Team Rd 1

[Allefgib]

I think a couple of key things that factor into this debate and how AFC seem to be opposed to other teams like Collingwood and Freo in the examples provided (anyone care to dig up Bullies, Saints, Cats for us??)

1. We play a different game plan to these other teams. Do we believe our phyiscal fitness needs to be at a higher level to execute? Looks like we do - having said that collingwood applied far more pressure that we did far more consistently in recent times... so maybe that can be thrown out?
2. We overload our new players on the track. We've had reports confirming we have and that its led to injuries. Does this prevent us giving as many games as other clubs who possibly aren't as demanding. I'd suggest yes. And I think it should stop
3. Do the AFC have an objective to win games more than trying to win finals. I've argued elsewhere I think they might - and this is a cocnern of mine. If this is true their ends justify their means. But are they the ends we all want..... whislt we keep buying memberships the club will say YES. What was that about our members numbers this year....??

 

[Bovo]

I think a couple of key things that factor into this debate and how AFC seem to be opposed to other teams like Collingwood and Freo in the examples provided (anyone care to dig up Bullies, Saints, Cats for us??)

Bullies, Saints and Cats were bottom side teams for a number of years. All it proves is that if you stay on the bottom long enough you get back up with better teams. Although it may be worth stating that Richmond are the exception

 

[ringo200]

This has been happening for years with Malthouse. It wasn't just last season. Though there is no way O'Bree, Presti or Lockyer would have played SANFL (or been delisted) under Craig. There is no way Sidebottom or Beams would have played matches in their first season. There's no way Craig would have debuted 10 payers during a finals year.

How many senior players have played SANFL football under Craig? There is barely a single example over six full seasons of coaching. Has their form been that good?

Edwards was dropped last year, Porplyzia was dropped twice. I'm reluctant to mention Burton because I was pretty upset when he was playing in Walker's place and my memory might not be right here but didn't we leave him in the SANFL long after he had returned from injury and fit later on in the year?

Shane O' Bree was a lock in Malthouse's side for years despite never being a top line player, until his form dropped off in 2010. I'd say he was overtaken, not rotated to give a kid a go. In 2009 he played 25 games for 22 touches a game. In 2010 he got 16 posessions a game.

Presti was injured moreso than rotated and was named for the GF side.

Lockyer 2009 played 25 games averaging 19.5 disposals and 1.3 goals a game. 2010 he averaged 14.8 touches and .5 goals a game.

All were on the way out, much like Edwards.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of these or forgetting someone but in 2009, a year we finished a kick away from Collingwood we debuted:

1. Walker (14 games)
2. Cook (3 games)
3. Petrenko (9 games)
4. Martin (2 games)
5. McKernan (1 game)
6. Sloane (1 game)

As well as that we had Dangerfield and Otten come into the season on 2 games and play every game they were fit for. Sellar, Mackay and Tippett (who was no star coming into '09) were all given every opportunity.

Davis you could probably make a case earned his debut through good consistent SANFL performances but thats about it, and it doesn't seem to have hurt Davis' development at all.

Maybe it isn't as extreme as Collingwood but surely you would have to have the right quality players to be able to blood ten players and still make the finals, otherwise it would be happening frequently.

I think you do have some points, and I do think Malthouse is more likely to back in the younger guy than Craig, but I don't think the difference is as big as you're making it out to be.

RE: Walker, I struggle to see how dropping him is a case of Craig preferring the senior guy over the potentially good young guy, wanting to win this week over development of youth. Walker 2010 particularly is best 22, forget age, forget potential, even for every time he didn't keep his opponent boundary side, the player that Walker was last year was best 22, clearly. He improved our team, he came second in our goalkicking. I think Craig was prepared to take the hit to the 22 in the short term for what he thought was best for Walker's development.

Whether it actually is whats best for his development is another argument but I'd like to think Craig has a better idea of the character of Walker than I do and is a smart enough man to know what sort of effect it will have on him.

I would hate to think it could lead to him heading to GWS though.

 

[cmndstab]

The other players are in good form... it's a tough away trip, not the time to debut a youngster... we're winning so no need to make changes... we're playing xxxx team so who would he match up against... we needed to go with the extra tall... his SANFL team had the bye last week so he'll be a bit rusty... we're playing a big-bodied team...

Some of these are good excuses, but a couple of them... has anyone here actually said that playing away or against a big-bodied team is a bad time to debut a youngster? My memory is that we seem to always bring in our new kids to play Geelong away, or to debut in a Showdown, or something liek that.


The SANFL bye is a massive bugbear of mine. It always seems to bite us on the ass, and we're too stubborn to plan around it.

 

[Allefgib]

.. we're too stubborn to plan around it.

Nail. Hammer. Head.
(for one of our key problems).

We have to be better than that. Sure Neil - we do. But often we aren't. So how about living with the reality and working with it rather than aspiring to 'be better' and falling short of a desired goal all the time.

Attitudes like that are breaking our back at times IMO.

 

[johnnypanther]

How do people think this team would go?

Pretty green. Would it get slaughtered?

B Johncock Rutten Otten
HB Petrenko Davis van Berlo
C Vince Dangerfield Mackay
HF Douglas McKernan Knights
F Porplyzia Tippett Walker
1R Jacobs S. Thompson Sloane
INT Jaensch Smith Henderson
SUB Tambling

Not picked: Armstrong, Callinan, Cook, Craig, Doughty, Gunston, Lyons, Maric, Moran, Reilly, Sellar, Shaw, Stevens, Symes, Talia, L. Thompson, Young

Would finish around 10th at best, with 12th-13th more likely. Definitely wouldn't make the finals. Too inexperienced.

IMO that side would be more likely to win a final and/or a premiership by the end of the year, if they play together for the season.

I would have Tambling in my starting 21 and probably would have either Jaensch/Porplycia replaced by Reilly with some positional changes.

 

[earlsta]

People leaving out Martin has rocks in their head, he's the exact player we need...breaking the lines constantly. Think McKay with more speed, more raw, others will have to make way for him I don't care who it is.

But if he's playing SANFL next year, he will seriously be knocking down the door straight away.

 

[Allefgib]

People leaving out Martin has rocks in their head, he's the exact player we need...breaking the lines constantly. Think McKay with more speed, more raw, others will have to make way for him I don't care who it is.

But if he's playing SANFL next year, he will seriously be knocking down the door straight away.

I'd have Martin ahead of McKay at the moment. More 'recent' good form and isn't under an injury cloud.

 

[Godallblighty]

Might get your wish. A groin injury and no pre-season does not bode well for McKay. No reason to play underdone players this year...I hope.

 

[Allefgib]

Not a wish mate - I actually wish Mackay wasn't injured and put in a season delivering on his promsie. That's what I wish.

Right now I'd have Martin ahead of Mckay in picking my side for round 1.

 

[Campbell's Chunky]

Not a wish mate - I actually wish Mackay wasn't injured and put in a season delivering on his promsie. That's what I wish.

Right now I'd have Martin ahead of Mckay in picking my side for round 1.

Would you have Martin for Mackay if both were 100% fit?

 

[Allefgib]

I'd need to see some form from Mackay first. Martin hasn't put a foot wrong since coming back into the side.

I think Mackay could be a gun.. shown less than Walker so far

 

[Campbell's Chunky]

I'd need to see some form from Mackay first. Martin hasn't put a foot wrong since coming back into the side.

I think Mackay could be a gun.. shown less than Walker so far

Wow..... Just wow....

I'd seriously have him in our top 3 or 4 midfielders. So underrated.

In terms of pure footballing ability I'd have him above even someone like Van Berlo and almost on par with a Bernie Vince when both at their best.

Let's not forget a game like this. He was exceptional, I still have it in my head as one of the best games played by a young crow in the past 5 years. In a losing side too.

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/games/2009/011920090516.html

Also he was very very good in the semi final against Collingwood that year too. Probably 2nd best behind Kurt Tippett, really killed it in the midfield that nut.

So yes, he can still play very very good football when the heat is on. Not a downhill player.

 

[Allefgib]

I said - he could be a gun! The games you refer to he showed that.

Tex also kicked 5 in a half against the Hawks - but he's still yet to become a gun. Same goes for Mackay given he hasn't been able to string together a full stretch of gunnage (aka Vince 2009). Even Vince then went backwards last year.

Martin has also shown quite alot - remember his game vs Saints last year?

You're assuming when 100% fit Mackay is going to set things alight again. I think there's a good chance he will - all I said was I'd want to see him show that before picking him ahead of martin at the moment. 'showing it' could be setting the track on fire to btw.

 

[cmndstab]

I agree Allef - his lackluster 2010 season showed us the gap between what a fit Mackay can do (as demonstrated by his excellent 2009) and what an unfit Mackay can do. I'd want to see him demonstrate that he's ready to go back to his 09 form, whether it be on the training track, during a NAB Cup match, or in the SANFL. Once he does, he's straight into the side.


Martin on the other hand hasn't done a thing wrong since returning from injury. Can't see any reason to keep him out of the side. When Mackay is ready to come back, both stay in for mine.

 

[WALL-e]

Both in my 22.

 

[Mad Fan of AFL]

Both in my 22.

i like this. I like what both of them bring to the side.

 

[Coopers]

Both in my 22.

Mine too, but Mackay needs to be fully fit, not half done.

 

[Bovo]

Mine too, but Mackay needs to be fully fit, not half done.

And that is what separates him from being a superstar. I remember Judd coming back in for his first game against us last year. He was not 100% in his match fitness and still killed us. When a superstar is half fit, they often play like a "standard" midfielder. But MacKay is still very young and has a lot of improvement ahead of him.

 

[Mego Red]

Both in my 22.

Show it ...

 

[Allefgib]

I agree Allef - his lackluster 2010 season showed us the gap between what a fit Mackay can do (as demonstrated by his excellent 2009) and what an unfit Mackay can do. I'd want to see him demonstrate that he's ready to go back to his 09 form, whether it be on the training track, during a NAB Cup match, or in the SANFL. Once he does, he's straight into the side.


Martin on the other hand hasn't done a thing wrong since returning from injury. Can't see any reason to keep him out of the side. When Mackay is ready to come back, both stay in for mine.

Yep.

FYI never said I wouldn't have both in my side..... but was asked to comment on between the two

 

[cmndstab]

Yep.

FYI never said I wouldn't have both in my side..... but was asked to comment on between the two

I know, mate

 

[WALL-e]

Show it ...

I'll show me mine if you show me yours.....

 

[Vader]

I'll show me mine if you show me yours.....

I couldn't fit both of them in.. I have Mackay in the best 22 and Martin on the emergency list (playing in R1 due to the expected absence of Vince & Mackay):

My stab at our best 22 is as follows:
FB: Johncock Rutten Stevens
HB: Doughty Davis Tambling
C: Mackay Thompson van Berlo
HF: Henderson Walker Knights
FF: Porplyzia Tippett Dangerfield
R: Jacobs Vince Otten
Int: Reilly Douglas Moran Sloane (sub)

...................

My R1 team therefore becomes:
FB: Johncock Rutten Stevens
HB: Doughty Davis Tambling
C: Martin Thompson van Berlo
HF: Henderson Walker Knights
FF: Porplyzia Tippett Dangerfield
R: Jacobs Reilly Otten
Int: Douglas Moran Sloane Callinan (sub)

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

I couldn't fit both of them in..

That's what she said.....I'll do mine latter (TWSS)