigger a decision for us on who to keep and who to let go. The problem isn't so much Bryan or Draper per se leaving. It's that if either left it leaves us with almost no ruck cover beyond a 31(?)yr old Phillips who averages a handful of games a year for his career.

I’d only use a rookie pick or cat b rookie on a ruck at the moment.

I actually think ruck is the one position you should not use a 30 top pick for (ideally later pick).

The exception would be if you don’t have a quality starting ruck. I’m which case I would trade one in as a ready made product.

Seems to me there is regularly a cheap solid ruck looking for opportunities most off seasons. Your better off trading for one of these if you need a back up or even a starting ruck.

Eg Witt’s Pruess lycette ladlams hickey Cameron then even players like ceglar Stanley fort & Ryder.

 

[ant555]

I'm not sure why there is only room for one player of that type in the side. Richmond played 3-4, Melbourne 2-3 in their premiership years. Not that I'm saying we have to line up like that, I just wouldn't rule it out when considering small forward candidates, options and structures.

I also think Guelfi really elevated his crumbing game in the second half of the year. As someone who considered him nothing more than depth and wouldn't have minded him leaving 12 months ago, although I'm not yet convinced he can maintain the level, I thought the level he showed in the second half of the year was well worth an AFL spot. 1.2 goals a game added to his pressure would get you into a lot of sides. In fact, 1.2 goals a game if he'd done it for the year, would have had him ranked top 70 in the league for goal scoring. Now, 10 games is a small sample. There are definitely valid concerns he won't maintain it. But I feel he did well enough that his candidacy as a goal kicking pressure forward shouldn't be simply ignored.

Depends if you want a slow forward line that leaks footy going the other way or if you want a bit of speed from a couple of them that puts on more pressure.
Geulfi got Wallas spot. I know who I prefer.

 

[ant555]

I’d only use a rookie pick or cat b rookie on a ruck at the moment.

I actually think ruck is the one position you should not use a 30 top pick for (ideally later pick).

The exception would be if you don’t have a quality starting ruck. I’m which case I would trade one in as a ready made product.

Seems to me there is regularly a cheap solid ruck looking for opportunities most off seasons. Your better off trading for one of these if you need a back up or even a starting ruck.

Eg Witt’s Pruess lycette ladlams hickey Cameron then even players like ceglar Stanley fort & Ryder.

The discussion was about drafting a forward/ ruck . Not just a ruck

 

[Ants]

Depends if you want a slow forward line that leaks footy going the other way or if you want a bit of speed from a couple of them that puts on more pressure.
Geulfi got Wallas spot. I know who I prefer.

That’s a silly comparison. Walla was a top 40 in the league goal scorer while also putting on pressure and with elite disposal. He walked into any team in the league.

Guelfi/Snelling are plenty fast to provide pressure. Our issue was the mids playing forward, our structure/gameplan and medium forwards. But speed doesn’t help much if there is an outnumber.

 

[Ants]

I’d only use a rookie pick or cat b rookie on a ruck at the moment.

I actually think ruck is the one position you should not use a 30 top pick for (ideally later pick).

The exception would be if you don’t have a quality starting ruck. I’m which case I would trade one in as a ready made product.

Seems to me there is regularly a cheap solid ruck looking for opportunities most off seasons. Your better off trading for one of these if you need a back up or even a starting ruck.

Eg Witt’s Pruess lycette ladlams hickey Cameron then even players like ceglar Stanley fort & Ryder.

Grundy, Ryder, English were first round, Jackson pick #3, Gawn second round.

Anyone drafted this year will be 6 years younger than Draper. It is as much around succession planning as depth. And as Ant555 said, we’re talking a ruck/forward.

 

[ant555]

That’s a silly comparison. Walla was a top 40 in the league goal scorer while also putting on pressure and with elite disposal. He walked into any team in the league.

Guelfi/Snelling are plenty fast to provide pressure. Our issue was the mids playing forward, our structure/gameplan and medium forwards. But speed doesn’t help much if there is an outnumber.

It was not a comparison.
Guelfi ended up getting Wallas forward spot.

The forward speed is something I have payed a lot of attention to . I was looking at it so I could see the reasons we where so easy to move the ball against.

The fact is a lot of this year we had one midfielder playing forward at any one time.

Fact . In our forward set up this year was slow .

It had zero speed.

I base this on watching most of our Melbourne games live from level 3 behind the goals and also watching other teams live to compare.
Also watch the games back on the computer via Kayo a couple of times .

 

[Keystone agony]

If we can manage to keep next years first and get Keeler, Pick 4 and Davey then that would be a good haul

Keelers got some exceptional top end type talent. His competitvness doesnt quite seem there and im not sure if there is/isnt attitude concerns

Worth the risk at a pick in the 20s

Some of the things he does for a 198cm guy arnt seen by many at all

 

[fairbump_playon]

It was not a comparison.
Guelfi ended up getting Wallas forward spot.

The forward speed is something I have payed a lot of attention to . I was looking at it so I could see the reasons we where so easy to move the ball against.

The fact is a lot of this year we had one midfielder playing forward at any one time.

Fact . In our forward set up this year was slow .

It had zero speed.

Agree on this. Being fairly mobile and able to get up and back is irrelevant to proper forward pressure.

Defenders need to have a sense that they can never turn their back. Guelfi moves ok and is defensively committed but Walla had absolutely elite closing speed. For every tackle he made there would have been 5 rushed disposals just out of the fear of his presence.

No opposition defenders are losing sleep for fear of Guelfi and Snelling on the hunt together.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

If we can manage to keep next years first and get Keeler, Pick 4 and Davey then that would be a good haul

Keelers got some exceptional top end type talent. His competitvness doesnt quite seem there and im not sure if there is/isnt attitude concerns

Worth the risk at a pick in the 20s

Some of the things he does for a 198cm guy arnt seen by many at all

He's pretty much Ryder with lesser footskills. Great prospect but doubt he makes it that far. 12-16 type pick IMO.

 

[Keystone agony]

He's pretty much Ryder with lesser footskills. Great prospect but doubt he makes it that far. 12-16 type pick IMO.

I had him very high but have seen him down in Twomeys ratings which was a surprise. Wasnt in the top 25

 

[Keystone agony]

Dodoro has been trying to sort the small forward for a while with no success

With the way were set up id say we will always have a midfielder in the starting fwd 6 for the next 12 months atleast and then probably atleast 24 months which is fine and also a Nic Martin on top

Bedford would be a handy type pickup. Sheezel adds forward prowess not to sure about his defensive ability

Ideally only room for 1 of Guelf/Snelling. If both are playing in the same forward line im not sure were challenging

N.Cox - Reid - Laverde
Mcgrath - Ridley - Redman (Hind)

Langford - Parish - N.Martin (Durham)

Sheezel - H.Jones - Caldwell
Davey - Wright - Bedford (Hobbs)

Draper - Stringer - Z.Merrett (Shiel)

Emg: Perkins, Zerk, Kelly, Guelfi, Snelling

Is probably the side people are after

 

[Red Black and Blue]

I had him very high but have seen him down in Twomeys ratings which was a surprise. Wasnt in the top 25

That is a little surprising. I rate him around that Gibney, Hollands, George area. He likely projects as a Chol style forward, whose just kicked 44 goals and still has upside. Ridiculously good at ground level for his size. Plus there seems to be a dearth of genuine ruck/forwards going around atm.

 

[rusman]

The discussion was about drafting a forward/ ruck . Not just a ruck

Oh I read the discussion.

The post I quoted mentioned to the “need” to replace/draft Draper or Bryan who are both rucks.

“The problem isn't so much Bryan or Draper per se leaving. It's that if either left it leaves us with almost no ruck cover beyond a 31(?)yr old Phillips who averages a handful of games a year for his career.” Ants

So all points remain the same

 

[rusman]

Grundy, Ryder, English were first round, Jackson pick #3, Gawn second round.

Anyone drafted this year will be 6 years younger than Draper. It is as much around succession planning as depth. And as Ant555 said, we’re talking a ruck/forward.

Ryder was traded for a token pick late career. Which is what I was referring to.

I think you’ve furthered my point here also by your first example of a gun ruck being Grundy.

Isn’t he being forced out rn because the club would prefer to use the salary on a good mid/fwd/def and have a role player in the ruck?

Grundy is a perfect example to support my point . He is a gun but you don’t spend top coin or picks on rucks.

Particularly in our case when you have two young promising ones.

Apart from gawn/english rest you mentioned all have been or will be traded. So that would support trading in a ready made one yeah?

“6 years away” - Yep Bryan will be what 26? Draper couple years older. No need to be wasting a early pick on a ruck then. Go with a rookie 3 times over before you waiste one here

Moving on.

 

[Milanista28]

I hope Cadman falls to us, I'd take him. I also want to get in front of the 1st Davey bid to take a midfielder. I'd love to target the suns pick 7.

 

[Keystone agony]

I hope Cadman falls to us, I'd take him. I also want to get in front of the 1st Davey bid to take a midfielder. I'd love to target the suns pick 7.

How?

 

[faible]

How?

F1 is the only way the Suns would relinquish a Top-10 selection that I could see.

 

[AsterixTheGaul]

Looking at the draft haul you had from 2019 to 2021, I am sensing Essendon really need speed. To that extent, it comes down to Sheezel and Tsatas as the 2 players in this draft that would really add benefit to your list. I sense that they are likely to both be off the board prior to your pick 4 (becomes 5 post Ashcroft). With the loss of McDonald-Tipungwuti and Devon-Smith further exposes the lack of speed.

I also see that you have Davey Jnr who is now being touted as a late first rounder and will need points.

Two things come to mind.
1. There is value in trading up to pick 2 to ensure you get one of Tsatas or Sheezel. Wardlaw is sliding with dodgy hammies and the other talent likely at 4 is similar to Hobbs and Perkins. Unless you go a tall, (Cadman or Busslinger) I am seeing pick 4 as being a bit in no mans land.
2. There is no point in holding pick 22 when/if Davey gets bid on before then and it becomes a points play.

Meanwhile West Coast needs every sort of midfield option and will have to stretch the rebuild over another 2 to 3 drafts (2021 was a good start for us). We got good outside speed last year with Hough and Chesser but would be reaching for Clark/Phillipou/Hewett at 2. Insides mids is what we need and there are similar midfield options likely at both 20 and 22.

My proposal would be a trade of 2 and 38 for 4 and 22. It is about a 100 points to the favour of Essendon.

Why would Essendon do it? You are guaranteed one of the 2 top end talents that have genuine speed. You are not going to use 22 so why not cash it out to get up the order. Pick 38 comes with 465 points which is not far from what your will need for the discount with Davey Jnr.

Why would West Coast do it? We need more mids and that would give us a decent B grade possible mid at 20 and 22 to add to a Clark/Phillipou. In prior drafts, the cost to jump from 4 to 2 would be much higher. We got Port's second rounder to drop back 2 spots in the early second round last year.



Thought?

 

[faible]

Looking at the draft haul you had from 2019 to 2021, I am sensing Essendon really need speed. To that extent, it comes down to Sheezel and Tsatas as the 2 players in this draft that would really add benefit to your list. I sense that they are likely to both be off the board prior to your pick 4 (becomes 5 post Ashcroft). With the loss of McDonald-Tipungwuti and Devon-Smith further exposes the lack of speed.

I also see that you have Davey Jnr who is now being touted as a late first rounder and will need points.

Two things come to mind.
1. There is value in trading up to pick 2 to ensure you get one of Tsatas or Sheezel. Wardlaw is sliding with dodgy hammies and the other talent likely at 4 is similar to Hobbs and Perkins. Unless you go a tall, (Cadman or Busslinger) I am seeing pick 4 as being a bit in no mans land.
2. There is no point in holding pick 22 when/if Davey gets bid on before then and it becomes a points play.

Meanwhile West Coast needs every sort of midfield option and will have to stretch the rebuild over another 2 to 3 drafts (2021 was a good start for us). We got good outside speed last year with Hough and Chesser but would be reaching for Clark/Phillipou/Hewett at 2. Insides mids is what we need and there are similar midfield options likely at both 20 and 22.

My proposal would be a trade of 2 and 38 for 4 and 22. It is about a 100 points to the favour of Essendon.

Why would Essendon do it? You are guaranteed one of the 2 top end talents that have genuine speed. You are not going to use 22 so why not cash it out to get up the order. Pick 38 comes with 465 points which is not far from what your will need for the discount with Davey Jnr.

Why would West Coast do it? We need more mids and that would give us a decent B grade possible mid at 20 and 22 to add to a Clark/Phillipou. In prior drafts, the cost to jump from 4 to 2 would be much higher. We got Port's second rounder to drop back 2 spots in the early second round last year.

View attachment 1509464

Thought?

My guess is they'll be using 22 to try to trade up to get another first prior to the Davey bid, not using it to trade 4 up to 2. The aim would / should be to get #4, <insert mid-first rounder here via trade>, Davey Jnr. Then the other Davey twin late in the draft and maybe another pick.

Wardlaw is similar-ish to Hobbs, neither are similar to Perkins though.

 

[The Prosecutor]

Looking at the draft haul you had from 2019 to 2021, I am sensing Essendon really need speed. To that extent, it comes down to Sheezel and Tsatas as the 2 players in this draft that would really add benefit to your list. I sense that they are likely to both be off the board prior to your pick 4 (becomes 5 post Ashcroft). With the loss of McDonald-Tipungwuti and Devon-Smith further exposes the lack of speed.

I also see that you have Davey Jnr who is now being touted as a late first rounder and will need points.

Two things come to mind.
1. There is value in trading up to pick 2 to ensure you get one of Tsatas or Sheezel. Wardlaw is sliding with dodgy hammies and the other talent likely at 4 is similar to Hobbs and Perkins. Unless you go a tall, (Cadman or Busslinger) I am seeing pick 4 as being a bit in no mans land.
2. There is no point in holding pick 22 when/if Davey gets bid on before then and it becomes a points play.

Meanwhile West Coast needs every sort of midfield option and will have to stretch the rebuild over another 2 to 3 drafts (2021 was a good start for us). We got good outside speed last year with Hough and Chesser but would be reaching for Clark/Phillipou/Hewett at 2. Insides mids is what we need and there are similar midfield options likely at both 20 and 22.

My proposal would be a trade of 2 and 38 for 4 and 22. It is about a 100 points to the favour of Essendon.

Why would Essendon do it? You are guaranteed one of the 2 top end talents that have genuine speed. You are not going to use 22 so why not cash it out to get up the order. Pick 38 comes with 465 points which is not far from what your will need for the discount with Davey Jnr.

Why would West Coast do it? We need more mids and that would give us a decent B grade possible mid at 20 and 22 to add to a Clark/Phillipou. In prior drafts, the cost to jump from 4 to 2 would be much higher. We got Port's second rounder to drop back 2 spots in the early second round last year.

View attachment 1509464

Thought?

Sign me up.

 

[ant555]

Oh I read the discussion.

The post I quoted mentioned to the “need” to replace/draft Draper or Bryan who are both rucks.

“The problem isn't so much Bryan or Draper per se leaving. It's that if either left it leaves us with almost no ruck cover beyond a 31(?)yr old Phillips who averages a handful of games a year for his career.” Ants

So all points remain the same

You missed the part about Ants saying they may need replacing because one may have a lack of game time.
It was more about drafting a forward ruck.

 

[AsterixTheGaul]

My guess is they'll be using 22 to try to trade up to get another first prior to the Davey bid, not using it to trade 4 up to 2. The aim would / should be to get #4, <insert mid-first rounder here via trade>, Davey Jnr. Then the other Davey twin late in the draft and maybe another pick.

Wardlaw is similar-ish to Hobbs, neither are similar to Perkins though.

Would you be prepared to dip into 2023 picks? The cost to go from 22 to say 15 (I think is the minimum you would want to land a pick before the threat of the Davey becomes real) will be massive - possibly a future second rounder. The 2023 draft is really strong and I am seeing what you would get for late teens in 2022 will be similar to what is there for mid to late 20's in 2023.

Lions pick of somewhere between 15 to 18 will come with a 500 + points premium (Suns ready to pounce with massive points already) and your later picks of 40 and 58 aren't getting you any traction. My reading of the draft is that there are some real gems likely to be there in the mid teens and clubs will price their picks accordingly. The likes of Hewett, Humphreys, Hollands, Jefferson, Hotton etc...